Christer said:
You refer to the diagram of the "ZAP filter", while I was talking about an improved version, "ZAP filter mk II". You can download a simplified schematic in the URL linked in my first post. You will find the "z" there.
Christer said:
That's what this post was all about. You cannot buy a "Z transistor". It's a term used by LC Audio in their marketing. I was interested in what is behind it.
The term Z-transistor was not invented by us, but another well known company in the audio business. (Use a search engine to find out which).
It refers to the special types of transistors with a vertical electron passage rather than the normal horizontal passage, in a silicon crystal.
The vertical topology was invented by Zetex, presumably why the term Z-transistor came up. Some of Zetex' transistors use this technology, others don't. The ones that do have extremely low Cbc and exceptional good hfe linearity. Important parameters for audio applications!
In fact i believe Zetex have some of the best audio transistors around these days, if you look for the important figures in their datasheets.
It refers to the special types of transistors with a vertical electron passage rather than the normal horizontal passage, in a silicon crystal.
The vertical topology was invented by Zetex, presumably why the term Z-transistor came up. Some of Zetex' transistors use this technology, others don't. The ones that do have extremely low Cbc and exceptional good hfe linearity. Important parameters for audio applications!
In fact i believe Zetex have some of the best audio transistors around these days, if you look for the important figures in their datasheets.
LC Audio said:
I've tried both Altavista and Google and the only relevant
docs I find are about your End Millenium amp. I have also
checked Zetex and they seem not to use the term themselves.
I don't understand exactly what you mean, but I suppose you
mean that the planar process is not used for these BJTs. I didn't
know there were any other types of BJTs.
I didn't find anything at Zetex's site on Z transistors and found
no other term that seemed to refer to it, so I could only randomly
check a handful of devices, none of which turned out to fit
the description. Could you, or someone else, please give the
part number for a Z transistor, so I could check its datasheet?
Thanks in advance.
"LC Audio", thanks for your comments.
Christer, FCX491A datasheet is here: http://www.zetex.com/3.0/pdf/FCX491A.pdf
It's planar, though.
Christer, FCX491A datasheet is here: http://www.zetex.com/3.0/pdf/FCX491A.pdf
It's planar, though.
AMTfreak, thanks, but the problem is not to find datasheets,
but to find a Zetex device which is a Z-transistor. All the ones
I found when sampling their catalogue turned out to be planar.
Or, to be more precise, a few were not advertised as planar
and were claimed to use a "matrix structure". However, these
latter ones did not show any better specs either, so I don't
think those are Z-transistors either.
but to find a Zetex device which is a Z-transistor. All the ones
I found when sampling their catalogue turned out to be planar.
Or, to be more precise, a few were not advertised as planar
and were claimed to use a "matrix structure". However, these
latter ones did not show any better specs either, so I don't
think those are Z-transistors either.
Free advertising for comercial websites AGAIN?
http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/download/lc_audio_end_millennium_cookbook.pdf
Zetex transistors marked SD1 and SD2
http://www.zetex.com/3.0/pdf/SXTA42.pdf
http://www.zetex.com/3.0/pdf/sxta92.pdf
............. Thats for using the forum for commercial purposes. Please stop it!
http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/download/lc_audio_end_millennium_cookbook.pdf
Zetex transistors marked SD1 and SD2
http://www.zetex.com/3.0/pdf/SXTA42.pdf
http://www.zetex.com/3.0/pdf/sxta92.pdf
............. Thats for using the forum for commercial purposes. Please stop it!
Attachments
Re: Free advertising for comercial websites AGAIN?
Hm, those are also described as planar in the datasheets. Did
I perhaps misunderstand lcaudios explanation. There are no
markings in the datasheets or device listings at Zetex,
unfortunately.
These datasheets were also very brief, and the FMMT42A
datasheet referred to for more details were just as brief, so
except for the Cob figure, there seems not much info to figure
out if they are special in the way described by lcaudio.
