Phil,
You're assuming that I have no experience with tone controls.
That assumption is incorrect.
I spent years with tone controls before realizing that it's a lost cause.
Mixing implies a PA, at which point you've lost the sound of the instrument itself; you're listening to the PA. The day that a PA system comes close to even a mid-fi system has yet to arrive. The fact that it was acoustic before it went into the microphones has been lost.
I once had a customer come in, wanting to buy a pair of "really good headphones." I showed him the best we had (fairly good, actually--some of the older Yamaha phones were quite decent). His response was that they had too much bass. I listened, and found that all was well. He insisted that they were boomy. One thing led to another, and he brought in the headphones he was using. I put them on, winced, and jerked them back off. I called over another fellow whose ears I knew were pretty good and got a kick out of watching his facial expression turn sour. The problem: Koss used to have headphones that actually had woofers and tweeters in them. This fellow had blown the woofers completely. Gone. Not even scraping voice coils. And he had gotten so accustomed to the sound that he was convinced that <i>that</i> was the way things were supposed to sound.
The punchline?
He was the man on the sound board at a concert hall in Charleston.
I am unimpressed by anyone who tells me they mix PA sound. Not once, ever, have I heard a PA mixed well. It's always some sort of glorified overdone highs and too much bass. Part of this is the fault of the halls, part is the fault of the equipment (mainly the speakers), and part of it is the fault of those who turn the knobs. Maybe you're the exception...but from what I've read, I honestly doubt it.
Grey
You're assuming that I have no experience with tone controls.
That assumption is incorrect.
I spent years with tone controls before realizing that it's a lost cause.
Mixing implies a PA, at which point you've lost the sound of the instrument itself; you're listening to the PA. The day that a PA system comes close to even a mid-fi system has yet to arrive. The fact that it was acoustic before it went into the microphones has been lost.
I once had a customer come in, wanting to buy a pair of "really good headphones." I showed him the best we had (fairly good, actually--some of the older Yamaha phones were quite decent). His response was that they had too much bass. I listened, and found that all was well. He insisted that they were boomy. One thing led to another, and he brought in the headphones he was using. I put them on, winced, and jerked them back off. I called over another fellow whose ears I knew were pretty good and got a kick out of watching his facial expression turn sour. The problem: Koss used to have headphones that actually had woofers and tweeters in them. This fellow had blown the woofers completely. Gone. Not even scraping voice coils. And he had gotten so accustomed to the sound that he was convinced that <i>that</i> was the way things were supposed to sound.
The punchline?
He was the man on the sound board at a concert hall in Charleston.
I am unimpressed by anyone who tells me they mix PA sound. Not once, ever, have I heard a PA mixed well. It's always some sort of glorified overdone highs and too much bass. Part of this is the fault of the halls, part is the fault of the equipment (mainly the speakers), and part of it is the fault of those who turn the knobs. Maybe you're the exception...but from what I've read, I honestly doubt it.
Grey
Hi Grey,
Aside from chamber quartets how much unamplified live music is publicly available? Now even opera and orchestral work are being reinforced (yuck).
I don't disagree with you about the state of live sound. The biggest problem is mostly the poor acoustics of the rooms followed by excessive stage volume. It is usually impossible to avoid being in the reverberant field for most of the audiance. And when the talent turns their Marshals on stage up to 11 you can kiss a balanced sound goodby. Most of the times when I'm mixing in clubs, I figure the best thing I can do is try to minimize the carnage and reinforce only what the audiance can't hear (vocals mostly). I especially enjoy working with acoustic acts (acoustic guitar and vocals), these can be really sweet with the right talent. I regularly work with a young couple out of Greenville, Mark and Alex Eshenbaugh, very talented and great hearted people.
Your story about the guy with the headphones actually supports my point about how untrustworthy our own perceptions can be. That guy was convince he was right wasn't he. We all have to watch out for thinking we have finally gotten it all figured out and reached enlightenment. If you never question yourself or or your perceptions you can miss what is really going on. That is true for me just as it's true for you.
Peace,
Phil
Aside from chamber quartets how much unamplified live music is publicly available? Now even opera and orchestral work are being reinforced (yuck).
