JasonL said:
I should have said that the connectors to the power port on the laptop fail -- at least this has been our experience. we did have the entire power unit on one burn out just the other day. They get almost continuous use. Toshiba and Compaq use a pretty standard plug which you can buy at Radio Shack, Dell has a proprietary plug.
I do think very highly of the Powerbooks and I hope that this point is well taken.
sberube said:allright, lets stop this ranting about "bad memory management".
First off, I'm not a windows guy. I've been using unix's for over 14 years, and my main workstation is now an SGI Octane, so I'm not taking any sides on this.
The memory management done by the OS is VERY RARELY the problem. Windows 3.1 might have had some issues, but nowadays, you can forget about it. The job is very simple, find memory to store stuff, if there's none, use a standard page replacement alrorithm and drop stuff in the swap so you can use ram again. That's it, that's all. Now caching policies might change from one OS to another though.
What screws up your memory in windows are all them half witt programmers (I'm refering to 12 years old that build *software* in VB and distributes it) that can't write code properly. They don't check their code for memory leaks and then you check your task manager (don't get me started about this damn task manager) and a freaking ticker in your task bar eats up 200 megs of RAM. Now THAT ****es me off. And then you have malware, spyware and all that crap which, thanks to internet exploder, installs itself on your system without you knowing about it, and eats up 20-30 percent of your system's resources, and you end-up wondering why your system is so slow...
Anyways, that's my take on this. Take it or leave it, it won't make much difference to me at this point
yes good job clearing that up..
Just because someones program screws up windows, doesnt mean theres anything wrong with windows itself. Look to the programs your using first, use task manager to analyze ram usage and cpu usage.
Banned
Joined 2002
I'm not a mac guy, but I do like how their hardware works. I have friends with IPods, Ti-Books, IBooks, etc, and they are really clean. I would have to give them an award for clean design and perfect fits. Any accessory you buy for apple hardware will always fit like a glove, which isn't much, but it proves they put much attention to details when designing hardware. Kudos to them.
I'd like to approach this from a non-technical standpoint. I am on mac because my brother is a compositor with a newspaper and that was the first learning I did. Since then, it seems to me, there are two schools of thought.
Pay now or pay later.
I don't have the stats that others do but it does seem that once you buy a mac, you've got a lot going for you. This includes a lot of things like the surfer dude named Kelly who answers the phone when I call about a couple of keystrokes I can't get right. It includes the software that loads right each time. It includes the LCD screen that looks good from any angle, itunes, iphoto, idvd, appleworks etcetera. These are all things that make using a computer easier for guys like me who work out in the field, not at a terminal or workstation.
I know what frozen screen is but with auto-save that's only your last five minutes work, but I am not familiar with what a crash is. I was over at my girlfriends place not too long ago and her screen went blue. Then her face went blue. Then her language went blue. I asked her what happened and I guess I shouldn't have asked so soon. My gnuts are now blue.
The last thing I'm looking for is a problem with my computer. I look at it to help, not frustrate.
On the other hand, if you are capable with the computer, both in the keyboard part and the screwdriver part then you can set yourself up with a really nice system for considerably less than the cost of a comparable mac. You don't need a mac. why would you buy one? With this thread in mind, isn't that like sleeping with the enemy?
It's good that both are available. How boring this thread would be without the competition.
Happy with his mac,
Cal
Pay now or pay later.
I don't have the stats that others do but it does seem that once you buy a mac, you've got a lot going for you. This includes a lot of things like the surfer dude named Kelly who answers the phone when I call about a couple of keystrokes I can't get right. It includes the software that loads right each time. It includes the LCD screen that looks good from any angle, itunes, iphoto, idvd, appleworks etcetera. These are all things that make using a computer easier for guys like me who work out in the field, not at a terminal or workstation.
