traderbam said:
I disagree with the above. Here's an interesting read, note the date of publication:
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm
PMA said:It is not only about input filter, but more about PCB design and construction of the whole instrument.
IMHO this is the key factor ("how the Mhz affect the 20hz-20khz sound") of different sound of different opamps, cables, transistor circuits etc. Something that DIYers usually do not care about
Can be spelled with just three letters - EMI
Maybe not something DIY:ers neglect in general but rather lack of understanding... requires some kind of EE education to be familiar with I guess.
Cheers Michael
Nelson Pass said:I haven't smoked anything in a long time. What kind of
reply were you seeking?
PMA said:But I have drunk outstanding white wine
He was seeking for an information
I am sorry to say I am a smoker.
I use John Silver Extra Light Cigarette Tobacco. Choice Quality since 1947.
In my country this extra light blend has a Yellow Label.
Wouldnt surprise me if it has crossed The Atlantic Ocean, after being picked in Virginia state of America.
Possibly by some mexican illlegal immigrants or low paid black people
who have their origins, Roots in Africa and were brought by slavedrivers across big water.
Now, in a forum context, the word REPLY is written on the button for any post.
It may be a question, answer or comment.
Or maybe you have an ANSWER button, Nelson?
Because I almost never see you post any question about anything.
That we might enlighten you. There are members around that can do this. If you dont believe --- try us!
I wouldnt think you know it all. Because if you say you do, it only means you do not know about life, really.
Can also mean you have stopped learning.
One thing most of us wont stop doing until we are some distance below the surface of earth
Reading my posts where I ask for a reply it is clear there is no expressed question. Just some statements.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=995966#post995966
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=998235#post998235
Which means I was waiting for some form of COMMENT from the HIGHER authorities in audio at this place.
Some reaction or feedback on my idea.
My posts were is several weeks ago, I hardly know exactly what went through my mind.
And as I cant recall this more than vaguely, it was probably not at all important.
-----------------------
Regards
to
Nelson Pass Laboratories
from
lineup audio laboratory
>> lineup.awardspace.com <<
Pro Recording Engineer/speaker Designer On Lp Quality
Some background on Ken Kreisel (of M&K speakers):
http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/136/
http://www.stereophile.com//loudspeakerreviews/137/
I posted this about 10 years ago on another forum:
Keep in mind as you read this that Ken Kreisel has devoted many years
to extracting the highest level of quality from the LP format.
For years certain LPs have been noted for their excellent quality. There
were some releases in the 1970s that were noted for quality and the word was
going around that they were mixed using Magneplanar loudspeakers. For years
I've wondered who the people were behind these great recordings and recently
found out in an interview with Ken Kreisel reported in the February, 1996
issue of Audio.
Pete B.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Some background on Ken Kreisel by the author, Daniel Levitin:
Kreisel's career, and M&K Sound's history over the last 20 years, in many
ways parallels the major breakthroughs in high-performance audio. In 1977,
Kreisel opened the world's first exclusively direct-to-disc recording
studio and its companion company, RealTime Records. That same year saw the
introduction of the Volkswoofer, the first internally powered subwoofer.
This was followed by the first digitally recorded DBX-encoded LP (1979),
The first compact discs released by a U.S. label (1982), and the first
transmission-line dome tweeter (1992).
Kreisel's two partners at M&K complemented his background as an award-
winning recording engineer. Jonas Miller (the "M" of M&K, now deceased)
owned a respected high-end audio store in Los Angeles. Chief Scientist
Lester Field was formerly the Chief Scientist and Vice President of Hughes
Aircraft and had been a Professor of Electrical Engineering at CalTech and
Stanford. Kreisel designed the first M&K subwoofer to help Miller sell
more electrostatic and planar speakers. He designed the now famous M&K
satellites to go with it when he couldn't find a satisfactory reference
monitor to use in the Real Time recording studios. Kreisel recently spoke
with me about his philosophy of speaker design and audio in general.
snip...
Ken K.: ... And Jonas Miller was a dealer for Quad and Magneplanar. In
fact, we
were one of the world's largest Quad dealers. And I had built some
subwoofers
to supplement these electrostatics.
snip...
A couple of our customers were Steely Dan's Walter Becker and their
recording
engineer, Roger Nichols. Walter asked me to design a reference monitor
system for them. At the time, they were out at Devonshire Studios recording
Pretzel Logic.
DL: So this must have been back around 1973 or so.
Ken K.: Right -- it was 1973. I built a double woofer that was similar to
our
push-pull, with two opposing 12 inch drivers mounted sideways in a cabinet.
Devonshire's control room was small, but I used this subwoofer along with
Magneplanars for the top end. And they loved it; they had never heard a
flat speaker system like that before.
snip...
DL: One of the things that has changed since you started is the emergence
of the CD as the standard. Your RealTime records kept a lot of audiophiles
in vinyl because of their high, direct-to-disc quality. Have you thought
about releasing any of those on CD?
Ken K.: Yes, we're eventually going to release all of the albums on CD.