I don't disagree with you about the state of live sound. The biggest problem is mostly the poor acoustics of the rooms followed by excessive stage volume. It is usually impossible to avoid being in the reverberant field for most of the audiance. And when the talent turns their Marshals on stage up to 11 you can kiss a balanced sound goodby. Most of the times when I'm mixing in clubs, I figure the best thing I can do is try to minimize the carnage and reinforce only what the audiance can't hear (vocals mostly). I especially enjoy working with acoustic acts (acoustic guitar and vocals), these can be really sweet with the right talent. I regularly work with a young couple out of Greenville, Mark and Alex Eshenbaugh, very talented and great hearted people.
Your story about the guy with the headphones actually supports my point about how untrustworthy our own perceptions can be. That guy was convince he was right wasn't he. We all have to watch out for thinking we have finally gotten it all figured out and reached enlightenment. If you never question yourself or or your perceptions you can miss what is really going on. That is true for me just as it's true for you.
Peace,
Phil
Phil,
Fortunately, the South Carolina Philharmonic has not (yet) elected to go with sound reinforcement. I'm hoping that they don't, as Nicholas Smith (the current conductor) has really whipped them into shape--something his predecessor utterly failed to do.
On reinforcing voices: There's a story that Led Zeppelin was playing a large venue when the power to the PA dropped. Stage power remained, however, and the amps played on. John Bonham, the drummer, needed no power, of course, being a one man generating station himself.
And yet...and yet...faintly over the music could still be heard Robert Plant's voice.
Now <i>that's</i> a strong set of vocal cords!
Most of the rest of us would end up like the bluebird in Shrek if we tried it. I know I would.
Grey
Fortunately, the South Carolina Philharmonic has not (yet) elected to go with sound reinforcement. I'm hoping that they don't, as Nicholas Smith (the current conductor) has really whipped them into shape--something his predecessor utterly failed to do.
On reinforcing voices: There's a story that Led Zeppelin was playing a large venue when the power to the PA dropped. Stage power remained, however, and the amps played on. John Bonham, the drummer, needed no power, of course, being a one man generating station himself.
And yet...and yet...faintly over the music could still be heard Robert Plant's voice.
Now <i>that's</i> a strong set of vocal cords!
Most of the rest of us would end up like the bluebird in Shrek if we tried it. I know I would.
Grey
Joseph Cohen said:(...)
So from my point of view we are already into quantum physics when we attempt to describe the forces at work in the behavior of signal transmission. This goes way beyond capacitance, inductance and resistance and into areas that are mostly beyond the capabilities of our most sophisticated measuring instruments.
No... capacitance, inductance and other electromagnetic related effects have their basis on quantum effects. We use the known laws of electromagnetisim (based on these effects) to create new laws for electronic models (inductors, capacitors) and then use these models to recreate and predict what will happen with a real life device. Quantum physics are a pain in the ***
but even them follow some known rules.Now, you model a cable; it has impedance (resistance+capacitance+inductance); and if you want it, other characteristics that can be taken into account (skin effect, f.ex.). So, it has an effect on the signal travelling through it. Audible? It depends. I have my reserves on interconects; not to the point i'll spend more on cables than on amps, but i can accept different interconnects can sound different. But a *MAINS* cable?!
Lisandro_P said:
No... capacitance, inductance and other electromagnetic related effects have their basis on quantum effects. We use the known laws of electromagnetisim (based on these effects) to create new laws for electronic models (inductors, capacitors) and then use these models to recreate and predict what will happen with a real life device. Quantum physics are a pain in the ***
Hey Lisandro_P,
Don't even go there. Have you noticed that when a hard core subjectivist gets backed into a corner they always come up with the same kind of lines about obscure effects that are beyond the capabilities of our measuring equipment. There is never any rational reason put forth for why the obsure thing they are natering about applies to the discussion at hand they just plop it out there and expect us to all go "wow, quantum physics, I'm impressed. You must really be smarter than me." I guess that works when neither person really knows anything about it.
Nothing personal Joseph, but what is your technical background? Have you ever studied quantum physics or did you just read those words somewhere? I confess, they didn't cover it much in my undergraduate program (3 hours max in one of my physics classes). I just happen to be working my way through Stephen Hawkings latest book "The Universe in a Nutshell" right now and frankly I find it pretty slow going, I understand him while I'm reading his words, but 10 minutes later it's "what was that again". Nice graphics, but l liked "A Brief History of Time" better.
