Right, living in China these days, I'm focussing myself on the Chinese audio market. I bet they are an undiscovered gem. There are a couple of brands I am interested in:
1) HiVi Swan F2.2F
2) ShengYa LS-310
3) CAV MD-EX3G
Price ranges from about 13000RMB rrp for the LS-310, to about 16-18.000RMB for the F2.2F's, to around 30.000RMB for the CAV's.
So far my interest goes to the CAV's. I can listen to all of them, but ofcourse using different setups.
They will be used on a Consonance Opera Reference 5.5 mk2 tube amp.
Knowing this, which one would be more suitable? Has anyone got any experience either with these models (preferably), or these brands?
If people want links to manufacturer websites, let me know (though I think google is an easy friend
)
Thanks for any advice you can give me!
1) HiVi Swan F2.2F
2) ShengYa LS-310
3) CAV MD-EX3G
Price ranges from about 13000RMB rrp for the LS-310, to about 16-18.000RMB for the F2.2F's, to around 30.000RMB for the CAV's.
So far my interest goes to the CAV's. I can listen to all of them, but ofcourse using different setups.
They will be used on a Consonance Opera Reference 5.5 mk2 tube amp.
Knowing this, which one would be more suitable? Has anyone got any experience either with these models (preferably), or these brands?
If people want links to manufacturer websites, let me know (though I think google is an easy friend
)Thanks for any advice you can give me!
Hi,
This is a 300B Parallel Single Ended Amplifier with a claimed output power of 18 Watt.
This means you need a speaker which is not too disturbed by a fairly high source impedance. Also, given the very limited power available the speaker should have 94dB/2.83V/1m sensitivity (real, not made up) if it offers a genuine 8 ohm impedance. If it is (like it is very common) essentially a 4 Ohm speaker you need to add 3dB more, so it would have to offer 97dB/2.83V/1m.
A cursory look via the net does not seem to suggest any of the models you list as suitable, in fact they all seem depressingly unsuited.
I heard HiVi at shows and their stuff seemed okay, nothing earth shattering, but seemed well designed and made. Nothing in their lineup I'd care to pair with an SE Amp though.
I came across a shop selling CAV in Athens when I was there on business and had a listen, to that exact ostentatious nouveau riche (or pretend nouveau riche - read chav) speaker you seem to have an eye on. To say I was underwhelmed by the audition would be a compliment.
The whole system was rather bad, maybe the CAV electronics where the cause, not the speakers, but I did not bother to find out. It seemed very much targeted at AV and was just awful with music.
No Idea on Sheng Yang. Is that not where they make the chinese Mig's based on 1960's soviet designs?
As I am not an expert (or even knowledgeable) on chinese speakers I cannot make positive recommendations from that market. At some time Opera made their own horn speaker which would possibly be a decent match with the Ref 5.5 Amp.
My gut feeling would be to look closer at the HiVi speaker and consider a more conventional and more powerful Tube Amp. Opera has some push-pull ones with multiple pairs of output tubes, as do some other chinese tube amp makers that have some profile in the west, which give a fairly decent level of output power, look at something in the 100W ballpark.
Ciao T
This is a 300B Parallel Single Ended Amplifier with a claimed output power of 18 Watt.
This means you need a speaker which is not too disturbed by a fairly high source impedance. Also, given the very limited power available the speaker should have 94dB/2.83V/1m sensitivity (real, not made up) if it offers a genuine 8 ohm impedance. If it is (like it is very common) essentially a 4 Ohm speaker you need to add 3dB more, so it would have to offer 97dB/2.83V/1m.
A cursory look via the net does not seem to suggest any of the models you list as suitable, in fact they all seem depressingly unsuited.
I heard HiVi at shows and their stuff seemed okay, nothing earth shattering, but seemed well designed and made. Nothing in their lineup I'd care to pair with an SE Amp though.
I came across a shop selling CAV in Athens when I was there on business and had a listen, to that exact ostentatious nouveau riche (or pretend nouveau riche - read chav) speaker you seem to have an eye on. To say I was underwhelmed by the audition would be a compliment.
