Mike,
keantoken,
there`s nothing vague about this matter.
That`s not our problem, rather the instrument maker`s dilemma. The overtones of acoustic instruments are rarely multiple integers of fundamentals and can mean serious dissonances. Our job is designing amplifiers, which faithfully reproduce those sounds.
keantoken,
there`s nothing vague about this matter.
Pan said:Do you know for sure that the redbook layer and the SACD layer used the exact same master?
Did you level match? SACD and redbook often have different levels.
It's easy to draw wrong conclusions.
I've compared a SACD with the same CD also. All these variables is the reason why I said "I believe"
The kind of differences that I've heard were never noticed by me on any CD.
The things I listen for in music isn't that much affected by volume levels and my system sound relatively the same over a fairly wide volume range.
Pan said:......... however a roll off of about 1/10 of a dB at 10kHz and 2-3/10 of a dB at 20kHz is easily heard. These small differences often are described as something else than a "roll off" such as cleaner, higher resolution and so on. This is probably the major reason for audible diffrencec in cables, only people are not aware of it and prefer to believe in vodoo and snake oil instead of accepting science.
I believe the problem lie in the way that the brain perceive sound against what we measure, for instance mid and high freqs influence bass quality.
Pan said:
I'm not worried about 100Khz but I do think 30 to 40Khz might make a difference.
André
I don't get it. If I use PXTone to manipulate a sine as in the "bad" example, it doesn't look like it a bit. How was these waveforms produced? I still don't believe in the "law of evenly falling harmonics" that adding 2nd order harmonics masks "nasty" distortion products. Just listen to a sine that way. It'll sound like a saw. Some people seem to like a manipulated "warm", "tubey" sound with "texture" and "body", and that's OK, but the quest must continue in the direction of no coloration at all.Lumba Ogir said:
Jomenvisst, God Jul!nelsonvandal,
(The masking phenomenon usually denotes masking of certain simultaneously present tones, has a different mechanism and a weaker impact).
Very Merry Christmas.
Probably with a more capable and reliable equipment. What you have more or less is a toy providing misleading information.
It`s time to get rid of some misconceptions. Second harmonics don`t make the sound grainy, JFETs don`t sound grainy and single-ended stages produce less graininess. You have no idea where the graininess and coloration comes from, that software fools you completely. Delete it now.
I`ve never put it that way, not even right after twelve-fifteen beers. The ear masks some harmonic and IM distortion. Lifting the often poor level of low order harmonics improves the tonal balance (perceived sound).
(The masking phenomenon usually denotes masking of certain simultaneously present tones, has a different mechanism and a weaker impact).
It`s not a law, but the aural harmonic distortion happens to fall evenly, in increasing order. See below and in post #150. This, of course, does not necessarily need to prevent you from believing that the produced distortion of each harmonic order ideally should be zero.
Very Merry Christmas.
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Lumba Ogir said:
Sorry, I didn't realize my error at the time of posting. There are probably flash programs out there that do a much better. Anyways, I looked at the output of the program with my oscilloscope and found it had some funny shaped crossover distortion, most likely "towards zero" rounding rather than true decimal rounding which sometimes happens as a result of improper FPU programming.
Anyway, if we had a reliable program we could use like this we might be able to put our knowledge into more tangible form.
Merry Christmas,
- keantoken
Lumba Ogir said:
Maybe you should add "to me" in that text?
;-)
Because to me, reducing total distortion by reducing even order harmonics have given much better results. I have tried it in power amps, line stages and mic preamps and confirmed by measurements.
Once the distortion gets below a certain level it becomes inaudible and it does not matter what spectrum the distortion has. Also confirmed by blind listening tests.
/Peter
Lumba Ogir said:
Utterly :bs:, Lumba. You either picked those graphs out of context, or those graphs are flat wrong.
Look at fig. c That cannot be the graph of a sum of harmonics. Proof: A sum of sines is as much an odd function as the sine itself. This means that:
a1*sin(w*t)+a2*sin(2*w*t)+...+an*sin(n*w*t) = -(a1*sin(-w*t)+a2*sin(-2*w*t)+...+an*sin(-n*w*t))
OTOH, sin(n*w*t) = -sin(n*w*(t+T/2))
The above shows that a harmonic sum should be symmetrical against the x axis and t=t+T/2
Graph c) obviously isn't. I can tell it has some non-harmonic components added, something like sin(n*w*t)^k The same in graph b), it's asymmetric as well.