The only electronic engineers I know of who pay any real attention to quantum physical effects are chip designers. It's getting really bad as the geometry's keep getting smaller, how one electron behaves is becoming important.
Please don't pretend to expertise you don't have, that is cheating in a setting like this (show me your diploma and I'll show you mine) and frankly pretty boring.
Phil
Hi Phil,
I never laid claim to expertise in this area and, I think, quite clearly, explained how I came to these concepts. Also, I don't in the least feel backed into a corner. I have a pair of the finest instruments ever devised for detecting subtle nuances in the realm of sound - my ears, which have evolved for millions of years. I trust what I hear.
Either differences exist between power cords or they don't. According to the prevailing sentiment at this discussion group they don't, and are simply the product of a deluded mind. Fine. For you they don't exist, and therefore any attempt at explaining them in any fashion will be futile as the apriori assumption is that such differences can't exist. For me the explanation is not as important as the real perceived and achievable improvements in performance that are possible through exploring this route. I will continue exploring, because I believe it will yield pleasure in the end. That's what this is all about for me: beautiful sound and the pleasure derived from it.
I have great respect for those among you who are able to design and build complicated amplifiers etc and who have more knowledge than I do.
We only go around on this ball for a short time. This is like the Christians and the Muslims fighting over who has the one true God.
May your system forever be free of hum and noise and may you live in the enjoyment that great sound brings.
Joe
I never laid claim to expertise in this area and, I think, quite clearly, explained how I came to these concepts. Also, I don't in the least feel backed into a corner. I have a pair of the finest instruments ever devised for detecting subtle nuances in the realm of sound - my ears, which have evolved for millions of years. I trust what I hear.
Either differences exist between power cords or they don't. According to the prevailing sentiment at this discussion group they don't, and are simply the product of a deluded mind. Fine. For you they don't exist, and therefore any attempt at explaining them in any fashion will be futile as the apriori assumption is that such differences can't exist. For me the explanation is not as important as the real perceived and achievable improvements in performance that are possible through exploring this route. I will continue exploring, because I believe it will yield pleasure in the end. That's what this is all about for me: beautiful sound and the pleasure derived from it.
I have great respect for those among you who are able to design and build complicated amplifiers etc and who have more knowledge than I do.
We only go around on this ball for a short time. This is like the Christians and the Muslims fighting over who has the one true God.
May your system forever be free of hum and noise and may you live in the enjoyment that great sound brings.
Joe
Joseph Cohen said:
Look, i don't mean to argue or hold a position blindly... it's a simple matter: i don't know any evidence (or heard one for that matter) than a few meters of mains cable can affect the sound of an hifi rig. I can't even IMAGINE any. If there's any, by all means, i'd love to know about it... in the meanwhile, you can be able to understand why most of us gets pissed off when we hear about people paying outrageous prices for a "premium" mains cable and this sort of stuff.
But, in the end, audio it's not rocket science either. If it makes you happy, and you can afford it, by all means, enjoy it! That's what music reproduction's all about.
Joseph et al.,
Did you imagine that your question would stimulate so much discussion as well as interest (over 800 views thus far)? I would not have thought so. But, like many, have followed the discussion with interest. For me it was an unfamiliar subject and consequently I would read each post with an uncluttered mind trying to discover what truth there may be.
Perhaps I will reveal my ignorance, but I am puzzled why the benefits you suggest the wire provides cannot to some extent be measured. I believe it was said that RF interference as well as perhaps other line impurities would be reduced with this wire. Now, I would have thought that RFI would be measurable.
Granted, the bottom line is how it sounds. This discussion reminds me of an article I read awhile ago concerning the debate in the early 70's over whether there was a difference in sound produced by solid state amplification versus vacuum tubes. Advocates for solid stated (certainly every business which had any interest in it) maintained that there were no negative differences - in fact solid stated was better. But there were those, particularly within the music industry who believed there was an audible difference.
Finally, some technical people (maybe they were engineers) decided to put it to the test. They applied every test they could conceive of which might prove revealing. To make a long story short, in the end they discovered that there was a difference in the way a tube and SC reproduced or processed certain harmonics, and that certain combinations of harmoics were found to be more pleasing to the human ear( at least to some ears that were sensitive to the difference).