I know what frozen screen is but with auto-save that's only your last five minutes work, but I am not familiar with what a crash is. I was over at my girlfriends place not too long ago and her screen went blue. Then her face went blue. Then her language went blue. I asked her what happened and I guess I shouldn't have asked so soon. My gnuts are now blue.
The last thing I'm looking for is a problem with my computer. I look at it to help, not frustrate.
On the other hand, if you are capable with the computer, both in the keyboard part and the screwdriver part then you can set yourself up with a really nice system for considerably less than the cost of a comparable mac. You don't need a mac. why would you buy one? With this thread in mind, isn't that like sleeping with the enemy?
It's good that both are available. How boring this thread would be without the competition.
Happy with his mac,
Cal
I would still be using my 133mhz IBM with 16mb shared memory if the HD hadnt spat the dummy,used it til '03!
This pc i bought for $1g,il keep it til it dies too.
Just like when i hate it when you lose a pen before the inks ran out(ive only ever ran out of ink once in my 21years), i hate to waste.
Xp works,so i use it. Using what most people use makes things easier.
Its not a case of whats best.
There is no best at everything.
its a case of , using a device that does the job optimally.
I would like to try linux but setting things up like drivers,id have to learn.
This pc i bought for $1g,il keep it til it dies too.
Just like when i hate it when you lose a pen before the inks ran out(ive only ever ran out of ink once in my 21years), i hate to waste.
Xp works,so i use it. Using what most people use makes things easier.
Its not a case of whats best.
There is no best at everything.
its a case of , using a device that does the job optimally.
I would like to try linux but setting things up like drivers,id have to learn.
Banned
Joined 2002
mikee12345 said:
setting up the newest linux IE mandrake / suse is just as simple as installing windows. if not simpler : O ) not like long time ago..
oh but yuor using windows.. what about all that spyware or popups or viruse.. awww yuo keep them ill use my mac that just looks as them as unknows files WOOT!!
I don't see a really big reason to leave windows. It really isn't as bad as you say it is.
There was a time in the past when Macs had bad virus problems and PC's didn't. The power-pc macs were very crash prone too, running this odd mix of native Power PC and emulated motorola 68000 code, it was no wonder that it was occasionally a bit flakey.
The newer Macs are supposedly much better. But windows XP and 2000 are also much better too. I leave my computer on for days on end 24/7 without a single crash.
Microsoft is making very substantial changes in windows XP in order to reduce the virus problems. There are very few ways where the Mac is significantly superior, other than the reassuringly expensive list price.
For me, there is the fun of DIY upgrades, tweaking the computer hardware. I'm not much interested in Linux / Unix. Almost all of the distros worth trying include proprietary parts that you have to pay for, and the price is about as much as the windows that already works fine for me.
But I am warming up to trying either Lindows (now Linspire) or Corel (now Xandros). They both have advantages disadvantages, but they both hae a good rep for simple installs and configuration.
But I don't want to mess around with this on my sole PC, so it has to wait until I do an upgrade sometime. Then I will install Linux on the old PC, and see what I can learn to do with PHP and MySQL. I don't like the new dot Net tech much at all, and PHP is closer to the old ASP than the completely new and complex aspx architecture.
I am not interested in Macs at all. There is no significant way that the interface is easer than a PC, and there are many ways that they are a PITB, like the lack of a right mouse click context menu popup. You may like it better, but it doesn't make Windows wrong.
I've had my current box for almost 3 years now, and it has been utterly reliable and very fast. I can edit very large bitmaps and do complex effects on them without very long waits, what was a fairly expensive computer 3 years ago is now very affordable to anyone. There is no need to spend a bundle on a mac, a cheap PC does just fine running coreldraw where you can do 90% of te stuff you can do with Illustrator and Photoshop, and you can do another 20% of things that they don't do very well.
With a far superior interface, as well. All for $250 instead of more than grand for the adobe stuff.
There was a time in the past when Macs had bad virus problems and PC's didn't. The power-pc macs were very crash prone too, running this odd mix of native Power PC and emulated motorola 68000 code, it was no wonder that it was occasionally a bit flakey.