Attached is the right graph to replace c) for a 1KHz fundamental (I didn't bother to normalize the amplitudes).
I'm not saying that THD is anywhere the universal QA metric, it's just about using the right arguments. In the future, if you need to make a point, do yourself a favour and stick to the subjective stuff. Apparently, everything else might blow straight in your face.
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fredex said:
For the most part I agree, but I'm not sure it is so easy to decide using the simple tests. Remember, the brain is a COMPUTER, not entirely an analog invention.
Personally, when I lay down to rest, after a bit of relaxation I can hear my pocket watch ticking about 6 feet away. If I get too excited, the ticking fades away. But once I relax again the ticking comes back to haunt me. If I get up and start listening to music, I can pick out more details. It really does depend on states of mind and relaxation. But everyone is different, it is probably best if we all do our thing whilst trying our best not to get in someone else's way. For the most part, an engineer will design his amps in whichever way he sees fit and sell them, so there's not much point in arguing. If you don't like any of the amps out there, build your own.
- keantoken
Terrible, MJL. Meany. 
Relaxing is tough. It has to do with hypnosis/meditation and I practice every time I go to bed. Once you get relaxed enough there are plenty of noises that can distract you. Ordinarily low noises will cause problems.
Yes, I meditate. ooohmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Clear thinking depends a lot in relaxation and inner peace. when one's mind is clear there is a lot more potential for creative thought and ingenuity.
There is plenty of meditation-related material on the 'net. There are also plenty of clockwork monkeys out there to try and turn you into an enlightened machine.
- keantoken
Relaxing is tough. It has to do with hypnosis/meditation and I practice every time I go to bed. Once you get relaxed enough there are plenty of noises that can distract you. Ordinarily low noises will cause problems.
Yes, I meditate. ooohmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Clear thinking depends a lot in relaxation and inner peace. when one's mind is clear there is a lot more potential for creative thought and ingenuity.
There is plenty of meditation-related material on the 'net. There are also plenty of clockwork monkeys out there to try and turn you into an enlightened machine.
- keantoken
Peter,
compose yourself, you have only made a lot of hugger-mugger statements in this thread so far.
I `ve said why wide bandwidth is needed concerning high frequency harmonics. It is also needed to keep other distortions like TIM and DIM low.
The frequency range of musical instruments is much wider than you seem to realize. 20Hz-20kHz does not even fully cover the human voice.
compose yourself, you have only made a lot of hugger-mugger statements in this thread so far.
Certainly so. But it does hurt to know those limitations.
What do you mean by that?
Research shows that the ear/brain does register ultrasonic spectral energy influencing sound perception.
I `ve said why wide bandwidth is needed concerning high frequency harmonics. It is also needed to keep other distortions like TIM and DIM low.
The frequency range of musical instruments is much wider than you seem to realize. 20Hz-20kHz does not even fully cover the human voice.
Somewhat unusual procedure indicating a peculiar sonic taste to me. By the way, how do you reduce even order harmonics with a selective precision?
The question is rather, what spectrum the sound has by that treatment.
Lumba,
do you have a soundcard or if not, can you borrow one?
If you're in Stockholm or not very far we can do some test together.
Loop some music thru the sound card and then loop the same material thru your high distortion amp. Normalize these files and send them to me without telling which file is which and I will do a blind test trying to identify them. If what you say is thrue I will not be able to tell the files apart.
When that is done, I will present to you two similar files where the distortion spectrum is low but different to what you suggest and I want You to identify them blind.
Are you game?
/Peter
do you have a soundcard or if not, can you borrow one?
If you're in Stockholm or not very far we can do some test together.
Loop some music thru the sound card and then loop the same material thru your high distortion amp. Normalize these files and send them to me without telling which file is which and I will do a blind test trying to identify them. If what you say is thrue I will not be able to tell the files apart.
When that is done, I will present to you two similar files where the distortion spectrum is low but different to what you suggest and I want You to identify them blind.
Are you game?
/Peter
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