As I have only recently revived my interest in sound by deciding to rehabilitate my old tube amp, I have been amazed by the variety of components for tube amps (and other electronics), the great difference in prices, and the claims being made. Every part that goes into the amp from the tube to the hook-up wire can be cheap or dear. And being the cynical consumer I ask myself would I be able to tell the difference, or is there in fact any measurable difference. It would be nice if the audio electroics industry was scrutinized a little more scietifically as is done for example by the Consumer Union and to some extent in the computer world. Reviews of equipment are done but it doesn't seem all that scientific to me. And if it sounds good is it because of the tubes or the design, the output transformer or the capacitors or the hook-up wire. And then there's the equally controversial speakers which play no small part in what we hear.
I'm not saying that there are not differences between parts and components, but frequently the basis is someone's opinion (which I don't have a problem with at all) or is it myth or hype put out by those who have an interest. Why couldn't someone just take a basic simple amp and set it up so every part could be changed and exchange parts in some scietific order to verify even if only by listening the incremental differences. For example output tube "A" is compared with tube "B". Some number of people (experienced listeners) rate their listening experience using some established criteria. Do this with each component.
In conclusion, while the scepticism of Phil and others is probably justified (particularly in view of apparent unscrupulous pricing practices), the wisdom of keeping an open mind as expressed by Grey, it seems to me, should be maintained. Yet, again I wonder why the veracity of the claims cannot be subjected to verification. Perhaps those with greater understanding of these matters can answer this question.
Norman
P.S. If my ramblings are total nonsense I apologize in advance.
Did you imagine that your question would stimulate so much discussion as well as interest (over 800 views thus far)? I would not have thought so. But, like many, have followed the discussion with interest. For me it was an unfamiliar subject and consequently I would read each post with an uncluttered mind trying to discover what truth there may be.
Perhaps I will reveal my ignorance, but I am puzzled why the benefits you suggest the wire provides cannot to some extent be measured. I believe it was said that RF interference as well as perhaps other line impurities would be reduced with this wire. Now, I would have thought that RFI would be measurable.
Granted, the bottom line is how it sounds. This discussion reminds me of an article I read awhile ago concerning the debate in the early 70's over whether there was a difference in sound produced by solid state amplification versus vacuum tubes. Advocates for solid stated (certainly every business which had any interest in it) maintained that there were no negative differences - in fact solid stated was better. But there were those, particularly within the music industry who believed there was an audible difference.
Finally, some technical people (maybe they were engineers) decided to put it to the test. They applied every test they could conceive of which might prove revealing. To make a long story short, in the end they discovered that there was a difference in the way a tube and SC reproduced or processed certain harmonics, and that certain combinations of harmoics were found to be more pleasing to the human ear( at least to some ears that were sensitive to the difference).
As I have only recently revived my interest in sound by deciding to rehabilitate my old tube amp, I have been amazed by the variety of components for tube amps (and other electronics), the great difference in prices, and the claims being made. Every part that goes into the amp from the tube to the hook-up wire can be cheap or dear. And being the cynical consumer I ask myself would I be able to tell the difference, or is there in fact any measurable difference. It would be nice if the audio electroics industry was scrutinized a little more scietifically as is done for example by the Consumer Union and to some extent in the computer world. Reviews of equipment are done but it doesn't seem all that scientific to me. And if it sounds good is it because of the tubes or the design, the output transformer or the capacitors or the hook-up wire. And then there's the equally controversial speakers which play no small part in what we hear.
I'm not saying that there are not differences between parts and components, but frequently the basis is someone's opinion (which I don't have a problem with at all) or is it myth or hype put out by those who have an interest. Why couldn't someone just take a basic simple amp and set it up so every part could be changed and exchange parts in some scietific order to verify even if only by listening the incremental differences. For example output tube "A" is compared with tube "B". Some number of people (experienced listeners) rate their listening experience using some established criteria. Do this with each component.
In conclusion, while the scepticism of Phil and others is probably justified (particularly in view of apparent unscrupulous pricing practices), the wisdom of keeping an open mind as expressed by Grey, it seems to me, should be maintained. Yet, again I wonder why the veracity of the claims cannot be subjected to verification. Perhaps those with greater understanding of these matters can answer this question.
Norman
P.S. If my ramblings are total nonsense I apologize in advance.
norman said:
Exactly... if there's a diference, prove it to me and i'll be more than glad to change my mind. Show me some graphs, measurements, a .wav with an A/B test, or whatever, that prove that a mains cable can change the sound of an amp. It's not like we're talking about output devices either, this is about the 2 or 3 meters of cable that connect the equipment to the mains.
