Electrostatic charge buildup?? How???
If used as filters, your case will either connect to ground, or to the -pole of the PSU, where any reasonably built PSU with low Zout will handle it..
In the signal path..well, In ESD safe working env. we use grounding straps and mats with 10Megohm resistors to ground...What impedances exists inside an audio amp??? What would happen to your transistors etc IF there was any static build up ???
Electrostatic charge buildup ?? Forget it!!
Did I try to measaure this "naked" effekt??
No, Nuuk, -- for obvious reasons....
If used as filters, your case will either connect to ground, or to the -pole of the PSU, where any reasonably built PSU with low Zout will handle it..
In the signal path..well, In ESD safe working env. we use grounding straps and mats with 10Megohm resistors to ground...What impedances exists inside an audio amp??? What would happen to your transistors etc IF there was any static build up ???
Electrostatic charge buildup ?? Forget it!!
Did I try to measaure this "naked" effekt??
No, Nuuk, -- for obvious reasons....
Nuuk said:
Well, with respect then you can't say that it can't be measured! The reasons may be 'obvious' to you, eg you don't have a scope, but not to me!
I'm not trying to be pedantic here but I have watched enough of these threads where all we get is opinion which leads us nowhere (useful)!
It is hard to do measurements when you don't know what you are looking for!
Someone needs to invent an "It sounds better" meter, because that is is the claimed effect - or similar unquantifyables.
FWIW, Nuuk, I actually agree ( or I think I do ).......
Remember, we are not disputing factual component quality, but statements that are repeatedly claimed to be factual, but without any accompanying technical or solid scientific proof or explanation, - not even an attempt to do so either.
As an engineer, with more than 30 years in the science field, I clearly (?) reside in the camp that believes such explanations can be found, if the effect exists. More than any other market I can think of, audio is packed with all sorts o f strange claims, with no evidence to follow, - maybe except for the prices.
If someone makes a loudspeaker, there will always be sound! Whether it's good or bad, is actually entirely up to the builder / listener himself to decide, but if you claim it is better than this or that, and expect recognition of your claim, you must be able to give an explanation based on common and known reasons. If you indeed really have a new invention, even this has to be followed by an explanation based on already known terms. This is the nature of science and technology.
That's why I don't believe in ghosts either.
Ending now, with the last frame of any french movie:
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Remember, we are not disputing factual component quality, but statements that are repeatedly claimed to be factual, but without any accompanying technical or solid scientific proof or explanation, - not even an attempt to do so either.
As an engineer, with more than 30 years in the science field, I clearly (?) reside in the camp that believes such explanations can be found, if the effect exists. More than any other market I can think of, audio is packed with all sorts o f strange claims, with no evidence to follow, - maybe except for the prices.
If someone makes a loudspeaker, there will always be sound! Whether it's good or bad, is actually entirely up to the builder / listener himself to decide, but if you claim it is better than this or that, and expect recognition of your claim, you must be able to give an explanation based on common and known reasons. If you indeed really have a new invention, even this has to be followed by an explanation based on already known terms. This is the nature of science and technology.
That's why I don't believe in ghosts either.
Ending now, with the last frame of any french movie:
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- ...........................~ FIN ~.......................................-
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The correct scientific answer is: it depends. Caps have a non-trivial leakage capacitance between leads and case. A skinned cap will shunt that leakage to ground if, for example, directly fixed to a chassis as commonly happens in point to point. In a power supply this might be a good thing, interstage not so good. On the other hand, my measurements of supplies running large, metal-cased oil caps revealed a floating case is susceptible RF pickup. Grounding the case of a skinned PS cap might be a very good idea.
'That there' is scientific reasoning based on experimental experience as opposed to the reflexive negative reaction that passes for 'skepticism' in these here parts.
'That there' is scientific reasoning based on experimental experience as opposed to the reflexive negative reaction that passes for 'skepticism' in these here parts.