The newer Macs are supposedly much better. But windows XP and 2000 are also much better too. I leave my computer on for days on end 24/7 without a single crash.
Microsoft is making very substantial changes in windows XP in order to reduce the virus problems. There are very few ways where the Mac is significantly superior, other than the reassuringly expensive list price.
For me, there is the fun of DIY upgrades, tweaking the computer hardware. I'm not much interested in Linux / Unix. Almost all of the distros worth trying include proprietary parts that you have to pay for, and the price is about as much as the windows that already works fine for me.
But I am warming up to trying either Lindows (now Linspire) or Corel (now Xandros). They both have advantages disadvantages, but they both hae a good rep for simple installs and configuration.
But I don't want to mess around with this on my sole PC, so it has to wait until I do an upgrade sometime. Then I will install Linux on the old PC, and see what I can learn to do with PHP and MySQL. I don't like the new dot Net tech much at all, and PHP is closer to the old ASP than the completely new and complex aspx architecture.
I am not interested in Macs at all. There is no significant way that the interface is easer than a PC, and there are many ways that they are a PITB, like the lack of a right mouse click context menu popup. You may like it better, but it doesn't make Windows wrong.
I've had my current box for almost 3 years now, and it has been utterly reliable and very fast. I can edit very large bitmaps and do complex effects on them without very long waits, what was a fairly expensive computer 3 years ago is now very affordable to anyone. There is no need to spend a bundle on a mac, a cheap PC does just fine running coreldraw where you can do 90% of te stuff you can do with Illustrator and Photoshop, and you can do another 20% of things that they don't do very well.
With a far superior interface, as well. All for $250 instead of more than grand for the adobe stuff.
Banned
Joined 2002
geewhizbang said:
Id hate to burst your linux bubble but linux is free.
www.linuxiso.org : O ) adn pay well yo pay for there server versions not the desktop one.. and teh desktop one do the server functions just well. server means technical help via phone and some other goodies WOW book's it is all on line any way.. my fav would be mandrake and suse.. i hate redhat.. windows servers all go down when a new viruse comes out ect ect haev yuo ever seen diyaido go down from a viruse NOPE.. NOTA. what is this about a right click on a mac.. i use my 5 year old logitech mouse that i love with the 3 buttons. right left and scroll ? Me pay for software.. humm never..
and if yuo wanted unix / linux bsd is the way to go.. MAC is not LINUX it is BSD with teh pretty aqua.. i do admit a decent built pc running linux is what im looking at getting soon only to run linux not windows.. and my choice of that laptop a dell Ls400 PIII 500 no more no less pII 500 is just perfect 512mb ram and a somple 20giger.
geewhizbang said:
I don't know if it's fair to say that "there are very few ways where the Mac is significantly superior" and just leave it at that. Especially if you haven't had the chance to use a Mac for a long period of time, your argument is empty.
I don't know how far people go with DIY upgrades, but you can upgrade a Mac farther than you think. However, most people don't feel the need to update their Macs past RAM and HDD, and even still their machines are far from obsolete for years.
They're worth trying, but don't get your hopes up.
Don't bash dotNet -- especially if you don't develop Windows apps. That will be one of the technologies getting you more high-quality apps on Windows with less work. Anyone developing new applications will have an easier time, and hopefully it'll show a more consistent end-user experience than there currently is. I love Cocoa on the Mac for the simple reason that I get a lot of functionality "for free" (copy, paste, open, save, etc, etc), and my app will look like all the others on the MacOS. Consistency is key. If you know how to use any Mac app, you likely know how to use 70-80% of my app.
This totally shows that you've never used a Mac for any appreciable amount of time. I use a 3-button mouse that I had on my PC (I never did like the clear single-button mouse that came with my PowerMac), and I get context menus everywhere. If I only had a single-button mouse, the context menus are still there, except that I have to control-Click. If you've used Photoshop, or MS Office, or Windows Explorer to select more than one item, you've likely used a keyboard-mouse combo click before. This "argument" you provided bothers me the most when I hear it...