I like the approach Rod Elliot uses with this kind of issues... he posts his thoughts and says "we'll, if i'm wrong, prove me so and i'll amend my sayings". We all know there's more to audio than measurements (THD is a good example), but cables are well understood things...
honestly, why on earth are we remotely worried about 2-3m/ft of mains power cord when there is usually several km/miles of wire back to the substation and then most likely 100's of km/miles of wire from the substation back to the generator.... lets face it, the damage has already been done before the power enters your house... only thing a good power cord might do is stop the mains ac interfering with near by low level signal cables.... if the power supply can handle the big variances in power regulation it can certainly handle any amount of RFI or EMI that the cord might pick up in that shourt run.....
Well, haldor mentioned the current pulses running around inside the power supply. Similarly, the ratio of peak to average currents in the transformer -- and presumably therefore in the power cord as well -- is quite high, I believe. Any idea what this peak current would be?
So then I wonder what the resistance between the wall wiring and the transformer primary is. That would include four contacts in total I think. Surely just replacing an 18ga wire with 12 or 14ga, and using high-pressure (low-resistance) contacts would reduce this. The effect of this would be measurable, wouldn't it?
JohnR
So then I wonder what the resistance between the wall wiring and the transformer primary is. That would include four contacts in total I think. Surely just replacing an 18ga wire with 12 or 14ga, and using high-pressure (low-resistance) contacts would reduce this. The effect of this would be measurable, wouldn't it?
JohnR
Greetings
This discussion regarding power cords is a babe in the woods. If you want to see real action try Google > groups > power cords.
Curious, I dialled up power cords in Google > groups and found 86 pages . 500 entries on each of the first 10 pages thats 5000 postings followed by another 76 pages filled with posts from concerned users and can you believe adverts of one type or another for POWER CORDS. Somewhere between 7000 and 10,000 postings. So far.
You can buy REGULAR HIGH GRADE, SUPER HIGH GRADE, HOSPITAL GRADE, MILITARY GRADE but as one concerned poster put it, watch those, they are reputed to contain DIOXIN and PCB in unhealhy quantities. Whatever you do dont miss THE BEST SOUNDING POWER CORD ON THE PLANET at a modest $850. Includes shipping.
Prices for the lower grade power cords started at $250, $390, $450 (packaged in rosewood case). Superior quality power cords starting at $1200 moving on up to only two grand. Two thousand dollars for a power cord. Sounds very reasonable. The one that offered REVOLUTIONARY NEW TECHNOLOGY caught my attention. Could be a blue power cord with stripes or spots. Could have a nice rollup mechanism with a carbon fibre handle. Now that would be useful. Specially if you go camping or something like that. Personally I liked the power cord with the little digital meters on it. Spaced every 2 inches continually checking for your peace of mind for RF, IF, Stray capacity Sunset, esp, diptheria and having a subtle but unmistakable fragrance. Definitely a technology too good to miss.
Not wishing to appear closed minded to exciting and revolutionary and innovative new technologies I have looked at this thread a couple of times. On both occasions after exhaustive testing and invoking quantum theory the same thought pattern appeared almost magically.
Absolute total load of crap.
This discussion regarding power cords is a babe in the woods. If you want to see real action try Google > groups > power cords.
Curious, I dialled up power cords in Google > groups and found 86 pages . 500 entries on each of the first 10 pages thats 5000 postings followed by another 76 pages filled with posts from concerned users and can you believe adverts of one type or another for POWER CORDS. Somewhere between 7000 and 10,000 postings. So far.
You can buy REGULAR HIGH GRADE, SUPER HIGH GRADE, HOSPITAL GRADE, MILITARY GRADE but as one concerned poster put it, watch those, they are reputed to contain DIOXIN and PCB in unhealhy quantities. Whatever you do dont miss THE BEST SOUNDING POWER CORD ON THE PLANET at a modest $850. Includes shipping.
