Hi Folks,
I'm trying my hands at my first speaker build and I'd like recommendations on a kit please!
About Me
What draws me to DIY audio is the ability to have a great sounding pair of speakers at a great price as long as I'm willing to do some work. If I have to buy lots of new tools to get my speakers built, it won't be worth the cost. I have minimal wood working experience and no soldering / electrical experience. I've got bar clamps, hand drills, soldering iron and other basic hand tools. I don't have access to fancy tools like drill presses. I'm also dirt poor!
Design Goals
I live in a small condo where the room size is approx 15x15 feet. So I don't need something with high power handling. I'll be sitting about 9 feet from the speakers - just a stereo configuration. I'd like decent bass extension as I don't really have much room for a subwoofer. A tower design is preferred. Unfinished cabinets are also preferred as I'd like to finish them in red myself. Also, a simple design would be fantastic as I'm a complete noob.
So far, I've considered the TriTrix MTM TL kit on Parts Express. Looks like it's pretty straight forward and doesn't require me to have any special tools. The soldering looks simple enough. Will this speaker kit give me the bang for the buck I'm looking for?
Thanks in advance!
spin
I'm trying my hands at my first speaker build and I'd like recommendations on a kit please!
About Me
What draws me to DIY audio is the ability to have a great sounding pair of speakers at a great price as long as I'm willing to do some work. If I have to buy lots of new tools to get my speakers built, it won't be worth the cost. I have minimal wood working experience and no soldering / electrical experience. I've got bar clamps, hand drills, soldering iron and other basic hand tools. I don't have access to fancy tools like drill presses. I'm also dirt poor!
Design Goals
I live in a small condo where the room size is approx 15x15 feet. So I don't need something with high power handling. I'll be sitting about 9 feet from the speakers - just a stereo configuration. I'd like decent bass extension as I don't really have much room for a subwoofer. A tower design is preferred. Unfinished cabinets are also preferred as I'd like to finish them in red myself. Also, a simple design would be fantastic as I'm a complete noob.
So far, I've considered the TriTrix MTM TL kit on Parts Express. Looks like it's pretty straight forward and doesn't require me to have any special tools. The soldering looks simple enough. Will this speaker kit give me the bang for the buck I'm looking for?
Thanks in advance!
spin
Forget it !!
What you need is a cabinet holding the woofer , the rest you can manage to accommodate in some way .
If you find a vintage speaker , it's done ! For cheap you can have : the cabinet ,
the woofer , a tweeter and a crossover . If it's 2 way you may like to turn it in a 3 way, or if it's one of the multi-multi-speakers series , you can lower the
number of ways .
Or just a new dome tweeter in place of a cone one , or swapping components in the crossover to better ones , or a whole new crossover ....
What you need is a cabinet holding the woofer , the rest you can manage to accommodate in some way .
If you find a vintage speaker , it's done ! For cheap you can have : the cabinet ,
the woofer , a tweeter and a crossover . If it's 2 way you may like to turn it in a 3 way, or if it's one of the multi-multi-speakers series , you can lower the
number of ways .
Or just a new dome tweeter in place of a cone one , or swapping components in the crossover to better ones , or a whole new crossover ....
You mentioned "great", not "good". I'm going to hold you to that!
If I have to buy lots of new tools to get my speakers built, it won't be worth the cost. I have minimal wood working experience and no soldering / electrical experience. I've got bar clamps, hand drills, soldering iron and other basic hand tools. I don't have access to fancy tools like drill presses. I'm also dirt poor!
The crossover isn't a problem. Soldering isn't even vital - you can actually use alligator clips if you like.
As for the woodworking... try to find people here at DIYA (or other DIY forums) locally (or family/friends) that can help you out in whatever way - lending tools, doing cuts for you etc. -Anyone with whatever tools. I find MDF to be a bit more forgiving of tools, compared to something like birch ply, so consider it. I know if you were local to me, and I could help you out, I wouldn't mind.
Some Hardware stores will also lend tools.