Fred Dieckmann said:
Hm, those are also described as planar in the datasheets. Did
I perhaps misunderstand lcaudios explanation. There are no
markings in the datasheets or device listings at Zetex,
unfortunately.
These datasheets were also very brief, and the FMMT42A
datasheet referred to for more details were just as brief, so
except for the Cob figure, there seems not much info to figure
out if they are special in the way described by lcaudio.
Fred Dieckmann, we never use discussion groups for commercial purposes, we simply replied to some discussions about our products or marketing, where it was obvious that the train was about to run off tracks. Like this one ....
(i.e. You will not find any threads about any of our newly released products on diyaudio.com, which kind of proves my point).
We never claimed that the vertical crystal structure was opposing the planar layout. If you look through the replies above you will see the typical pattern:
1..Someone assumes that the Z transistor is not a planar design.
2..He looks in the datasheets and finds that it is a planar design.
3..A third user assumes that WE claimed it to be a non planar design, and blames US for false marketing.
4..Other users fall over us for using discussion groups as commercial sites, using false marketing tricks, and all sorts of other things, none of which we did.....
It's a feast of conspiracy and mistrust. All unfounded!
I have clearly stated (as you can see above) that the term Z-transistor was NOT invented by Zetex, so you can NOT find informations about the term Z-transistors on Zetex.com.
I have learned about the special Zetex DIE construction on a technical design seminar, but also i have been able to find several references in Zetex databooks, i.e. 'High Performance Surface Mount Devices Book 2' 1996 page 1-7 to 2-5. This material describes the properties of the Zetex devices and compare performance with more conventional types. But sorry... not for audio related performances. This is something you would have to find out the experimental way.
So for now i will not give you any further informations on this issue, if you are a diy'er i think you will have something to work with here, if you are an audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork .. well sorry, not gonna help you....
Let's talk about Audio Technology instead...... It's more fun.....
Lars Clausen
(i.e. You will not find any threads about any of our newly released products on diyaudio.com, which kind of proves my point).
We never claimed that the vertical crystal structure was opposing the planar layout. If you look through the replies above you will see the typical pattern:
1..Someone assumes that the Z transistor is not a planar design.
2..He looks in the datasheets and finds that it is a planar design.
3..A third user assumes that WE claimed it to be a non planar design, and blames US for false marketing.
4..Other users fall over us for using discussion groups as commercial sites, using false marketing tricks, and all sorts of other things, none of which we did.....
It's a feast of conspiracy and mistrust. All unfounded!
I have clearly stated (as you can see above) that the term Z-transistor was NOT invented by Zetex, so you can NOT find informations about the term Z-transistors on Zetex.com.
I have learned about the special Zetex DIE construction on a technical design seminar, but also i have been able to find several references in Zetex databooks, i.e. 'High Performance Surface Mount Devices Book 2' 1996 page 1-7 to 2-5. This material describes the properties of the Zetex devices and compare performance with more conventional types. But sorry... not for audio related performances. This is something you would have to find out the experimental way.
So for now i will not give you any further informations on this issue, if you are a diy'er i think you will have something to work with here, if you are an audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork .. well sorry, not gonna help you....
Let's talk about Audio Technology instead...... It's more fun.....
Lars Clausen
Please, Lars, you are overreacting. There is no conspiracy and
nobody has accused you of any false marketing in this case.
I obviously jumped to the wrong conclusions from what you
wrote earlier, getting the impression that the Z-transistor
was something fundamentally different from an ordinary
planar BJT. It now seems obvious there are only minor differences
since Zetex seem not think it worth commenting on even in the
datasheets.
nobody has accused you of any false marketing in this case.
I obviously jumped to the wrong conclusions from what you
wrote earlier, getting the impression that the Z-transistor
was something fundamentally different from an ordinary
planar BJT. It now seems obvious there are only minor differences
since Zetex seem not think it worth commenting on even in the
datasheets.