Prices for the lower grade power cords started at $250, $390, $450 (packaged in rosewood case). Superior quality power cords starting at $1200 moving on up to only two grand. Two thousand dollars for a power cord. Sounds very reasonable. The one that offered REVOLUTIONARY NEW TECHNOLOGY caught my attention. Could be a blue power cord with stripes or spots. Could have a nice rollup mechanism with a carbon fibre handle. Now that would be useful. Specially if you go camping or something like that. Personally I liked the power cord with the little digital meters on it. Spaced every 2 inches continually checking for your peace of mind for RF, IF, Stray capacity Sunset, esp, diptheria and having a subtle but unmistakable fragrance. Definitely a technology too good to miss.
Not wishing to appear closed minded to exciting and revolutionary and innovative new technologies I have looked at this thread a couple of times. On both occasions after exhaustive testing and invoking quantum theory the same thought pattern appeared almost magically.
Absolute total load of crap.
If I'm gullible enough to spend hundreds of dollars on an AC power cord, I would really want it to sound better. I would convince myself of it. I would tell my friends of the improved soundstage and clarity. I would write glowing reviews of the resurgence of musicality in my system. As the power cord burns in for a few months, the highs get more transparent and lively, the middles more present and open and the bass more courageous.
Except maybe someday the little boy will point out that the Emperor is wearing no clothes.
Except maybe someday the little boy will point out that the Emperor is wearing no clothes.
(Visualize Grey shaking his head, exasperated...)
Is the issue the price charged, or is it whether cables actually make a difference?
Personally, I happen to feel that the price they charge for cars is rather absurd, but getting wound up about the price tag is silly. The price tag says what it says. You either choose to pay it or you don't. Me? I choose not to buy the giga-buck cables. I'd rather make them than pay what they ask for cables these days (for that matter you could buy a car for what they charge for some of these things). But that doesn't mean that I confuse the price with the question of whether they're audible.
Having once believed as Phil and Lisandro do now, I can well understand their point of view. However, I learned the hard way that there are things that can be heard, but that don't have convenient explanations yet.
I don't invoke magic. Never have. That's stupid. But it's also rather blind to assume that at any given point in time that we know all that there is to know about any given topic. Was there electricity prior to knowledge of electrons? There certainly was. Lightning does not require humans to formulate concepts of static charge and ionization of molecules for it to have independent existence. There are numerous examples in medicine, also. Aspirin is one of of my favorites. Indians (i.e. Native Americans in this instance) used the bark of the willow tree to relieve headaches for centuries before the advent of modern medicine. They had no knowledge of receptor sites in the brain--they used it because it worked. Imagine the following dialog:
White Feather is holding his head, and moaning,"If only I could get rid of this headache. It's killing me!"
Running Bear, offering him willow bark extract, says,"Try this. It might help. Works for me."
White Feather replies,"Huh! Show me proof. You don't have a theory to explain how that works. I'm not going to take any medicine that doesn't have a theory to explain how it works."
Running Bear says,"It won't hurt to try it."
White Feather scowls at him. "Ten Hills tried some of that stuff. Didn't work for him."
Running Bear shrugs. "Maybe so. It hasn't stopped every single headache I've had, either, but it works more often that not."
White Feather grunts contemptuously and says,"See? It doesn't work! You talked yourself out of it, or it went away by itself, or your squaw gave you a back rub and the tension that caused the headache went away."
Running Bear shrugs again. "I dunno. Maybe we just need to find out what the active ingredient is. Purify it. Concentrate it. It could be that if we knew enough about how this works, we could make it--"
White Feather loses patience and yells at him,"Enough! I've had enough of your air-headed twaddle! Unless you can come up with a theory that proves that that junk works, leave me in peace!"
It was only in the last couple of decades that researchers have finally begun to understand why aspirin works. And, no, it doesn't work every time. (Frankly, aspirin rarely works for me. I don't know why that might be. I'm not saying that it doesn't work for other people, though.) But it's rather foolish to say that there's nothing there simply because you can't imagine a mechanism for it. That's not how science works. Observations first, then explain what you found--not the other way around. As I've noted previously, people who actually listen have been proven right time after time after time. Don't bet against the human ear. If you happen not to agree, the wise thing to do is simply sit the issue out. Better that than have to retract what you said at a later date. Heed my words: This is the voice of experience speaking. Is was quite humiliating to have to live down some of the things I said before I started actually listening.
Lisandro says people (by implication, including himself) get 'pissed off' when they hear about folks spending a lot of money on cables. The problem is that what he says is literally true. People get angry about things like this. Why? Why on earth do people get angry about an action that someone else takes that has no effect on Lisandro, or Phil, or anyone else but themselves?