It should be okay, but I'd recommend you raise the budget a bit and build one of these:
ER18MTM Ribbon
There is also a slightly less expensive dome version - ER18MTM Dome
Construction should not be difficult, as long as you follow the plans laid out in the PDF file. You might need a few more clamps though
The only "hard part" I can imagine might be getting some decent 3/4" edge roundovers in there, which good speakers will normally have (it has acoustic benefits). I'm sure that while it won't be perfect, Home Depot cut outs should suffice for the most part.Here is a comparision between the ER18 MTM Ribbon and the Tritrix:
Another comparable, probably less expensive design to consider: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=223870 - if you want to consider a tower version of that, drop me a PM.
...why MTMs? I think they have some issues certainly. But there's a few reasons that they're a good build.
1) They will handle more power and produce more output than a TM
2) You save serious money on crossover parts. 3-ways will be much more expensive.
3) These particular MTMs are just nice designs, plain and simple.
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Well, I'm all about diminishing returns. If I pony up to spend $500, I'm expecting double the performance. I know it's really difficult to quantify "performance", but I hope you get what I mean.
I found a local to Toronto CNC mill that does cabinet work. Also, my girlfriend is rather hand with autocad. I could go down that route, but did I mention I'm dirt poor??
I'm not in love with the MTM design, the TriTrix just seemed like an easy way to get my hands into DIY Audio, I was all set until I read mixed reviews and well, stumbled upon this site! I'm okay with a TM design as well. Simplicity and cost are my driving factors which is what lead me to the TriTrix.
edit: Oh, forgot to mention that I've beg/borrowed/stolen about 8 bar clamps so far!
I found a local to Toronto CNC mill that does cabinet work. Also, my girlfriend is rather hand with autocad. I could go down that route, but did I mention I'm dirt poor??
I'm not in love with the MTM design, the TriTrix just seemed like an easy way to get my hands into DIY Audio, I was all set until I read mixed reviews and well, stumbled upon this site! I'm okay with a TM design as well. Simplicity and cost are my driving factors which is what lead me to the TriTrix.
edit: Oh, forgot to mention that I've beg/borrowed/stolen about 8 bar clamps so far!
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How about the Econowave projects? Have you looked at those? Better sound at smaller price. They will kill the ER18MTM. In fact, that kit is kind of in the middle of bracket, no man's land sort of area. Spend less and you can get about the same performance, spend more and you can get significantly better performance.
Well, I think a speaker of the Tritrix' caliber would retail for around what you'd pay DIY ($3 to 500 although a good deal unlike a lot of what's available), However I'm not sure i'd rather have a Tritrix than a Pioneer FS51 or Infinity P363... in fact the Infinity, plus some DIY cabinet/insulation mods, can have some seriously good performance on par with $1000 speakers.
I think a speaker of the ER18's caliber would retail in the ~$8000 range in a retail store, which is a street price around $6000 most likely. Internet direct it would be less expensive as you do cut out the middle man (although you still pay shipping.).
The closest speaker to the ER18, albeit slightly better/pricier drivers, is the Salk HT2-TL. It sells for about $4500 + shipping. Given that they use essentially the exact same box, you could use the difference in driver cost to estimate the ER18's "online" value at around $3400 + shipping (+ import duties for Canadians). Do I think it's worth the price of admission? Yes, I do.
CNCs are pricey and honestly for basic speaker cabinets.. unecessary. For a waveguide, sure. If you're in a big hub like Greater Toronto, then finding a local DIYer who can help you out shouldn't be hard at all.
As for autocad, it can help you visualize the speaker, but you will need box modelling software if you want to make a tower out of a monitor.
Sorry, that was a question that I meant sort of as "Am I recommending MTMs despite some issues I have with them: Here's why:"
For PA, yeah. Not so much in a 15 x 15 room.
I'd have to disagree.
In the OP's small room? Not very likely. Yes you can get the improvements going to a Seas W18 or a Gedlee Abbey, but "significantly" is an overstatement.
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I've been reading more into the ER18 kit, and what worries me in the complexity of the front baffle routing. If it was simple circles, I think I'd be okay, but this.. this looks difficult!