My guess is it's extremely circuit dependent. I first discovered it poking around a tube amp which used a metal-cased cap strapped to chassis in an interstage position. It measured 70 pf each leg to case, potential poison for a driver swinging 200 volts p-p. Interestingly enough, the military Russian metal-clad Teflon caps popular with the tube crowd are built in such a manner to 'float' the cap body from the case in mid-air by the solder pins, minimizing the issue using the best reasonable dielectric. That suggests it's a well known issue.
In a power supply a further guess is the 1.3 uF leakage is of approximately the same quality the main cap (same dielectric) but with a much higher self resonance due to a two orders of magnitude lower value. Tying a skinned cap case to ground may inadvertenly provide a 1.3 uF bypass to the main 1000 uF cap. To complicate it further still, this may become a bad thing if followed by a common-mode RF choke since it effectively shorts the CM negative leg at high frequencies.
In other words, whether the leakage is a good or bad thing depends on being aware of its impact on your particular circuit. In the case of Peter Daniel's circuit, I can see a logic behind the mounting as it greatly reduces any potential impact of leakage and provides some anti-microphonic measures. I'll leave the audibility to others.
In a power supply a further guess is the 1.3 uF leakage is of approximately the same quality the main cap (same dielectric) but with a much higher self resonance due to a two orders of magnitude lower value. Tying a skinned cap case to ground may inadvertenly provide a 1.3 uF bypass to the main 1000 uF cap. To complicate it further still, this may become a bad thing if followed by a common-mode RF choke since it effectively shorts the CM negative leg at high frequencies.
In other words, whether the leakage is a good or bad thing depends on being aware of its impact on your particular circuit. In the case of Peter Daniel's circuit, I can see a logic behind the mounting as it greatly reduces any potential impact of leakage and provides some anti-microphonic measures. I'll leave the audibility to others.
Nuuk said:
When you say 'we' are you talking for everybody else?
Please tell us how you tried to measure it?
Nuuk.
why nobody actually measured it
well,
there are some things some claims
that are
so unlikely
or illogical
or very little probable
or so stupid
or so out of reality
based on
known knowledge
and facts
and empiric knowledge
and scientific investigations
that it makes no sense in checking if it is true or nor
it would be a
waste of time
and effort
and even doing a check
would make you
a fool
somebody to laugh at
a village idiot
---------------------------------------------------------
for example
if somebody says to me
sun will not rise tomorrow
or
the planet earth is flat
or
there is a human that can fly using only his arms in London
...
at least I
do not feel any greater urge, desire
to bother with it or try to find out if this is true
maybe some audio grade audiophile would go for it
like they believe in black coloured caps
are having a better sound
than other colours
but I wont bother to paint my electrolytic capacitors black
I will use good film caps instead
like PolyPropylen MKP or PolyEster MKT
or
normal industry standard electrolytics
when the value needed is too high for film caps
nobody will ever be able to convince me to do otherwise
because I want my amplifiers to be as good as possible
without costing me more than necessary
but if you believe in BLACK MAGIC
and have unlimited money to spend for your audio hobby
and are not interested in getting best performance
you do whatever - nobody can stop you anyway
you can replace all your caps with BLACK WONDERS if you like
even buy them ready BLACK PAINTED for much money
if you do not want to paint them yourself
to save your moneyyou do that
it wont bother me
wont effect my mind and take way what I know, what I have learned
of the facts and figures of using capacitance in audio amplifiers
==========================================
There are unexplored areas of reality
there are those who does not know
all the facts of physics and the branch of physics
that is called electricity and electronics
but for anybody here in forum
with basic knowledge in audio electronics
such a test as trying to measure any difference
between a cap with or without plastic wrapping
is
pointless
meaningless
and
makes no sense
and if there happens to be any slight difference measured
or visible by oscilloscope
it would be so extremely small
that you would not be able to claim
it depends on the capacitor under test
or your test setup, your testing devices
===============================
this is actually the correct word for it:
S E N S E to be sensible
at one's full senses