And I'm
releasing some new recordings on CD, too, in the near future. I've built
a mastering studio at my house, and I'll be mastering those new releases and
the reissues myself, using Wadia 20 bit converters.
snip...
DL: What's your opinion about vinyl vs. CD?
Ken K.: If you listen to a phono system and it sounds more real to you, I
say
that's great, because it's what you want. But don't believe that because
it sounds more real to you that it is more nearly perfect technically,
because it probably isn't. One of the biggest revelations for me was the
experience of disc cutting: I realized what a limited medium the LP is.
People have no idea how much intermodulation distortion is on an LP,
particularly music with heavy bass -- for example, organ music. You can
have tens of percent of IM distortion. And when people first heard digital,
many said, "Gee, it sounds like a lot of the notes are missing." Well there
were notes missing -- the IM distortion was missing!
DL: Tom Stockham said something interesting to me about this. He said if
you
put a group of audiophiles in a studio control room and ask them to choose
between an analog tape and a digital tape of a performing group, a great many
will choose the analog tape. But if you ask them to choose between the tapes
and then let them compare the sound to the group performing live in the
studio, most will choose the digital. So without a reference, they prefer
the sound of distortion.
Ken K.: I believe that's true with some listeners. People talk about depth
in an
LP, and they say, "Oh, listen to that great room ambience." Well a lot of
the room ambience LP listeners think they are hearing is groove echo! When
you listen to an LP you can easily hear pre-echo right before a track starts
and post-echo when it ends. And that's going on all through the LP!
There's
an "echo" button on cutting lathes that spreads the grooves apart before and
after a transition from a quiet passage to a loud one, to reduce intergroove
echo. But that uses up a lot of space. If you used that all the time, you'd
only be able to get seven minutes on a side.
What people don't realize is that on an LP, you're constantly listening to
a lot of pre- and post-echo, conveying an artificial depth that was never
heard by the microphones, while intermodulation distortion is generating
"notes" that nobody actually played. Then there's harmonic distortion
which can reach tens of percent, introducing harmonics that were never
produced by the original instruments. (I'm not saying it doesn't sound
great because it can.) Then to add insult to injury, the high frequency
response of an LP rolls off as you get farther in toward the center, not to
mention the increase in distortion.
traderbam said:
Some background on Ken Kreisel (of M&K speakers):
http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/136/
http://www.stereophile.com//loudspeakerreviews/137/
I posted this about 10 years ago on another forum:
Keep in mind as you read this that Ken Kreisel has devoted many years
to extracting the highest level of quality from the LP format.
For years certain LPs have been noted for their excellent quality. There
were some releases in the 1970s that were noted for quality and the word was
going around that they were mixed using Magneplanar loudspeakers. For years
I've wondered who the people were behind these great recordings and recently
found out in an interview with Ken Kreisel reported in the February, 1996
issue of Audio.
Pete B.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Some background on Ken Kreisel by the author, Daniel Levitin:
Kreisel's career, and M&K Sound's history over the last 20 years, in many
ways parallels the major breakthroughs in high-performance audio. In 1977,
Kreisel opened the world's first exclusively direct-to-disc recording
studio and its companion company, RealTime Records. That same year saw the
introduction of the Volkswoofer, the first internally powered subwoofer.
This was followed by the first digitally recorded DBX-encoded LP (1979),
The first compact discs released by a U.S. label (1982), and the first
transmission-line dome tweeter (1992).
Kreisel's two partners at M&K complemented his background as an award-
winning recording engineer. Jonas Miller (the "M" of M&K, now deceased)
owned a respected high-end audio store in Los Angeles. Chief Scientist
Lester Field was formerly the Chief Scientist and Vice President of Hughes
Aircraft and had been a Professor of Electrical Engineering at CalTech and
Stanford. Kreisel designed the first M&K subwoofer to help Miller sell
more electrostatic and planar speakers. He designed the now famous M&K
satellites to go with it when he couldn't find a satisfactory reference
monitor to use in the Real Time recording studios. Kreisel recently spoke
with me about his philosophy of speaker design and audio in general.
snip...
Ken K.: ... And Jonas Miller was a dealer for Quad and Magneplanar. In
fact, we
were one of the world's largest Quad dealers. And I had built some
subwoofers
to supplement these electrostatics.
snip...
A couple of our customers were Steely Dan's Walter Becker and their
recording
engineer, Roger Nichols. Walter asked me to design a reference monitor
system for them. At the time, they were out at Devonshire Studios recording
Pretzel Logic.
DL: So this must have been back around 1973 or so.
Ken K.: Right -- it was 1973. I built a double woofer that was similar to
our
push-pull, with two opposing 12 inch drivers mounted sideways in a cabinet.
Devonshire's control room was small, but I used this subwoofer along with
Magneplanars for the top end. And they loved it; they had never heard a
flat speaker system like that before.
snip...
DL: One of the things that has changed since you started is the emergence
of the CD as the standard. Your RealTime records kept a lot of audiophiles
in vinyl because of their high, direct-to-disc quality. Have you thought
about releasing any of those on CD?
Ken K.: Yes, we're eventually going to release all of the albums on CD.
