Because he canI would design better (imo) within a workday - because I can
I like this post !!!
I like the beers...
Then you are slightly foolish, IMO.
I am possibly one of the few people who deeply followed Troels Gravesen's failed adventure with the Proac 2.5 clone.
I dug up the 2.5 Clone papers yesterday. I won't post such a time-consuming read about a failed adventure. The 7" Scruffy-looking Scanspeak 18W-8535-00 was a woofer that could barely get above 2kHz without severe problems. The 3/4" Scanspeak D2010 tweeter can scarcely dig below 4kHz without severe problems.
All goes wrong in the 3kHz middle. Simple as that.
You might be able to get a paper 7" working with a soft-dome 3/4", but it needs a far smoother and extended 7" driver IMO. Like the Devore Gibbon 88:
Goran at AudioExcite has spent a bit of time on this too:
www.audioexcite.com >> Classic Two – M5
Hope that clears it up. Don't waste time on it.
I am possibly one of the few people who deeply followed Troels Gravesen's failed adventure with the Proac 2.5 clone.
I dug up the 2.5 Clone papers yesterday. I won't post such a time-consuming read about a failed adventure. The 7" Scruffy-looking Scanspeak 18W-8535-00 was a woofer that could barely get above 2kHz without severe problems. The 3/4" Scanspeak D2010 tweeter can scarcely dig below 4kHz without severe problems.
All goes wrong in the 3kHz middle. Simple as that.
SP95
SP38/13
You might be able to get a paper 7" working with a soft-dome 3/4", but it needs a far smoother and extended 7" driver IMO. Like the Devore Gibbon 88:
Goran at AudioExcite has spent a bit of time on this too:
www.audioexcite.com >> Classic Two – M5
Hope that clears it up. Don't waste time on it.
i think proacs rocks and musicians like them too. I have built the clones and they work great. They are not perfect but i think mr tyler has squeezed the best out of these drivers! Gravesens xo suggestions have sounded extremely poor.
I have had a good eye on proac since the mid 90s but i am a bit worried about the future for them, i very much hope mr tyler passes his skills down to his children
I have had a good eye on proac since the mid 90s but i am a bit worried about the future for them, i very much hope mr tyler passes his skills down to his children
ProAc is Stewart Tyler without him there is no ProAc and no magic, it will be gone forever.
The job of a studio monitor is mainly to have a flat balance in a highly acoustically treated studio. Way better acoustically than your domestic room. Little consideration is given to distortion, since we are merely trying to get a reference on frequency response for mixing.
Scan probably make more promising 7" drivers than the 18W-8535-00 these days, And you might ally it with a more generally capable 1" tweeter.
The 18W-8542-10 has a dip at 2.5kHz where the 18W-8535-00 had a more audibly troublesome peak:
Studio-101-mkII
I was going add the Troels Gravesen 2.5 clone papers pdf here, but it's too big for the forum to upload. But the bottom line is better driver selection.
A modern man will use the 18W-8542-10. And relieve it of extreme bass duties, which reduces distortion.
One must move with the times.
Scan probably make more promising 7" drivers than the 18W-8535-00 these days, And you might ally it with a more generally capable 1" tweeter.
The 18W-8542-10 has a dip at 2.5kHz where the 18W-8535-00 had a more audibly troublesome peak:
Studio-101-mkII
I was going add the Troels Gravesen 2.5 clone papers pdf here, but it's too big for the forum to upload. But the bottom line is better driver selection.
A modern man will use the 18W-8542-10. And relieve it of extreme bass duties, which reduces distortion.
One must move with the times.
Last edited:
Let's be frank there is no magic but there is a formula and methodology as you rightly say. Whether that gets passed on or is even wanted or possibly even disregarded by his successors one day is something that we or even he has no control over. I think his grandson has some interest but whether that will grow into a passion that he had is another matter. He's probably more interested in video games, phones or whatever that generation are locked into.
Personally, I like the sound of their designs and his business model. Whatever applied method he uses it gives contestant results that make ProAc a familiar sound and one that gets to the heart of the music IMO.
Many on here or other sites may say they can build 'better' sounding speakers but as has been discussed better is strictly better to them. Most if not all have not been in business for the decades like ProAc and has sold 100s / 1000s of speakers that have been loved around the world used in studios and homes of all shapes and sizes, which have all started their life on Stewart's mind and bench, that is some achievement! Even the used models are still demanding ridiculous prices and their availability is still good. The LS3/5A fetch crazy prices used but if current market values are an indicator I think they will even be outdone by ProAc one day, especially for particular models.