This is the thread I've been reading:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forum...rs-designed-dennis-murphy-paul-kittinger.html
This is the thread I've been reading:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forum...rs-designed-dennis-murphy-paul-kittinger.html
The ER18s may have a value of $3400, but will I (or you) buy it at that price assuming you had the funds and inclination to do so? Probably not. You would either look at one of the Dynaudios or something like the JBL project array. At least I would. It's a lot of money for a mid-performance speaker. Anyway, this is a lot of hypothesizing and beside the point.
The econowaves were meant for home use, not for PA. Their measured performance is as good as it gets. The distortion will be much lower than the ER18. And the price will be much lower also. It's really a no-brainer to me.
The econowaves were meant for home use, not for PA. Their measured performance is as good as it gets. The distortion will be much lower than the ER18. And the price will be much lower also. It's really a no-brainer to me.
That routing isn't as bad as it looks. I did this on a sub project. Assuming you have a circle cutting jig.
1st pass, rout the largest circle first (top pic) with the router bit set to the depth of the inset. Mark where the inset needs to stop (inside diameter) and remove that wood.
2nd pass, cut the hole for the speaker all the way through.
Put the driver in and mark where the bolts will go.
3rd pass, use a 45 degree chamfer bit on the inside, but don't rout over the bolt holes (otherwise you won't have a flat surface on the inside for the washer and nut to attach to.)
Wow, that's hard to explain... hope this helps!
1st pass, rout the largest circle first (top pic) with the router bit set to the depth of the inset. Mark where the inset needs to stop (inside diameter) and remove that wood.
2nd pass, cut the hole for the speaker all the way through.
Put the driver in and mark where the bolts will go.
3rd pass, use a 45 degree chamfer bit on the inside, but don't rout over the bolt holes (otherwise you won't have a flat surface on the inside for the washer and nut to attach to.)
Wow, that's hard to explain... hope this helps!
Hey ra7, I did a search for Econowave.. Is this what you're referencing?
Econowave Speakers ? DIY How-to from Make: Projects
fastbike1, I'm hoping for a tower as I mentioned. They'll be acting as the mains for my stereo system and I don't have decent speaker stands. Also, speakers on speaker stands are more likely to tumble when my dog runs into them vs. towers.
Econowave Speakers ? DIY How-to from Make: Projects
fastbike1, I'm hoping for a tower as I mentioned. They'll be acting as the mains for my stereo system and I don't have decent speaker stands. Also, speakers on speaker stands are more likely to tumble when my dog runs into them vs. towers.
Hi,
The Tritrix is a good introduction to speaker building at a very low price per pair.
I can't say much more than that, they are worth building, even if you move on.
Zaph|Audio - Bargain Aluminum MTM floorstanding version would be good.
rgds, sreten.
The Tritrix is a good introduction to speaker building at a very low price per pair.
I can't say much more than that, they are worth building, even if you move on.
Zaph|Audio - Bargain Aluminum MTM floorstanding version would be good.
rgds, sreten.
Red Spade Audio: Introducing the Econowave speaker
That blog has all the info, plus links to threads which have tons of more info.
It is Zilch's design and it has evolved into a number of other projects, big, small, more expensive, less expensive. In one of the links, all the different builds are summarized in one post. Lotsa reading, but worth it, and fun.
That blog has all the info, plus links to threads which have tons of more info.
It is Zilch's design and it has evolved into a number of other projects, big, small, more expensive, less expensive. In one of the links, all the different builds are summarized in one post. Lotsa reading, but worth it, and fun.
At least some people would.... All the people on the whole internet buying Salk Songtowers and Salk HT2-TLs....
Would I? Of course not - I like DIY for the sake of DIY.
.
Um...have you ever... actually heard those JBL Pro arrays? They sound colored in the upper mids and tubby in the lower mids.
JBL Pro only has one speaker I'd love to own - the LSR 6332. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on the Be compression driver they use in their Everest, though. Give it to someone who can make a horn that doesn't sound colored, like Tom Danley, JMMLC or Earl Geddes. 'cuz those bi radial horns don't cut it.
