Another stereo microphone arrangement is the OSS disk by Juerg Jecklin.
Some info about it can be found here : http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html
Regards
Charles
Some info about it can be found here : http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html
Regards
Charles
JECKLIN.
Hi,
Thanks, Charles.
Tonmeister (recording engineer) Juerg Jecklin has (had?) his own lable and also put to market an excellent electrostatic headphone.
His recordings are also typified by apparantly simple miking techniques.
Another famous little label is Andre Charlin from the fifties, sixties. I think someone actually put a virtual museum with his recording on the net but I'll need to look it up again.
Cheers,
Hi,
Thanks, Charles.
Tonmeister (recording engineer) Juerg Jecklin has (had?) his own lable and also put to market an excellent electrostatic headphone.
His recordings are also typified by apparantly simple miking techniques.
Another famous little label is Andre Charlin from the fifties, sixties. I think someone actually put a virtual museum with his recording on the net but I'll need to look it up again.
Cheers,
Hi Frank
A friend of mine is actually using such a thingie. I haven't had the opportunity to hear many of his recordings. The artists are mainly some colleagues of his and the music is mainly choral works and jazz.
I once heard a recording of an amateur choir that was made in a church using the OSS and a DAT and that one sounded very good (apart from some false notes).
Mr. Jecklin's headphones were called Jecklin Float. There was a cheaper dynamic type and an expensive electrostatic one available.
BTW: Mr. Jecklin was always a strong proponenent of multichannel recording techniques.
I once posted a link to the site of an Austrian school for recording engineers where you can download his student handouts for free.
Regards
Charles
A friend of mine is actually using such a thingie. I haven't had the opportunity to hear many of his recordings. The artists are mainly some colleagues of his and the music is mainly choral works and jazz.
I once heard a recording of an amateur choir that was made in a church using the OSS and a DAT and that one sounded very good (apart from some false notes).
Mr. Jecklin's headphones were called Jecklin Float. There was a cheaper dynamic type and an expensive electrostatic one available.
BTW: Mr. Jecklin was always a strong proponenent of multichannel recording techniques.
I once posted a link to the site of an Austrian school for recording engineers where you can download his student handouts for free.
Regards
Charles
Interesting... I wish I had more hands-on experience with this. The majority of my experience is with my band(s), and any personal recording I've done by myself.
I do remember reading somewhat recently that Telarc was using the dummy head on one of their newer recordings. I will have to figure out which one it is, and see if I can hear what you're saying.
about the mid-side pair...
is this the setup where you use a stereo pair and an out of phase center microphone to control the soundstage?
Where do you guys find you info on these techniques? Good stuff!
SOME LINKS.
Hi,
I wouldn't know but I always had thought the idea for the OSS technique was to reduce crosstalk at higher frequencies and to capture the entire event from a single pair of crossed mikes.
Probably my wishful thinking, yet the few records I have do not sound as if they were multitrack recordings.
Probably the papers Charles referred to?
Charlin Museum
Cheers,
Hi,
I wouldn't know but I always had thought the idea for the OSS technique was to reduce crosstalk at higher frequencies and to capture the entire event from a single pair of crossed mikes.
Probably my wishful thinking, yet the few records I have do not sound as if they were multitrack recordings.
Probably the papers Charles referred to?
Charlin Museum
Cheers,
MORE CRAP...
Hi,
Most of what I know about it predates the internet days by at least ten years, still if you do some googling you'll unearth more than you'd ever care to read.
A PLACE TO START.
Ciao,
Hi,
Most of what I know about it predates the internet days by at least ten years, still if you do some googling you'll unearth more than you'd ever care to read.
A PLACE TO START.
Ciao,
M-S, when used with the traditional arrangement of a cardiod mid capsule and figure-8 side, essentially gives you an X-Y pattern (called a 'virtual pair') The advantage is that by ajusting the balance between the mid and side channels, you are able to change the angle of the two 'virtual pair' capsules to your taste without having to move the microphones or capsules. Pretty cool
There is a translation of some Dickreiter writings called Tonmeister Technology. I think its out of print but you should be able to dig up a copy somewhere.
Also, Jerry Bruck (the USA distributor of Shoepps microphones) has a book on classical recording techniques.... I forget the name but its a good book.
FWIW I think this stuff is very relevent to the topic of "why most recordings sound like crap". Solid recording techniques are becoming a lost art. Not to say that a rock band should be recorded directly to two-track with an OSS pair and no processing. But a recording is a recording and the principles of good sound are the same.
Michael
MMM... Much More M-S
In order to better describe M-S techniques, I whacked this together from a handful of images harvested from the web.
While some use a matrix to capture a fixed stereo image during recording, it is often preferable to record the discreet signals and to recover the stereo image after the performance.
Whether done through a matrix or on mix platform the recovery process is essentially the same.
The output of the side signal microphone (figure 8 pattern), is doubled and sent to two channels. One of the channels is phase inverted. The channels are panned left and right.
The mid signal (cardiod pattern) is sent to a third channel. By adjusting the pan and level of this channel with respect to the two side channels an accurate stereo image of the original event can be recreated while allowing for additional control of the apparent sizes and proximities within the image.
Kind of the way FM and MTS matrix signals work too (L+R, L-R).
Some of the magic and appeal for this technique comes from the tight proximity of the two microphone capsules. The closeness minimizes phase colorations caused by the time difference of the same wave reaching both capsules. It can be argued that M-S with Schoeps capsules (much smaller), will further enhance this effect.