His business model seems to have been lower production and the use of known quality parts and cabinets which in the past have been outsourced to some extent. But his work is on putting together something which is more than the sum of its parts. And the crossovers which are his secret sauce have made something special and has led to this success.
Anyway, what ProAc have done is put some amazing speakers out there which many aspire to clone/copy. I wish them every success and if you're reading Stewart I am looking for a job and love your speakers, I'd happily continue it if you were willing to show that recipe
Trouble is with lower-cost digital amplification and more and more people turning to DSP which makes tuning easier what will the future of speakers be. Which kind of makes Stewart's achievements over all the years even more special.
Last edited:
What Proac and Stewart do so well, is indulging the fascinating speaker hobby with sufficient commercial success to avoid hard-working for a living! Much to it, including room acoustics, dispersion, distortion an' all that.
TBH, I have never heard a two-way that couldn't be improved as a 3-way.
I keep saying don't waste time on the Scan 18W-8535-00. A terrible old raggedy driver. Much tidier offerings around now:
Studio-101-mkII
But, in my dreams, I'd go 3-way using much the same woofer and tweeter:
SP38/13
BTW, westsounds, you are definitely worth a job interview. Keep at it.
TBH, I have never heard a two-way that couldn't be improved as a 3-way.
I keep saying don't waste time on the Scan 18W-8535-00. A terrible old raggedy driver. Much tidier offerings around now:
Studio-101-mkII
But, in my dreams, I'd go 3-way using much the same woofer and tweeter:
SP38/13
BTW, westsounds, you are definitely worth a job interview. Keep at it.
What Proac and Stewart do so well, is indulging the fascinating speaker hobby with sufficient commercial success to avoid hard-working for a living! Much to it, including room acoustics, dispersion, distortion an' all that.
TBH, I have never heard a two-way that couldn't be improved as a 3-way.
I keep saying don't waste time on the Scan 18W-8535-00. A terrible old raggedy driver. Much tidier offerings around now:
Studio-101-mkII
But, in my dreams, I'd go 3-way using much the same woofer and tweeter:
SP38/13
Yes he has certainly achieved that, I don't doubt he puts in a lot of effort, but when something is your passion that effort doesn't necessarily mean its work. I know I talked to Stewart once about this very briefly at a show and he kind of admitted that if you can combine an interest with work than you are very fortunate. And he has had a very fortunate business but in all fairness he makes good products and they deserve it and sell themselves, plus his reputation goes before him.
I get your point on 3 ways yes I'm sure if space isn't an issue this maybe the case. I still like what can be achieved with some of the best 2 way designs though.
I like those drivers myself but cant disregard your opinion on better ones, I've have never had much experience of those. Those Scan Speak tweeters however are one of my favourites that are used in the 2.5, but the price of them seems to be going up and up, and I'm not sure they are that much better than designs that are around at a fraction of the cost if well implemented could undoubtedly sound better. It may actually be why its not used that often any more in the ProAc designs, the tweeters he generally uses now tend to be a bit cheaper.
And thanks for that commentBTW, westsounds, you are definitely worth a job interview. Keep at it.
I've spent most of my life climbing the ladder of the wrong wall I was never as fortunate to combine a passion with a workplace as Stewart has, but as many others there are bills to pay, things to buy, kids to feed. I am at the moment hoping to find some more rewarding work actually and in need of a job, and as I seem to spend a lot of my life focused on hi-fi it would be nice to work with it. Not many can say they have been apart of something big or as iconic in hi-fi though as Stewart has, that's something else.
What Proac and Stewart do so well, is indulging the fascinating speaker hobby with sufficient commercial success to avoid hard-working for a living! Much to it, including room acoustics, dispersion, distortion an' all that.
TBH, I have never heard a two-way that couldn't be improved as a 3-way.
I keep saying don't waste time on the Scan 18W-8535-00. A terrible old raggedy driver. Much tidier offerings around now:
Studio-101-mkII
But, in my dreams, I'd go 3-way using much the same woofer and tweeter:
SP38/13
BTW, westsounds, you are definitely worth a job interview. Keep at it.
i think troels gravesen quite recently used the new 8535-01 as a midrange driver with great success
"I get your point on 3 ways yes I'm sure if space isn't an issue this maybe the case. I still like what can be achieved with some of the best 2 way designs though."