And I'm
releasing some new recordings on CD, too, in the near future. I've built
a mastering studio at my house, and I'll be mastering those new releases and
the reissues myself, using Wadia 20 bit converters.
snip...
DL: What's your opinion about vinyl vs. CD?
Ken K.: If you listen to a phono system and it sounds more real to you, I
say
that's great, because it's what you want. But don't believe that because
it sounds more real to you that it is more nearly perfect technically,
because it probably isn't. One of the biggest revelations for me was the
experience of disc cutting: I realized what a limited medium the LP is.
People have no idea how much intermodulation distortion is on an LP,
particularly music with heavy bass -- for example, organ music. You can
have tens of percent of IM distortion. And when people first heard digital,
many said, "Gee, it sounds like a lot of the notes are missing." Well there
were notes missing -- the IM distortion was missing!
DL: Tom Stockham said something interesting to me about this. He said if
you
put a group of audiophiles in a studio control room and ask them to choose
between an analog tape and a digital tape of a performing group, a great many
will choose the analog tape. But if you ask them to choose between the tapes
and then let them compare the sound to the group performing live in the
studio, most will choose the digital. So without a reference, they prefer
the sound of distortion.
Ken K.: I believe that's true with some listeners. People talk about depth
in an
LP, and they say, "Oh, listen to that great room ambience." Well a lot of
the room ambience LP listeners think they are hearing is groove echo! When
you listen to an LP you can easily hear pre-echo right before a track starts
and post-echo when it ends. And that's going on all through the LP!
There's
an "echo" button on cutting lathes that spreads the grooves apart before and
after a transition from a quiet passage to a loud one, to reduce intergroove
echo. But that uses up a lot of space. If you used that all the time, you'd
only be able to get seven minutes on a side.
What people don't realize is that on an LP, you're constantly listening to
a lot of pre- and post-echo, conveying an artificial depth that was never
heard by the microphones, while intermodulation distortion is generating
"notes" that nobody actually played. Then there's harmonic distortion
which can reach tens of percent, introducing harmonics that were never
produced by the original instruments. (I'm not saying it doesn't sound
great because it can.) Then to add insult to injury, the high frequency
response of an LP rolls off as you get farther in toward the center, not to
mention the increase in distortion.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
linuup:
I am sorry to say I am a smoker.
I use John Silver Extra Light Cigarette Tobacco. Choice Quality since 1947.
In my country this extra light blend has a Yellow Label.
Wouldnt surprise me if it has crossed The Atlantic Ocean, after being picked in Virginia state of America.
Possibly by some mexican illlegal immigrants or low paid black people
who have their origins, Roots in Africa and were brought by slavedrivers across big water.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I am also a tobacco smoker, i smoke on and off
when i have enough cash i buy all sorts of exotic
tobacco is great, only problem is not enough money
my favorite is cigars all sorts i ofcourse prefer highend ones
cheers
john
linuup:
I am sorry to say I am a smoker.
I use John Silver Extra Light Cigarette Tobacco. Choice Quality since 1947.
In my country this extra light blend has a Yellow Label.
Wouldnt surprise me if it has crossed The Atlantic Ocean, after being picked in Virginia state of America.
Possibly by some mexican illlegal immigrants or low paid black people
who have their origins, Roots in Africa and were brought by slavedrivers across big water.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I am also a tobacco smoker, i smoke on and off
when i have enough cash i buy all sorts of exotic
tobacco is great, only problem is not enough money
my favorite is cigars all sorts i ofcourse prefer highend ones
cheers
john
I'm sure he has. My experience is that there are many people in this industry who have devoted many years to what they do. This doesn't compel me to accept their conclusions.
My comment was about avoiding "concluding" that people who prefer vinyl do so because they prefer distortion to the real thing.
The way I see it is not that some people prefer accurate sound and others do not. This does not make any sense to me as a general rule. The way I see it is that individuals prefer different combinations of distortion. So those who prefer vinyl do so because it is a better facsimilie (compromise of errors) to them than CD is, and vice-versa. All this tells me is that vinyl does some things better than CD and vice-versa. The question is not "why don't these vinyl people wake up and accept what real sounds like" it is rather "what does vinyl do better than CD and why didn't they think about this when they defined the CD format".
There may even be other issues involved, like those discussed here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1000701#post1000701
Jan Didden
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1000701#post1000701
Jan Didden
Re: Pro Recording Engineer/speaker Designer On Lp Quality
This is the sort of insight that make lots of sense, much more so when qualified by an experienced and dedicated individual like Mr. Kreisler, with so many years actually cutting LP's.
I guess he had the means to further substantiate these assertions through actual measurements - distortion and IM in particular -, he had the equipment for cutting test tracks already at hand.
Can someone point to published results in this line?
Rodolfo
PB2 said:
This is the sort of insight that make lots of sense, much more so when qualified by an experienced and dedicated individual like Mr. Kreisler, with so many years actually cutting LP's.
I guess he had the means to further substantiate these assertions through actual measurements - distortion and IM in particular -, he had the equipment for cutting test tracks already at hand.
Can someone point to published results in this line?
Rodolfo
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.