It's because of what Phil said earlier in response to me dragging poor, long-suffering Galileo into this. They're being told that their world-view isn't the center of the universe. They find that threatening, in the same sense that people in the sixties felt threatened by the advent of rock 'n roll, or that religious people feel threatened by the concept of evolution. It doesn't really effect them personally so much as it challenges their view of how the world is. I used to feel the way Lisandro and Phil do. But exposure to enough live, unamplified music, and to systems that were better than mine convinced me to change my mind.
But is all this hostility and contempt and disdain really the appropriate response?
Is it <i>really?</i>
Grey
Is the issue the price charged, or is it whether cables actually make a difference?
Personally, I happen to feel that the price they charge for cars is rather absurd, but getting wound up about the price tag is silly. The price tag says what it says. You either choose to pay it or you don't. Me? I choose not to buy the giga-buck cables. I'd rather make them than pay what they ask for cables these days (for that matter you could buy a car for what they charge for some of these things). But that doesn't mean that I confuse the price with the question of whether they're audible.
Having once believed as Phil and Lisandro do now, I can well understand their point of view. However, I learned the hard way that there are things that can be heard, but that don't have convenient explanations yet.
I don't invoke magic. Never have. That's stupid. But it's also rather blind to assume that at any given point in time that we know all that there is to know about any given topic. Was there electricity prior to knowledge of electrons? There certainly was. Lightning does not require humans to formulate concepts of static charge and ionization of molecules for it to have independent existence. There are numerous examples in medicine, also. Aspirin is one of of my favorites. Indians (i.e. Native Americans in this instance) used the bark of the willow tree to relieve headaches for centuries before the advent of modern medicine. They had no knowledge of receptor sites in the brain--they used it because it worked. Imagine the following dialog:
White Feather is holding his head, and moaning,"If only I could get rid of this headache. It's killing me!"
Running Bear, offering him willow bark extract, says,"Try this. It might help. Works for me."
White Feather replies,"Huh! Show me proof. You don't have a theory to explain how that works. I'm not going to take any medicine that doesn't have a theory to explain how it works."
Running Bear says,"It won't hurt to try it."
White Feather scowls at him. "Ten Hills tried some of that stuff. Didn't work for him."
Running Bear shrugs. "Maybe so. It hasn't stopped every single headache I've had, either, but it works more often that not."
White Feather grunts contemptuously and says,"See? It doesn't work! You talked yourself out of it, or it went away by itself, or your squaw gave you a back rub and the tension that caused the headache went away."
Running Bear shrugs again. "I dunno. Maybe we just need to find out what the active ingredient is. Purify it. Concentrate it. It could be that if we knew enough about how this works, we could make it--"
White Feather loses patience and yells at him,"Enough! I've had enough of your air-headed twaddle! Unless you can come up with a theory that proves that that junk works, leave me in peace!"
It was only in the last couple of decades that researchers have finally begun to understand why aspirin works. And, no, it doesn't work every time. (Frankly, aspirin rarely works for me. I don't know why that might be. I'm not saying that it doesn't work for other people, though.) But it's rather foolish to say that there's nothing there simply because you can't imagine a mechanism for it. That's not how science works. Observations first, then explain what you found--not the other way around. As I've noted previously, people who actually listen have been proven right time after time after time. Don't bet against the human ear. If you happen not to agree, the wise thing to do is simply sit the issue out. Better that than have to retract what you said at a later date. Heed my words: This is the voice of experience speaking. Is was quite humiliating to have to live down some of the things I said before I started actually listening.
Lisandro says people (by implication, including himself) get 'pissed off' when they hear about folks spending a lot of money on cables. The problem is that what he says is literally true. People get angry about things like this. Why? Why on earth do people get angry about an action that someone else takes that has no effect on Lisandro, or Phil, or anyone else but themselves?
It's because of what Phil said earlier in response to me dragging poor, long-suffering Galileo into this. They're being told that their world-view isn't the center of the universe. They find that threatening, in the same sense that people in the sixties felt threatened by the advent of rock 'n roll, or that religious people feel threatened by the concept of evolution. It doesn't really effect them personally so much as it challenges their view of how the world is. I used to feel the way Lisandro and Phil do. But exposure to enough live, unamplified music, and to systems that were better than mine convinced me to change my mind.