Actually ProAc 2.5 is exactly the size of a typical modern 3-way floorstander! And has practically similar low end performance - actually better than typical because of low tuning and the driver having low fs, on the expence of sensitivity.
Actually ProAc 2.5 is exactly the size of a typical modern 3-way floorstander! And has practically similar low end performance - actually better than typical because of low tuning and the driver having low fs, on the expence of sensitivity.
Yes very good point, I've heard many a good 3 way that doesn't come close to the Response 2.5, in my opinion of course.
They are quite a large'ish model the 2.5. Definitely not for the smaller area. As was the case with the 1.5 as well. Another fine design that might show many a 3 way where the door is
Let's be frank there is no magic but there is a formula and methodology as you rightly say. Whether that gets passed on or is even wanted or possibly even disregarded by his successors one day is something that we or even he has no control over. I think his grandson has some interest but whether that will grow into a passion that he had is another matter. He's probably more interested in video games, phones or whatever that generation are locked into.
Personally, I like the sound of their designs and his business model. Whatever applied method he uses it gives contestant results that make ProAc a familiar sound and one that gets to the heart of the music IMO.
Many on here or other sites may say they can build 'better' sounding speakers but as has been discussed better is strictly better to them. Most if not all have not been in business for the decades like ProAc and has sold 100s / 1000s of speakers that have been loved around the world used in studios and homes of all shapes and sizes, which have all started their life on Stewart's mind and bench, that is some achievement! Even the used models are still demanding ridiculous prices and their availability is still good. The LS3/5A fetch crazy prices used but if current market values are an indicator I think they will even be outdone by ProAc one day, especially for particular models.
His business model seems to have been lower production and the use of known quality parts and cabinets which in the past have been outsourced to some extent. But his work is on putting together something which is more than the sum of its parts. And the crossovers which are his secret sauce have made something special and has led to this success.
Anyway, what ProAc have done is put some amazing speakers out there which many aspire to clone/copy. I wish them every success and if you're reading Stewart I am looking for a job and love your speakers, I'd happily continue it if you were willing to show that recipe
i think his son, daughter and son in law are now in the business.
mr tyler used to have graeme bridge (falcon acoustics r.a.m. studio 30 designer, modern audio design) as a co-worker but something must have happened and he left proac.
i like proac's old boxy apperience but i have a hard time with the k-range, just look at the k1, very strange looking creature! maybe mr tyler is no longer responsible for all designs?
I'd like to separate sound quality from sales by manufacturer which has been around for several decades. If we like to know what product is better than some other, we must compare the sound of those two. Nothing else such as reputation or manufactured quantity or number of distributors worldwide or awards won or stars in hi-fi magazine.
Not just many diyers but also many starting companies could - and probably have better sounding speakers, but breaking into market is totally different story now-a-days than in 70s' ... beginning of 80s'. Creating international hype from zero is not so easy anymore when large business with 1000s of manufacturers is fading out.
That is just plain wrong.
Studio recording monitor design takes distortion very seriously, much more so than designers of domestic speakers do.
That said only few give actual numbers like JBL, Neumann, ME Geithain and Tannoy when they were still in the business of producing main monitors.
But on the whole the least distorting monitors tend to get better reviews and a greater long-term following than models with higher distortion.
However when it comes to mixing all bets are off and it comes down to the mix engineer which model he finds translates better for him than others which part explains the popularity of the diabolical NS10: They work for some, not at all for others.
Yes, I kind of know half the story with Graeme Bridge and have spoke to him as well. I don't think things ended well there but then its probably none of our business and we may never know the full circumstances anyway, and these things happen in life.
I know about the daughter working for him, I've spoke to her as well, nice lady, and the son in law who seems to be more cabinet side of things than loudspeaker design. Didn't even know he had a son.
I knew about the grandson, who resembles Stewart a bit
He is apparently interested so the family told me but in all fairness he is still a very young man to be interested in business. Yes I'm with you a lot of the newer design are a bit meh. I think their traditional old school method was the best, but Stewart tells me people want different designs and types and its his show
I actually think their retail costs are a bit salty as well myself. I actually wouldnt buy a set anymore unless I found a bargain. I just think they are a bit overpriced and theres other stuff and DIY to be considered as well. But still love ProAc.