Maybe you don't realize it......
"Fred Dieckmann, we never use discussion groups for commercial purposes."
I'm sorry, I was not implying any subterfuge or deceit in your description of Zetex transistors. I only wanted to make the point that description of the transistors as Zetex, and showing the marking of the SMT parts will take about 10 minutes to identify them and nullify any attempts to make the use of a "Z" transistor a design secret. I have respect for proprietary designs and don't reverse engineer products and post them on the web. I was interested in what transistor was used after reading your online literature were it was clearly marked so as to make it's identification a simple matter.
I believe that manufactures need to be very careful about even the smallest impression of bending the rules about commercial use of our forum. There are any number of members of audio companies that don't flog us with their commercial products and still participate in sharing ideas and even learning things here without the appearance of trying to sell products to us. Your user name is that of the company and all your post have a link button directly to your commercial website. Do you see the impression that even that alone makes?
A thread like the "Zapfilter DC offset trouble, help needed" is absolutely the type of thing the belongs in a manufacturers forum and is why other audio forums have these. This thread deal with customer issues and presented your company in a bad light over issues that would best be solved by private Email. Several people have expressed problems with commercial issue creeping into the forum and I am not the only one by any means. I think further considerations on your part about the clear separation of business from friendly participation in the forum would be good for not only the forum but for your company as well. Plenty of others do this and the very few that don't stand out like a sore thumb and the members know who they are.
"Fred Dieckmann, we never use discussion groups for commercial purposes."
I'm sorry, I was not implying any subterfuge or deceit in your description of Zetex transistors. I only wanted to make the point that description of the transistors as Zetex, and showing the marking of the SMT parts will take about 10 minutes to identify them and nullify any attempts to make the use of a "Z" transistor a design secret. I have respect for proprietary designs and don't reverse engineer products and post them on the web. I was interested in what transistor was used after reading your online literature were it was clearly marked so as to make it's identification a simple matter.
I believe that manufactures need to be very careful about even the smallest impression of bending the rules about commercial use of our forum. There are any number of members of audio companies that don't flog us with their commercial products and still participate in sharing ideas and even learning things here without the appearance of trying to sell products to us. Your user name is that of the company and all your post have a link button directly to your commercial website. Do you see the impression that even that alone makes?
A thread like the "Zapfilter DC offset trouble, help needed" is absolutely the type of thing the belongs in a manufacturers forum and is why other audio forums have these. This thread deal with customer issues and presented your company in a bad light over issues that would best be solved by private Email. Several people have expressed problems with commercial issue creeping into the forum and I am not the only one by any means. I think further considerations on your part about the clear separation of business from friendly participation in the forum would be good for not only the forum but for your company as well. Plenty of others do this and the very few that don't stand out like a sore thumb and the members know who they are.
Fred,
This was the first post by Lars:
I have to disagree with your attack. I feel Lar's reply was on topic and he was not "selling" his product. He was simply answering questions brought up on forum and I feel it was you who was once again attempting to steer the thread off course with your title and post:
Free advertising for comercial websites AGAIN? Post #27
http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/do...um_cookbook.pdf
I find it fortunate that varous experts are willing to share information about their products and admire the fact that they even take the time to monitor and answer this forum.
I have no problem with Lar's using his business name as his handle. He should be very proud of what he/his company produces and should be able to choose whichever moniker he feels like just as you have.
I don't view the link to his website any differently than a link to a personal website from anyone else whether done for hobby's sake or commercial purposes... You have the option of deciding whether to explore it or not; nobody is forcing it down your throat... Now if he were posting advertisements regarding his products (like you did) that would be another story...
I think it's great that he's willing to participate and share information! Thanks Lars!
Lastly, let's not handle foreign policy in a manner similar to the boneheads in Washington DC ok? My other half is native German and has only been here 3 years. She translates every word into English one at a time and I've found the literal translation often offends even though it was never intended to... Please keep in mind that you are expressing your opinion and only your opinion and the tone/meaning may be offensive when translated.