The whole system was rather bad, maybe the CAV electronics where the cause, not the speakers, but I did not bother to find out. It seemed very much targeted at AV and was just awful with music.
No Idea on Sheng Yang. Is that not where they make the chinese Mig's based on 1960's soviet designs?
As I am not an expert (or even knowledgeable) on chinese speakers I cannot make positive recommendations from that market. At some time Opera made their own horn speaker which would possibly be a decent match with the Ref 5.5 Amp.
My gut feeling would be to look closer at the HiVi speaker and consider a more conventional and more powerful Tube Amp. Opera has some push-pull ones with multiple pairs of output tubes, as do some other chinese tube amp makers that have some profile in the west, which give a fairly decent level of output power, look at something in the 100W ballpark.
Ciao T
Ok, thanks for your opinion.
As for the amp, I have it, so it's not a matter of lets just get another one. As it happens, I have been driving my CDM 7NTs quite well on a mengyue X1, which is 20W, and the CDMs are no more than 88dB at best. So I know it's realistically possible, even though the numbers tend to disagree.
As a question: why would the R5.5 be considered as unconventional? It appears to be pretty conventional to me. If not, I doubt anything is conventional in tube world. Just an observation...
I did have a brief listen to the MD-EX3Gs in the mall here, and I agree they don't blow me away for what they look like, especially compared to my CDM NTs, I expected more.
The seller of the R5.5 suggested Opera Consonance speakers (M8, M15, M18, which are affordable, being in the same price league as the HiVi and the CAVs), and Aural Cantus is also a brand thrown around a lot, though not as high efficiency as the Opera's.
Now if we go for affordable high efficiency speakers, I'd be very interested in knowing my options, with up to 3k GBP to spend. Currently size does not matter too much,and I plan to buy a couple of 845 monos in the near future as well,just for ha-ha's.
As for the amp, I have it, so it's not a matter of lets just get another one. As it happens, I have been driving my CDM 7NTs quite well on a mengyue X1, which is 20W, and the CDMs are no more than 88dB at best. So I know it's realistically possible, even though the numbers tend to disagree.
As a question: why would the R5.5 be considered as unconventional? It appears to be pretty conventional to me. If not, I doubt anything is conventional in tube world. Just an observation...
I did have a brief listen to the MD-EX3Gs in the mall here, and I agree they don't blow me away for what they look like, especially compared to my CDM NTs, I expected more.
The seller of the R5.5 suggested Opera Consonance speakers (M8, M15, M18, which are affordable, being in the same price league as the HiVi and the CAVs), and Aural Cantus is also a brand thrown around a lot, though not as high efficiency as the Opera's.
Now if we go for affordable high efficiency speakers, I'd be very interested in knowing my options, with up to 3k GBP to spend. Currently size does not matter too much,and I plan to buy a couple of 845 monos in the near future as well,just for ha-ha's.
Curious - whereabouts are you?
There are indeed some undiscovered gems. Problem is, I haven't discovered them yet - at least not in passive speakers. Like Thorsten, I've heard CAV and can't decide if I dislike the sound or the appearance more. So far I've been very happy buying up fairly cheap (under 3000rmb) active speakers and heavily modding them. The ones I've been playing with most recently are from www.fayou.com Your budget looks to be much much bigger than mine so I can only guess you're still on a Western-sized salary...
Did you buy the CDM 7's in UK and import them? B&W are inordinately expensive here, must be import tax or something.
I'm in Shanghai, so pretty much at the most expensive part of China.
And yes, I bought the B&W's when I was still in the UK, quite a few years ago now. STill love them and complement them with an MJ acoustics Reference I sub (also from the UK).
Yes, B&W's are insanely expensive even though they are made in Shenzen or so. Problem is that indeed CHina charges quite a bit on taxes. Considering that any product for the western market has to be re-imported, prices for western products tend to be quite high in China. Hence I want to focus on the local market. Like Consonance is pretty reputable, and not one of the cheapest as a result. The others are quite moddable.