including whatever intelligence you posses
whatever little knowledge you have earned
some thing just
don't make sense
it is common sense
not to be superstitious
as someone here put it
not to believe in ghosts or woodoo magic powers
just because nobody can prove
such mythical things does NOT exists
does not mean they exists or even can exists
but as long as they are NOT proven to exists
most of us will use our common sense
and stick to believing in things we actually know exists
by the logic of
what is said in every just court of law:
beyond
reasonable
doubt
reason
whatever mechanism
there is a reason for it
and this reason can be investigated
and the mechanism can be explained
and it will make sense to a sensible person
--------------------
there is always cause behind an effect
there has to be
even children are logical
to understand this
when you tell a child something is like this or that
your child will ask: WHY
and when you tell WHY
child will ask: why WHY
because children are born wise
born with a desire to want to know the reason for things
they wont believe in unreasonable things so easy
children want to know about reality
about cause of an effect
to be able to understand the reality
in which they will have to try to survive
as best they can
with as good knowledge about mechanisms of reality
as possible
----------------------------------------------------
the sun goes up
and we can see it
because it exists
and because sun is not too far from our planet
we can see the sun
and earth is having its
revolving travel around the sun
not the other way
like they believed long time ago
lineup
makes sensewhile
living in reality here
You guys brought up measurement so here's a good one on how this can quickly break down to the extreme.
http://tangentsoft.net/audio/resmatch.html
Nope....sorry I don't have $1,000 multimeter
http://tangentsoft.net/audio/resmatch.html
Nope....sorry I don't have $1,000 multimeter
Any basic, scientific, unbiased understanding of the construction of common electrolytics makes the notion of capacitance to case an obvious 'duh' in hindsight. It's probably part of the reason caps are skinned in the first place. That's science. Saying there was no reason to look or comparisons to ridiculous extremes are examples of logical fallacies and anti-science. Science is a method guys, not a stance or a badge. The latter are by definition not-science.
Funny thing is that some of the more well-versed electronic guys here are pretty happy in their "superior" grasp of science.
"Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers." - Bernhard Haisch, astrophysicist
Let's not stop asking questions because the "keepers" of the knowledge tell us that it's all been already figured out and the rest is gibberish
"Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers." - Bernhard Haisch, astrophysicist
Let's not stop asking questions because the "keepers" of the knowledge tell us that it's all been already figured out and the rest is gibberish
[Nope....sorry I don't have $1,000 multimeter
Well, I do, -and it's calibrated once a year, traceable to NBS standards, and every now and then it really does come in handy.. Not much use for cap's though
( I do take it you understand it's not exactly mine to keep, though........)
By all means a fully sound and truly scientific attitude, but when we do find something, there is a definate need of an explanation, by the finder or someone else, - eventually.....Let's not stop asking questions because the "keepers" of the knowledge tell us that it's all been already figured out and the rest is gibberish
Otherwise we are in the department of postulates and beliefs.
And since we are rapidly approaching the primary season of all beliefs, how is this for a scientific attidude?? It's all up to you to decide what you believe.. ( although each contender of this thread declaring his beliefs could be quite interesting. This has quite a strong resemblance to the capacitor debate !! )
http://www.theittlist.com/site/ittlist/ind/1786/
and here's another one , backed by several norwegian scientists ( no joke ) . They are uniquely responsible for their own arguments, though....
http://www.physorg.com/news2487.html
If you see someone on the street who has blue eyes and say to them "My, what lovely blue eyes you have!" and their reply is "My eyes are brown", do you try to convince them that their eyes are blue or do you recognize the mistake you've made in starting a conversation with them and keep moving?
(the scenario just described involves two "normal" people, not two secret agents trying to identify each other)
I prefer to keep moving.
I_F
(the scenario just described involves two "normal" people, not two secret agents trying to identify each other)
I prefer to keep moving.
I_F
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