Anyone notice that the outer ears are removable on the "little head"? It used to be that you could get castings of your own or a famous persons ears made to use with the head. It also allows for left and right outer ears to be interchanged if the head is used in an inverted position.
I learned a lot of this stuff from pestering Dave Moulton after he made the mistake of letting me into his acoustics class. He's written a good book on the subject: http://www.moultonlabs.com/
In order to better describe M-S techniques, I whacked this together from a handful of images harvested from the web.
While some use a matrix to capture a fixed stereo image during recording, it is often preferable to record the discreet signals and to recover the stereo image after the performance.
Whether done through a matrix or on mix platform the recovery process is essentially the same.
The output of the side signal microphone (figure 8 pattern), is doubled and sent to two channels. One of the channels is phase inverted. The channels are panned left and right.
The mid signal (cardiod pattern) is sent to a third channel. By adjusting the pan and level of this channel with respect to the two side channels an accurate stereo image of the original event can be recreated while allowing for additional control of the apparent sizes and proximities within the image.
Kind of the way FM and MTS matrix signals work too (L+R, L-R).
Some of the magic and appeal for this technique comes from the tight proximity of the two microphone capsules. The closeness minimizes phase colorations caused by the time difference of the same wave reaching both capsules. It can be argued that M-S with Schoeps capsules (much smaller), will further enhance this effect.
Anyone notice that the outer ears are removable on the "little head"? It used to be that you could get castings of your own or a famous persons ears made to use with the head. It also allows for left and right outer ears to be interchanged if the head is used in an inverted position.
I learned a lot of this stuff from pestering Dave Moulton after he made the mistake of letting me into his acoustics class. He's written a good book on the subject: http://www.moultonlabs.com/
Attachments
I agree completely.
But, it would be interesting to produce a rock band using more traditional techniques. I have a feeling that much could be done to produce a spectacular recording if you were to start with a critical analysis of the room, mic placement, etc.- start with a stereo pair (x-y, m-s, whatever works) and optimize that setup through placement. Use reflective or damping panels, etc. It would definitely take a lot of work and patience, but the results could be stunning! I'm sure this is done to an extent on every recording, but I wonder what the results would be if the emphasis was to use strictly acoustic means of shaping a recording... only using the minimum of mics needed. It is something I have always wanted to try. Maybe some day!
Steve
tbla said:you can't record a rock band like this......it would sound like loud music in a rehearsal room.....and its impossible to edit anything....
If everyone lived by what someone said can't be done and never tested the limits, there would never be anything new and great.
I wasn't talking about recording a whole band at once anyway. Multitracking could (should) be used, but why not combine more traditional ways of recording individual instruments with the multitracking process?
It's really easy to just say it wouldn't work, but until you really try it, don't put my ideas in your close-minded box of impossibilities.
Who, may I ask, are you anyway to shoot down anything so quickly? What is your exprerience in recording?It's this mentality that has brought us the stale overproduced garbage that they call mainstream music for the last 5-10 years!
As I mentioned before: It is not only the recording techniques themselves that are responsible for the crappy sound, the problems start at the true source of the music: composers, musicians ..... IMHO.
It has never been a disadvantage though to think about improvements on the technical side.
Regards
Charles
fdegrove:
Some of my favorite labels:
Fone http://www.fone.it/inizio.asp?lang=en
a standout, I had one only 87-F-04-CD1 Four Seasons.
***btw I can not find a U S source.***
I think this guy takes it to the limit of CD sound.
Dorian
AliaVox Lots of Jordi Savall
Astree
Harmonia Mundi
Lewis
Some of my favorite labels:
Fone http://www.fone.it/inizio.asp?lang=en
a standout, I had one only 87-F-04-CD1 Four Seasons.
***btw I can not find a U S source.***
I think this guy takes it to the limit of CD sound.
Dorian
AliaVox Lots of Jordi Savall
Astree
Harmonia Mundi
Lewis
FAVS
Hi,
Oh, yes. Fone is very good.
I used to buy them directly from the Belgian importer.
Astree is great for antique instrumental music, very well recorded.
You may like Proprius too.
Harmonia Mundi France was great: La foglia d'Espagna is still one of my favourite demo records.
The recordings made by the same sound engineer (I forget his name) are always well captured.
I am sure there are a host of other labels out there that deserve mention such as some smaller British labels, Hyperion and the famous Lyra.
Cheers,
Hi,
Oh, yes. Fone is very good.
I used to buy them directly from the Belgian importer.
Astree is great for antique instrumental music, very well recorded.
You may like Proprius too.
Harmonia Mundi France was great: La foglia d'Espagna is still one of my favourite demo records.
The recordings made by the same sound engineer (I forget his name) are always well captured.
I am sure there are a host of other labels out there that deserve mention such as some smaller British labels, Hyperion and the famous Lyra.
Cheers,
The Deaf Leading The Deaf....
I went to my GF's staff do recently, and afterwoods we all went to a nightclub where a young band was playing.
I must say that the live sound was CRAP, and drove me out the room quicksmart.
The youngsters liked it and stayed.
This is the stuff that youngsters are listening to, and then going home and listening to it on crappy shelf systems, and the cycle repeats.
Also most musos that I know do not have good replay systems.
Eric.
I went to my GF's staff do recently, and afterwoods we all went to a nightclub where a young band was playing.
I must say that the live sound was CRAP, and drove me out the room quicksmart.
The youngsters liked it and stayed.
This is the stuff that youngsters are listening to, and then going home and listening to it on crappy shelf systems, and the cycle repeats.
Also most musos that I know do not have good replay systems.
Eric.
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