I agree. You don't have to pay big bucks to get great software. As an independent developer, I highly suggest you check out the shareware apps for your respective platforms as well. We're smarter than you probably give us credit for.
I'm not trying to change your mind about Macs, but I just had to correct those common annoying things that people say about them. I'm a software developer and I work primarily on the Windows platform during my day job. I have nothing at all against Windows, but I sure prefer a Mac when it comes to the computers that I pay for out of my own pocket.
BTW, I do write windows apps. I have been making at least 80% of my living from writing code for the last five years.
So far, the advantages to dot net are not worth practically starting over on the learning curve. None of the websites I design are for high volume clients, so that is a good part of the reason. They have a lot of well-structured data that is easy to arrange on web pages with good ol' asp.
I also have already solved some of the hassles of good ol' asp in my own way that work very well.
Dot Net is a really huge change from what they did before. I am currently writing an app in VB6 because it is good enough.
On my next break between projects, I intend to port one of my more complex websites over to dot net. That should get my feet wet. But I also want to spend some time adding PHP to my toolbox as well.
I haven't used the current crop of Unix based macs yet, so some of my irritations are probably fixed by now.
BTW, if more mac users were more open-minded like you seem to be, perhaps some of us windows users would be more interested in taking a look. I just don't care for the religious attitude about Mac's being best for graphics, or the put-downs of Corel Draw, which I use very capably and love.
So far, the advantages to dot net are not worth practically starting over on the learning curve. None of the websites I design are for high volume clients, so that is a good part of the reason. They have a lot of well-structured data that is easy to arrange on web pages with good ol' asp.
I also have already solved some of the hassles of good ol' asp in my own way that work very well.
Dot Net is a really huge change from what they did before. I am currently writing an app in VB6 because it is good enough.
On my next break between projects, I intend to port one of my more complex websites over to dot net. That should get my feet wet. But I also want to spend some time adding PHP to my toolbox as well.
I haven't used the current crop of Unix based macs yet, so some of my irritations are probably fixed by now.
BTW, if more mac users were more open-minded like you seem to be, perhaps some of us windows users would be more interested in taking a look. I just don't care for the religious attitude about Mac's being best for graphics, or the put-downs of Corel Draw, which I use very capably and love.
Banned
Joined 2002
runebivrin said:However, it would seem the Mac keyboard is a tad erratic at times. At least judging from your examples
Rune
sorry must be either the compaq * girl Friends computer* Or the fact that im up at 2am with such painfully stomach pain's one of the to.. my money is on the fact that i was up at 2ish with a really sor stomach
Banned
Joined 2002
planet10 said:
My money is on the fact that Jason's fingers can't keep up with his brain, and spelling & grammar just don't figure into his world view -- he almost talks like he writes too...
dave
yeah i definatly talk fast.. : O ) but im a smart Cookie. : O )
Ps. got a job interview tuesday Dave. WOOT!!
geewhizbang said:
Luckily I don't target the Windows platform in my code. I write embedded software mainly.
I was speaking from an end-user apps standpoint. I really don't follow server-based software very much, and could not offer any points for or against regarding dotNet on that front.
From what I hear, VB.NET is supposed to be far superior to VB6. Unfortunately, I have no personal experience to back that up. If I had power, I'd tell everyone to use Cocoa anyway.
I'd put money on it.
It helps that I've been on Windows almost as long as I've had a computer (since 3.1). My first Mac came in February 2003 -- an iBook G3 800. You want to know why I bought it? I was developing an x86 PC operating system for a course in school using a lot of UNIX development tools (gcc+make, cross-compiling to x86) and wanted something that would do that as well as handle all my other school tasks (Word, Excel, PowerPoint, etc).