Back to speakers, I spotted BD-Designs, which look amazing, but so do their prices! Real Dutch prices if you ask me (ashamed to admit I'm one of them!). Now the design rocks, and hopefully so does the sound. Now I don't needa flip-over design, but teh style I do like. If I could get something like that for around 3k GBP, that'd be awesome!
And yes, I bought the B&W's when I was still in the UK, quite a few years ago now. STill love them and complement them with an MJ acoustics Reference I sub (also from the UK).
Yes, B&W's are insanely expensive even though they are made in Shenzen or so. Problem is that indeed CHina charges quite a bit on taxes. Considering that any product for the western market has to be re-imported, prices for western products tend to be quite high in China. Hence I want to focus on the local market. Like Consonance is pretty reputable, and not one of the cheapest as a result. The others are quite moddable.
Back to speakers, I spotted BD-Designs, which look amazing, but so do their prices! Real Dutch prices if you ask me (ashamed to admit I'm one of them!). Now the design rocks, and hopefully so does the sound. Now I don't needa flip-over design, but teh style I do like. If I could get something like that for around 3k GBP, that'd be awesome!
Hi,
Too bad.
So, how does the Opera Amp drive the B&W's.
The CDM7 are fairly decent speakers, you would have to (even in china) spend real money to beat them comprehensively.
I probably would still not attempt to drive them with something like 20 Watt.
Of course, they will make sound (even with 1 Watt they will), but you will find you hit the "ceiling" quickly.
My current speakers are 90dB/2.83V/1m and around 5 Ohm, I drive them with a 35 Watt Tube Amp on the 4 Ohm Tap. Using highly dynamic music (e.g. not compressed to 6dB dynamic range to sound LOUD) I can overload the system quite easily.
Due to the relationships in power and loudness, double power is only a small increase in loudness, so I am currently looking to boost the power levels in my system to something in the 200W region.
I know, I should just build better (read higher efficiency) speakers, but that is another story.
It is about as conventional as 300B PSE Amplifiers come. It is just that 300B PSE Amplifiers as such are considered a rare and refined breed...
Go please try them. They may not be for you, but it's worth finding out. Opera has decent demo facilities, so next time you go to Beijing set up a demo with your Amp and whatever speaker you fancy (I'd say go straight for the M15 if size is no issue).
That would be Aurum Cantus. Their speakers are a mixed bag. Some are pretty good. They do get imported into the west and get reviews, so you can get some feel.
My advise?
Buy a pair of Tannoy Monitor Red 15" Drivers (made in the 1960's in the UK to standards noever re-attained subsequently) of e-bay or from a source in the UK, get a company in China (I can dig out my contacts in Guangzhou) to build you a pair of GRF Autograph copies in plywood.
You will be grinning like the proverbial cheshire cat every time you listen to that system, plus any chinese audiophile will give you "respect".
Of course, they are also nearly the biggest speakers you could get. And as I found during my visits in China, size does matter (Jisbon's are way too small)...
Ciao T
Too bad.
So, how does the Opera Amp drive the B&W's.
The CDM7 are fairly decent speakers, you would have to (even in china) spend real money to beat them comprehensively.
I probably would still not attempt to drive them with something like 20 Watt.
Of course, they will make sound (even with 1 Watt they will), but you will find you hit the "ceiling" quickly.
My current speakers are 90dB/2.83V/1m and around 5 Ohm, I drive them with a 35 Watt Tube Amp on the 4 Ohm Tap. Using highly dynamic music (e.g. not compressed to 6dB dynamic range to sound LOUD) I can overload the system quite easily.
Due to the relationships in power and loudness, double power is only a small increase in loudness, so I am currently looking to boost the power levels in my system to something in the 200W region.
I know, I should just build better (read higher efficiency) speakers, but that is another story.
It is about as conventional as 300B PSE Amplifiers come. It is just that 300B PSE Amplifiers as such are considered a rare and refined breed...