Just food for thought...
This was the first post by Lars:
LC Audio said:The N2 transistors are FCX491A, chosen for their high linearity, and hfe. The 5 GHz bandwidth, that some users in this discussion room claim we use in our marketing material is NOT for this part, but for the BFR92A used in LClock.
The term Z-Transistor is not even found in connection with any of the products discussed here, we use Z transistors in our The End Millennium Power Amplifier kit.... hmm
How did you mix that one up so much AMT-FREAK
I have to disagree with your attack. I feel Lar's reply was on topic and he was not "selling" his product. He was simply answering questions brought up on forum and I feel it was you who was once again attempting to steer the thread off course with your title and post:
Free advertising for comercial websites AGAIN? Post #27
http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/do...um_cookbook.pdf
I find it fortunate that varous experts are willing to share information about their products and admire the fact that they even take the time to monitor and answer this forum.
I have no problem with Lar's using his business name as his handle. He should be very proud of what he/his company produces and should be able to choose whichever moniker he feels like just as you have.
I don't view the link to his website any differently than a link to a personal website from anyone else whether done for hobby's sake or commercial purposes... You have the option of deciding whether to explore it or not; nobody is forcing it down your throat... Now if he were posting advertisements regarding his products (like you did) that would be another story...
I think it's great that he's willing to participate and share information! Thanks Lars!
Lastly, let's not handle foreign policy in a manner similar to the boneheads in Washington DC ok? My other half is native German and has only been here 3 years. She translates every word into English one at a time and I've found the literal translation often offends even though it was never intended to... Please keep in mind that you are expressing your opinion and only your opinion and the tone/meaning may be offensive when translated.
Just food for thought...
Another unbiased post from the vice president of my fan club....
Am I the only one who actually reads post closely?
Lets see......... in his first post he manages to mention two other products from his company
Let's see... I start off an attack with an apology? I don't think so. what I actually said was "I'm sorry, I was not implying any subterfuge or deceit in your description of Zetex transistors."
"Now if he were posting advertisements regarding his products (like you did) that would be another story..."
I posted brochures from a previous company about products no longer available in answer to questions about what high end design I did. I have never sold anything on this forum and take issue with your deliberate distortion of the facts. I have given enough free design advice on the forum and behind the scenes to be several thousand bucks worth of consulting if I were charging for it. Figure fifty dollars an hour and go do the math........
I found Lars quote:
" So for now i will not give you any further informations on this issue, if you are a diy'er i think you will have something to work with here, if you are an audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork .. well sorry, not gonna help you.... "
This is a very interesting quote from a known audio manufacture reading the forum and yet another reason for him to keep detailed discussions about things related to his products out of the discussions on the forum. If there is a question or false claim about an issue concerning his product or parts used, answer the question briefly with, its proprietary; no we don't use it; or we use this part, and move on.
This cuts both ways and many might view him as the "audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork," This seems a real possibility considering the amount of pretty detailed advice on the forum. Ideas are the commerce here. If you have no input to give that is not related ultimately to selling your product, expect little or no response to questions from which answers might be useful to you in designing a commercial product.
Am I the only one who actually reads post closely?
Lets see......... in his first post he manages to mention two other products from his company
Let's see... I start off an attack with an apology? I don't think so. what I actually said was "I'm sorry, I was not implying any subterfuge or deceit in your description of Zetex transistors."
"Now if he were posting advertisements regarding his products (like you did) that would be another story..."
I posted brochures from a previous company about products no longer available in answer to questions about what high end design I did. I have never sold anything on this forum and take issue with your deliberate distortion of the facts. I have given enough free design advice on the forum and behind the scenes to be several thousand bucks worth of consulting if I were charging for it. Figure fifty dollars an hour and go do the math........