But is all this hostility and contempt and disdain really the appropriate response?
Is it <i>really?</i>
Grey
This is great
Well, I just had to get in on this, but I'm in the middle of the road here. On one hand, how can 2m of wire have an effect on our sound? On the other, I have talked to repair techs who have laughed at the price of these cables and at the same time tell me they actually work. They have actually heard the difference but will be damned if they would pay for it. We do get a lot of harmonic trash over our incoming line. Its not as though the power companies can't stop it, they have no reason to. As for myself, I use a 3kw 240 to 120 isolation transformer to power my stereo. I send a 240 volt line to my tranny and get two lines of 120 out. It has a seperate neutral bond from the house and runs back on a seperate ground. It isolates my equipment from all that harmonic trash as well as fluorescent lighting loads, and especially computers (the worst when it comes to harmonics). Can I hear a difference, you bet. And I don't have to prove it to anybody. If anyone wants proof, go get your own proof. All of our Ideas and opinions are subjective. If it works for me I'm gonna do it. If anyone wants to sit down and read about ac fundamentals the books are out there. If a 120v circuit is measured with 10 amps does it consume 1200 watts of power? Maybe not, there may be inductive reactance or capacitive reactance present in the circuit. The current may be out of phase with the voltage. If that is the case then the circuit does not consume 1200 watts, but less. ELI the ICE man. these fundamentals are out there for everyone, but it all boils down to what the individual believes. What we believe is right for us, not someone else, and we as an individual are entitled to that, free from any negative comments from anyone. Especially here, don't you think?
Well, I just had to get in on this, but I'm in the middle of the road here. On one hand, how can 2m of wire have an effect on our sound? On the other, I have talked to repair techs who have laughed at the price of these cables and at the same time tell me they actually work. They have actually heard the difference but will be damned if they would pay for it. We do get a lot of harmonic trash over our incoming line. Its not as though the power companies can't stop it, they have no reason to. As for myself, I use a 3kw 240 to 120 isolation transformer to power my stereo. I send a 240 volt line to my tranny and get two lines of 120 out. It has a seperate neutral bond from the house and runs back on a seperate ground. It isolates my equipment from all that harmonic trash as well as fluorescent lighting loads, and especially computers (the worst when it comes to harmonics). Can I hear a difference, you bet. And I don't have to prove it to anybody. If anyone wants proof, go get your own proof. All of our Ideas and opinions are subjective. If it works for me I'm gonna do it. If anyone wants to sit down and read about ac fundamentals the books are out there. If a 120v circuit is measured with 10 amps does it consume 1200 watts of power? Maybe not, there may be inductive reactance or capacitive reactance present in the circuit. The current may be out of phase with the voltage. If that is the case then the circuit does not consume 1200 watts, but less. ELI the ICE man. these fundamentals are out there for everyone, but it all boils down to what the individual believes. What we believe is right for us, not someone else, and we as an individual are entitled to that, free from any negative comments from anyone. Especially here, don't you think?
Skippy,
A well-designed filter and isolation system for your stereo is totally different than just a power cord. There are sound electrical principles in what you've described. I'd love to have such a system and may put one together some day. The tirades here are really directed at the snake oil stuff that we see all over the place.
Grey (and others),
My point was simply that I believe the psychological effects far outweigh the actual sonic benefits of some (most?) of this stuff. And yes, people can buy it if they want, bully for them. Me, I couldn't live with myself if I sold $2000 power cords. As Captain Stubing said, they're for people with more dollars than sense.
To answer Grey's question, it's the price charged that annoys me the most. Their pricing strategies are based on psychology, not engineering or economics.
A well-designed filter and isolation system for your stereo is totally different than just a power cord. There are sound electrical principles in what you've described. I'd love to have such a system and may put one together some day. The tirades here are really directed at the snake oil stuff that we see all over the place.
Grey (and others),
My point was simply that I believe the psychological effects far outweigh the actual sonic benefits of some (most?) of this stuff. And yes, people can buy it if they want, bully for them. Me, I couldn't live with myself if I sold $2000 power cords. As Captain Stubing said, they're for people with more dollars than sense.
To answer Grey's question, it's the price charged that annoys me the most. Their pricing strategies are based on psychology, not engineering or economics.
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