If you think I could have done that work on a PC effectively, you're dead wrong. I got wireless access around campus in way more places than my PC-touting buddies, I had no problems compiling "UNIX-only" tools that my buddies on Windows PCs couldn't use, and it all functioned flawlessly the entire time I used it.
I think that if more true developers (in the hobbyist/independent sense) who are stuck to their PCs moved to the Mac, they'd get a hell of a lot more done. That's coming from experience. It's not just for graphic designers anymore.
Chris
http://www.supermegaultragroovy.com
VB.NET is almost totally object oriented, vs the rather odd mix that it is VB6. Mostly, in VB6 you can USE objects, but you have a very limited amount of ability to create them. Good ol' procedural code is pretty much the norm here.
BASIC was never intended to be an object oriented language. So on microsoft had to change a lot of the VB language to add this capability.
All of the M$ languages use a common form designer now (and actually produce the same runtime code). While there are a lot of advantages to the new form desiger, it also is much more klunky and hard to use than the one in VB6. It suffers from a lot of Version 1.0 issues, IMHO, and some of them are very irriitating.
In VB6, if your code broke while running it in the IDE, you can type in a fix, and keep running. In VB.net, as far as I can tell, you have to stop, fix the code, and restart the application. Then repeat all of the steps that got you to the place where it broke, if you can even remember them. This alone makes it much easier to debug a VB6 app.
The ADO interfaces to vb.net are supposedly superior. The old VB.6 ado interfaces are currently supported, but are deprecated. So you have to go thru the trouble of learning a completely new interface for ADO that supposedly does more if you want your app to work on the next version of dot net.
So IMHO, if vb6-style ADO isn't going to be supported anyway, you may as well stay in the familiar environment of VB6, and wait to do the porting after there is a more compelling reason to switch.
A whole slew of commonly used VB controls have been jettisoned. There are probably good reasons for this, but it is nevertheless a painful transition if you are moving old apps to vb.net. So if you have gotten used to using them, you now have to find whatever new widget has been created to replace them.
None of the new features are all that terribly compelling to the rather simple custom apps that I usually end up writing. I really don't need much object orientation. In the process of making VB.net more powerful, they have lost a lot of the simplicity of VB6.
I wonder if Microsoft is going to find developers still using it five years from now. Microsoft has found that many developers HAVE looked at dot net, and decided to wait until it is more mature.
BASIC was never intended to be an object oriented language. So on microsoft had to change a lot of the VB language to add this capability.
All of the M$ languages use a common form designer now (and actually produce the same runtime code). While there are a lot of advantages to the new form desiger, it also is much more klunky and hard to use than the one in VB6. It suffers from a lot of Version 1.0 issues, IMHO, and some of them are very irriitating.
In VB6, if your code broke while running it in the IDE, you can type in a fix, and keep running. In VB.net, as far as I can tell, you have to stop, fix the code, and restart the application. Then repeat all of the steps that got you to the place where it broke, if you can even remember them. This alone makes it much easier to debug a VB6 app.
The ADO interfaces to vb.net are supposedly superior. The old VB.6 ado interfaces are currently supported, but are deprecated. So you have to go thru the trouble of learning a completely new interface for ADO that supposedly does more if you want your app to work on the next version of dot net.
So IMHO, if vb6-style ADO isn't going to be supported anyway, you may as well stay in the familiar environment of VB6, and wait to do the porting after there is a more compelling reason to switch.
A whole slew of commonly used VB controls have been jettisoned. There are probably good reasons for this, but it is nevertheless a painful transition if you are moving old apps to vb.net. So if you have gotten used to using them, you now have to find whatever new widget has been created to replace them.
None of the new features are all that terribly compelling to the rather simple custom apps that I usually end up writing. I really don't need much object orientation. In the process of making VB.net more powerful, they have lost a lot of the simplicity of VB6.
I wonder if Microsoft is going to find developers still using it five years from now. Microsoft has found that many developers HAVE looked at dot net, and decided to wait until it is more mature.
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