I found Lars quote:
" So for now i will not give you any further informations on this issue, if you are a diy'er i think you will have something to work with here, if you are an audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork .. well sorry, not gonna help you.... "
This is a very interesting quote from a known audio manufacture reading the forum and yet another reason for him to keep detailed discussions about things related to his products out of the discussions on the forum. If there is a question or false claim about an issue concerning his product or parts used, answer the question briefly with, its proprietary; no we don't use it; or we use this part, and move on.
This cuts both ways and many might view him as the "audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork," This seems a real possibility considering the amount of pretty detailed advice on the forum. Ideas are the commerce here. If you have no input to give that is not related ultimately to selling your product, expect little or no response to questions from which answers might be useful to you in designing a commercial product.
Only $50/hr?
I charge $70/hr. I see no reason why I should get a lesser rate than I get digging up broken lawn sprinklers.
Of course, for the true DIYer, I do it pro bono. And I would be able to make my house payment every month for all the free advice I give via private e-mail. Which is where a lot of us feel Signore El-See should take his affairs.
Unless we start a manufacturers forum here. In which case, I might start charging. I'll send Apogee my first bill, just for the heck of it. [joke]
Jocko
I charge $70/hr. I see no reason why I should get a lesser rate than I get digging up broken lawn sprinklers.
Of course, for the true DIYer, I do it pro bono. And I would be able to make my house payment every month for all the free advice I give via private e-mail. Which is where a lot of us feel Signore El-See should take his affairs.
Unless we start a manufacturers forum here. In which case, I might start charging. I'll send Apogee my first bill, just for the heck of it. [joke]
Jocko
As a newbie to discussion forums i thought it was about discussing audio technique, ideas, components etc. It turns out to be a whole other ballgame.
It seems some people use diyaudio.com as some kind of anger outlet. And Jocko also impossible to have a normal conversation with.
Is it really worth spending time here, if you have no need for anger management? Does it bring anything positive to my audio hobby? I think not...
So this is my epilog for diyaudio.com.
To all you real audio dyi'ers out there: good luck and have fun with your hobby!
Lars Clausen
It seems some people use diyaudio.com as some kind of anger outlet. And Jocko also impossible to have a normal conversation with.
Is it really worth spending time here, if you have no need for anger management? Does it bring anything positive to my audio hobby? I think not...
So this is my epilog for diyaudio.com.
To all you real audio dyi'ers out there: good luck and have fun with your hobby!
Lars Clausen
Impossible????
I dare anyone, especially people who disagree with me to say that I have never been able to have a decent conversation with. People who say that they hate me, write to me, asking for advice, which I freely give. They then thank me for my time, and express being surprised that I am so accommodating.
Funny, a guy who hasn't addressed me dircetly would make that claim. He could have tried to find out otherwise, but he seems to chose not to.
His loss, not mine.
Jocko, prototype angry white male from the South.
I dare anyone, especially people who disagree with me to say that I have never been able to have a decent conversation with. People who say that they hate me, write to me, asking for advice, which I freely give. They then thank me for my time, and express being surprised that I am so accommodating.
Funny, a guy who hasn't addressed me dircetly would make that claim. He could have tried to find out otherwise, but he seems to chose not to.
His loss, not mine.
Jocko, prototype angry white male from the South.
So this is my epilog for diyaudio
" So for now i will not give you any further informations on this issue, if you are a diy'er i think you will have something to work with here, if you are an audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork .. well sorry, not gonna help you.... "
Makes a much better epipilog. Peranders will still be glad to help via Email I'm sure.
We L miss you. C you around.
" So for now i will not give you any further informations on this issue, if you are a diy'er i think you will have something to work with here, if you are an audio manufacturer just looking for someone else to do your footwork .. well sorry, not gonna help you.... "
Makes a much better epipilog. Peranders will still be glad to help via Email I'm sure.
We L miss you. C you around.
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