Go please try them. They may not be for you, but it's worth finding out. Opera has decent demo facilities, so next time you go to Beijing set up a demo with your Amp and whatever speaker you fancy (I'd say go straight for the M15 if size is no issue).
That would be Aurum Cantus. Their speakers are a mixed bag. Some are pretty good. They do get imported into the west and get reviews, so you can get some feel.
My advise?
Buy a pair of Tannoy Monitor Red 15" Drivers (made in the 1960's in the UK to standards noever re-attained subsequently) of e-bay or from a source in the UK, get a company in China (I can dig out my contacts in Guangzhou) to build you a pair of GRF Autograph copies in plywood.
You will be grinning like the proverbial cheshire cat every time you listen to that system, plus any chinese audiophile will give you "respect".
Of course, they are also nearly the biggest speakers you could get. And as I found during my visits in China, size does matter (Jisbon's are way too small)...
Ciao T
There's a new 'bullet' train so I'm just 45mins from you I think. Haven't tried it yet.
I bought CM1s here a few years back, the price premium was about 20% I think. Drove them from a Xindak amp which I bought here. Eventually I couldn't resist the urge to activate them as the bass response is peaked up with a huge air-core inductor. I started out using foobar's active plug-in and went from there. Strangely, having acquired various other local active speakers, I now find them too coloured and stopped playing them many months ago. How weird is that?
Oh, I didn't know B&W had moved to offshore production for the higher value lines. Those always used to be made in Worthing. I'm a bit out of date, left UK in 2005.
I think such designs will be made in China sometime in the future, if there's appreciable demand. Maybe they'll just be clones. Then the price will be far lower...
Ah, i just noticed, you are in hangzhou, yes, should be under an hour by g or d train. I got my r5.5 from the shanghai agent of consonance at zhejiang zhong lu near Nanjing dong lu. I'll ask him to set up the opera speakers some time. There is also a tannoy dealer at the same place.
As for the ls-310, in Europe they are sold under the name "vincent". Some German forums and reviews oar them with kitchen speakers and tannoy speakers (cannot remember the models though), in those reviews they said the ls-310 performs goof, bur actually performs amazingly when paired with low power tube amps. Thats what the Germans said... in euro land they go for 4400e, whilst here they go for about 12000 rmb.
Taxes have gone up since u came to China. The difference seems to be closer to 30% now...
That jungson seems quite impressive by the way! Bet its not in the 3k gbp range
As for the ls-310, in Europe they are sold under the name "vincent". Some German forums and reviews oar them with kitchen speakers and tannoy speakers (cannot remember the models though), in those reviews they said the ls-310 performs goof, bur actually performs amazingly when paired with low power tube amps. Thats what the Germans said... in euro land they go for 4400e, whilst here they go for about 12000 rmb.
Taxes have gone up since u came to China. The difference seems to be closer to 30% now...
That jungson seems quite impressive by the way! Bet its not in the 3k gbp range
Hi,
Please do. Also have a listen what the Tannoy Dealer has. Note, I cannpt recommend any mainstream Speakers from Tannoy, STRICTLY only the historic lines no later than the Monitor Gold (not HPD, not any of the Super Red or Super Gold) and the current replica's which are only in some of the top models of Tannoys "Prestige" range, basically strictly the Westminster Royal, Canterbury, Yorkminster and Kensington.
I cannot recommend the so-called "Tulip Waveguide" Tannoy coaxials or any of the non-coaxial models, they are at best okay.
My suggestion instead is to buy some historical drivers of e-bay (< 2K GBP) and to have a pair of GRF Autograph enclosures made locally (<1K GBP), which will give you a speaker with a performance at least equal to the Westminster Royal.
Tannoy actually made one runs of the GRF-A for japan (Autograph Millenium), where they are more expansive than any other Tannoy model and more sought after.
Here some more Autograph info:
tannoy
And a Picture of the beasties attached...
Hmm, the speaker is complete generica in terms of design. To suggest it works well with low power tube Amp's seems a little adventurous.
