The first engine in the Dodge Viper was basically a truck engine. Does that count?
I guess his analogy is kind of like this one: why would a speaker builder want the tools that a master cabinet craftsman uses?
IMHO, the only thing that matters is whether the TS parameters match the design requirements for the box you intend to use it/them in. Ideally that box would be part of a system designed for a "typical" listening room.
All of the large high efficiency woofers in vogue with the SE triode crowd (myself included) originally came from the pro world.
All of the large high efficiency woofers in vogue with the SE triode crowd (myself included) originally came from the pro world.
Here is my take on it. Walk around some place where they have live music. It could be a jazz or rock band playing in a club. Even if you are standing outside the door and you are half deaf anyone can know in a few seconds if the music is live or playing through a stereo. The difference is just obvious. Live music is just so much better. And guess what? The live sound is using pro audio drivers.
But really you don't need such large and sensitive speakers in a small living room. You'd blow the windows out with 10 watts of power
The very small excursion required by pro drivers usually means much lower distortion, less compression, and higher headroom. Music is full of peaks that need to be fully expressed in order to feel live. This is one of the reasons people love horns in their living rooms... The driver is just cruising along almost all the time. If you don't have the space for horns, then pro type direct radiators are just dandy in my opinion.
maybe only some of them
many of the new big woofers are designed to take exstreme 'beating'
thus they are made exstremely sturdy and stiff
the tendency is very clear to see, if you follow the market closely
its not hard to image what happens when such 'heavy' woofers are driven by lower level signal only
or said differently, what might not happen
that said
if you EQ a 35 hz/fs woofer, pushing it down to 20hz, ofcourse you are also feeding it with a lot more power
so maybe that really is the best way to make it move properly
but again, it also takes away the good aspects of the less moving woofer
It is true that many of them do not model well in the simulation software I use. Some of them are just horrible. The B&C 12PE32 I have for sale for example are really only good for horns. If you put them in a vented box, they basically have no bass below about 100Hz. But, on the other hand, the B&C 15BG100 models extremely well, with a very flat response @ 90+ dB in a vented enclosure down to 30Hz! (including estimated room gain) So, of course, some are good and some are not suitable for home hifi use.
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PA duty drivers are the opposite of "heavy".
They get some of that high efficiency from being low moving mass.
PA drivers will reproduce PA frequencies very loud for the big PA style audiences.
When it comes to domestic listening where reproduction of a very wide range of musical styles is required, the very high SPLs can be swapped to very wide LF bandwidth.
The trick is finding how to load a PA duty driver, to extend deep while sacrificing some of that unwanted SPL.
They get some of that high efficiency from being low moving mass.
PA drivers will reproduce PA frequencies very loud for the big PA style audiences.
When it comes to domestic listening where reproduction of a very wide range of musical styles is required, the very high SPLs can be swapped to very wide LF bandwidth.
The trick is finding how to load a PA duty driver, to extend deep while sacrificing some of that unwanted SPL.
usually what happens with low Qts
and yes, in pro conditions a big woofer really needs such low Qts to maintain control when pushed hard
so yes, it is going more and more in that direction
especially the new neo magnet designs makes it 'easier' to do
and pro amp power is getting bigger and cheaper every day
so that kind pushes it even further in that direction
this also means that Fs ressonance goes up on new designs
woofers that had 30Hz Fs last year, are made with 40Hz next year
is not really to our advantage
not good
Well, those are pretty big generalizations you are making about an entire industry. As with such broad ideas, there are always exceptions. I have found exceptional drivers in the pro area that are extremely useful for home hifi.
In fact I haven't designed with anything else, and I'm quite thrilled with the results.. My friends will grudgingly admit the results of my efforts at least sound OK.. Nothing wrong with using PA woofers in hifi--if you do it right
I have two Cerwin Vega PA woofers and checked their Fs, it was around 32Hz when I tested them in the box loaded isobarik (face to face). Tuned the 18" passive radiator to 21Hz and drive it with a Carver M1.5t. I've been using it for a year, it shakes the house, flexes the picture window and rattles the doors. Musician friends have commented how clean it sounds...the isobarik loading knocks the efficiency down 3dB over a single woofer but I had efficiency to spare--but not 7 cubic feet!