And Dynaudios... let's just say they don't even have decent on-axis response, never mind the polars. Some might prefer those kind of "voiced sounding speakers" but i'd be willing to bet money the ER18s would outperform them in a listening comparision; since they measure better. I'm sure anyone who owns a Salk Songtower (ER18's little sibling) or Salk HT2-TL (ER18's high end sibling) would certainly disagree with you. Some have sold their Dynaudios for Salks.
Funny, because you're the one doing all of it and attacking other people's recommendations. $600 is not a lot of money for the level of performance attained. If you don't know where the money is being invested, it'd be appreciated if you don't.. ya know.. comment.
In which case they won't "Kill the ER18MTM, as I said earlier"
"As Good as it gets"? Is that so? Gotcha. So that is the pinnacle of sound reproduction!
What kind of distortion are we talking about? Are we talking about perceptually irrelevant harmonic distortion? Are we talking about power compression in a 15 x 15 room? Which woofers are the ones with shorting rings?
Most of "the price" of ER18MTMs goes to drivers. A good compression driver (not a crappy Sellenium) would run you over $120, and a good 12" woofer with good flux demodulation would still be over $150 each (the better ones closer to $230-250 each and the best even more, notwithstanding AE and the requisite wait times). Horns aren't free either, nor are crossovers. So "much lower"? Not if you want similar sound quality.
Well if it's a no-brainer, show me a controlled blind listening test where the majority of listeners prefer an econowave over another good speaker. What you're doing, and I get that we're all guilty of this - is making assumptions based on a few facts.
Trust me...I completely get the advantages of constant directivity speakers; and that E-waves have rather nice horizontal polars. But I also recognize their disadvantages. If I were suggesting an econowave type speaker, I would recommend this one:
SEOS12 with Eminence 12 Pro Woofers
Which I actually do think would be comparable to the ER18MTM, possibly better in some rooms with some source material, although it would be rather close and individual. I know which one would win from an aesthetics standpoint, though.
Just any E-wave however won't, and I quote
yourself said:
In anything but PA application. That is certain. E-waves also won't dig as deep, which the OP wanted pretty specifically for a no-sub build. I'd appreciate it if you'd drop the hyperbole; no need to "advertise" econowaves. All speakers have pros and cons.
No more difficult than any other decent speaker would be. Of course at times some people do take liberties, but don't let yourself be intimidated by flush mounting / routing. At worst, you can practice on some scrap plywood.
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Madisound Speaker Store -cool full range kit, just glue them together.
Speaker Kits DIY Sound Group
any of these three are really cool
i have built all of these except the nano's they all sound great. and have sucked me in.
here are some cool DIY websites
Click below to go to -advanced high end (expensive) designs
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy - cool designs that sound great and this company makes kits for a lot of them. DIY Speaker Components | Replacement Speakers | and Speaker kits from Meniscus Audio Group
Zaph|Audio - cool mid priced designs and good info.
try to find a kit with a pre cut cabinet, so you just have to glue things together, they are a great place to start and sound good.
Speaker Kits DIY Sound Group
any of these three are really cool
i have built all of these except the nano's they all sound great. and have sucked me in.
here are some cool DIY websites
Click below to go to -advanced high end (expensive) designs
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy - cool designs that sound great and this company makes kits for a lot of them. DIY Speaker Components | Replacement Speakers | and Speaker kits from Meniscus Audio Group
Zaph|Audio - cool mid priced designs and good info.
try to find a kit with a pre cut cabinet, so you just have to glue things together, they are a great place to start and sound good.
Very good. I think the Econowave style is suited to a serious DIYer. There will be hands on work, often at little or no expense.
It wants a good but simple cabinet, sensible choice of moderately priced drivers, as good a waveguide as you can afford, and the right crossover (like any speaker). It will also respond well to careful room placement and room treatment (like any speaker).
But this one is a little less room dependent than some and will be well suited to a smaller room in spite of its size, or indeed because of it. I'm a little perplexed by the references to PA systems in this thread. In the hands of a competent designer, this format of speaker will sound exceptional.
I said the only scenario where it would ""kill the ER18s"" was in PA application. And I stand by that assessment. Your negative connotation towards the term PA led you to take that out of context. No need to get defensive.
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