If not in looks, then in terms of general it seems comparable with what is playing in my living room (10" Woofer, 5" Midrange, Circular Ribbon Tweeter Floorstanding), which is around 50m^2 and not heavily damped.
At least in that room an EL34 Push-Pull Amp with around 35 Watt is insufficient for really loud (realistic) levels with classical and jazz that has not been compressed to death.
But maybe those guys never play music loud?
Well, it looks like some of the older Dynaudio Models. These 5-Way systems where kind of interesting in the 1980 (e,g Pentamyd) but the resulting sound was, how shall we say, interesting...
Getting a 5 Way system to work is seriously challenging...
I'd expect them to cost less than the CAV ones, at best similar (and similar sound as well, probably not as good). Again, do go and listen, maybe they actually are very good, despite being of a kind of design Dynaudio never got to work right...
Ciao T
Please do. Also have a listen what the Tannoy Dealer has. Note, I cannpt recommend any mainstream Speakers from Tannoy, STRICTLY only the historic lines no later than the Monitor Gold (not HPD, not any of the Super Red or Super Gold) and the current replica's which are only in some of the top models of Tannoys "Prestige" range, basically strictly the Westminster Royal, Canterbury, Yorkminster and Kensington.
I cannot recommend the so-called "Tulip Waveguide" Tannoy coaxials or any of the non-coaxial models, they are at best okay.
My suggestion instead is to buy some historical drivers of e-bay (< 2K GBP) and to have a pair of GRF Autograph enclosures made locally (<1K GBP), which will give you a speaker with a performance at least equal to the Westminster Royal.
Tannoy actually made one runs of the GRF-A for japan (Autograph Millenium), where they are more expansive than any other Tannoy model and more sought after.
Here some more Autograph info:
tannoy
And a Picture of the beasties attached...
Hmm, the speaker is complete generica in terms of design. To suggest it works well with low power tube Amp's seems a little adventurous.
If not in looks, then in terms of general it seems comparable with what is playing in my living room (10" Woofer, 5" Midrange, Circular Ribbon Tweeter Floorstanding), which is around 50m^2 and not heavily damped.
At least in that room an EL34 Push-Pull Amp with around 35 Watt is insufficient for really loud (realistic) levels with classical and jazz that has not been compressed to death.
But maybe those guys never play music loud?
Well, it looks like some of the older Dynaudio Models. These 5-Way systems where kind of interesting in the 1980 (e,g Pentamyd) but the resulting sound was, how shall we say, interesting...
Getting a 5 Way system to work is seriously challenging...
Bet its not in the 3k gbp range
I'd expect them to cost less than the CAV ones, at best similar (and similar sound as well, probably not as good). Again, do go and listen, maybe they actually are very good, despite being of a kind of design Dynaudio never got to work right...
Ciao T
Attachments
Hi,
I attach a piccie. The enclosures are cheap commercial ones, which I lined with stone fillets internally to get rid of the panel vibrations. Crossover is a first order series type. Total cost with copper foil inductors, silver wire and all that, drivers and enclosures was maybe 450 Quid. Generally audiophiles that hear them seem to think they are quite something, I think they are okayish.
Nothing? There are many options for supertweeters, most I feel are better than Tannoy.
When I had 15" Tannoys (Monitor Reds in Corner Yorks) I used Visaton TL16H hornloaded supertweeters with them. We did compare them to a number of others, including Tannoy. I did not feel that any of the others bettered them
My current Speakers use a circular ribbon tweeter that goes as high as the Tannoy Supertweeter, give or take a little.
Ciao T
I attach a piccie. The enclosures are cheap commercial ones, which I lined with stone fillets internally to get rid of the panel vibrations. Crossover is a first order series type. Total cost with copper foil inductors, silver wire and all that, drivers and enclosures was maybe 450 Quid. Generally audiophiles that hear them seem to think they are quite something, I think they are okayish.
Nothing? There are many options for supertweeters, most I feel are better than Tannoy.