Cerwin Vega home speakers are very loud and very large beasts....they mimic pro sound speakers in the first place... as long as the crossover matches the speakers correctly and the efficiency is the same--all is well.
Those guys that use 2 watt tube amps generally use PA speakers and horns to get the efficiency high enough to get the dynamics required. All depends on your wants, needs and if you like the end result.
My dream speakers are Danley Sound Labs synergy horns--they are PA speakers but sound amazing... Leave no stone unturned!
I have two Cerwin Vega PA woofers and checked their Fs, it was around 32Hz when I tested them in the box loaded isobarik (face to face). Tuned the 18" passive radiator to 21Hz and drive it with a Carver M1.5t. I've been using it for a year, it shakes the house, flexes the picture window and rattles the doors. Musician friends have commented how clean it sounds...the isobarik loading knocks the efficiency down 3dB over a single woofer but I had efficiency to spare--but not 7 cubic feet!
Cerwin Vega home speakers are very loud and very large beasts....they mimic pro sound speakers in the first place... as long as the crossover matches the speakers correctly and the efficiency is the same--all is well.
Those guys that use 2 watt tube amps generally use PA speakers and horns to get the efficiency high enough to get the dynamics required. All depends on your wants, needs and if you like the end result.
My dream speakers are Danley Sound Labs synergy horns--they are PA speakers but sound amazing... Leave no stone unturned!
Personally I have never heard a pa speaker used as home audio speakers sound anywhere close to GOOD. Pro pa drivers were designed to be tough and go loud. High quality hi fi speakers ( I'm not talking about the typical cheap hi fi speaker )
So many people confuse loud with sounding good. That is why over the last few years mastering engineers have been fighting a loudness war when mastering tracks because the average person percieves loud as sounding better. But it DOES NOT!!
I would eat my words if someone could let me listen to a speaker made from pa components that is cabable of any imaging. Its just not gonna happen. I have been listening to good home audio speakers and PA speakers for the last 40 years and I have yet to hear a pa speaker sound hi fi. Its like trying to get a 5 ton dumptruck to ride like a caddy. Sure you can take the dumptruck to the store to get grocerys but its still gona ride like a dumptruck becouse it was designed to haul not to ride nice.
I would not try to use hi fi drivers for a pa either.
Do you think they use PA speakers to mix in studios. Of course not. And that is for a good reason.
So many people confuse loud with sounding good. That is why over the last few years mastering engineers have been fighting a loudness war when mastering tracks because the average person percieves loud as sounding better. But it DOES NOT!!
I would eat my words if someone could let me listen to a speaker made from pa components that is cabable of any imaging. Its just not gonna happen. I have been listening to good home audio speakers and PA speakers for the last 40 years and I have yet to hear a pa speaker sound hi fi. Its like trying to get a 5 ton dumptruck to ride like a caddy. Sure you can take the dumptruck to the store to get grocerys but its still gona ride like a dumptruck becouse it was designed to haul not to ride nice.
I would not try to use hi fi drivers for a pa either.
Do you think they use PA speakers to mix in studios. Of course not. And that is for a good reason.
No one's confused; it's a proven fact that louder sounds better. If you disagree, you may have tinnitus. Or speakers that distort at high SPLs, which is likely the case if you listen only to hifi speakers.
I do agree that PA systems are generally dreadful when fed recorded music, as they sacrifice everything else for high SPLs and portability, but the bass drivers themselves are just speakers and if they have the specs you need I seriously doubt you could identify a Pro Audio driver in a well-designed hifi system.
I was always amused that one of the best selling speakers for so long was the JBL L-100. It didn't have real bass and the frequency response looked like a mountain range, but because it could play so loud, at normal levels it was exceptionally clean. It also had more dynamic range than anything of its size. Those features made it very easy to sell when compared to the boomboxes that came from Boston, but unfortunately that knowledge seems lost to history. (I'm not going to tell you how long ago this was, but I'll admit I did have a customer that bought only one because he still listened in mono!)
BTW, welcome to the forum!
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