When I had 15" Tannoys (Monitor Reds in Corner Yorks) I used Visaton TL16H hornloaded supertweeters with them. We did compare them to a number of others, including Tannoy. I did not feel that any of the others bettered them
My current Speakers use a circular ribbon tweeter that goes as high as the Tannoy Supertweeter, give or take a little.
Ciao T
Attachments
Ah, that's a pretty cool idea actually: using existing cabinets and replacing the drivers and crossovers. You may know the website of troelsgravesen. He has some kick butt designs. I like the PMS he put together. Some canadian made real SF cremona lookalikes, but getting a cabinet like that pre-made is not gonna be easy to find. I like the curved cabinets, so if I can find something that is half decent, and mod that with new drivers and crossovers, based on whatever troelsgravesen has, that should work decently as long as I ensure the internal volumes match the drive units, right?
Hifi plaza in Shanghai also has a small shop that does components, including inductors and jenssen caps, so parts aplenty.
Before I go there, I better check out some of the high efficiency stuff they have in that place though.
Hifi plaza in Shanghai also has a small shop that does components, including inductors and jenssen caps, so parts aplenty.
Before I go there, I better check out some of the high efficiency stuff they have in that place though.
Hi,
Actually, the cabinets where bought empty, with the holes customised to fit the drivers I had. They originally fit a HiVi/Swans Kit. Cost was very low. Build quality was (as I expected) so-so, rather resonant, but the finishing was okay.
I lined all interior surfaces I could get at with stone slabs, put in place using 2-component epoxy. The combination of the MDF panels with the stone slabs makes a very non-resonant enclosure.
I also used some "right size" ceramic flowerpot as sub-enclosures for the midranges and removed the stuffing from cheap pillows for use as damping material.
I am mentioned occasionally (mainly re. tube design), though not by name.
More or less, yes. The baffle shape also figures in this. So you should look for a design with a similar width baffle.
But as long as you are running that Opera SE Amp you REALLY want something way more efficient than most of Troels designs (he does some above average efficient designs).
As said, if you buy a pair of classic Tannoy Drivers and get a pair of enclosures build (there is a Shop in Guangzhous HiFi Building that has been doing them, they are the ones I was thinking of working with for exporting replica GRF's to Europe) you will be within your budget, you will have speakers that go down to 30Hz AND are quite high in efficiency (around 96-99dB, depending on which generation of Drivers you use) and are still very hard to beat for sound quality even by super expensive "Ultra Highend" Stuff.
BTW, Torels also has pages on Tannoy Drivers.
Ciao R
Actually, the cabinets where bought empty, with the holes customised to fit the drivers I had. They originally fit a HiVi/Swans Kit. Cost was very low. Build quality was (as I expected) so-so, rather resonant, but the finishing was okay.
I lined all interior surfaces I could get at with stone slabs, put in place using 2-component epoxy. The combination of the MDF panels with the stone slabs makes a very non-resonant enclosure.
I also used some "right size" ceramic flowerpot as sub-enclosures for the midranges and removed the stuffing from cheap pillows for use as damping material.
I am mentioned occasionally (mainly re. tube design), though not by name.
More or less, yes. The baffle shape also figures in this. So you should look for a design with a similar width baffle.
But as long as you are running that Opera SE Amp you REALLY want something way more efficient than most of Troels designs (he does some above average efficient designs).
As said, if you buy a pair of classic Tannoy Drivers and get a pair of enclosures build (there is a Shop in Guangzhous HiFi Building that has been doing them, they are the ones I was thinking of working with for exporting replica GRF's to Europe) you will be within your budget, you will have speakers that go down to 30Hz AND are quite high in efficiency (around 96-99dB, depending on which generation of Drivers you use) and are still very hard to beat for sound quality even by super expensive "Ultra Highend" Stuff.
BTW, Torels also has pages on Tannoy Drivers.
Ciao R
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For your information, Fei Lo(shanghai) was a full range cinema speaker maker in tubes amp era. Now, their main business focus shifts to Car audio unit, so was I told. Fortunately, still a lot of old vintage units are circling around:
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