btw. i like synthetic clicks ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T65NpyfPkQ
in this case with lots of synthetic reverb, that's granted.
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Really? 25 m2 is probably too small if you want to maintain an equidistant listening triangle.
Hi,
Something wrong here:
Try the famous pillow trick to block the direct sound
By the way, what genre of music did you try with this configuration. Try recordings recorded at the natural ambiance, in my experience only these work well with this approach of sound projecting. Studio recordings never worked for me for this type of speakers.
- Elias
Something wrong here:
Try the famous pillow trick to block the direct sound
By the way, what genre of music did you try with this configuration. Try recordings recorded at the natural ambiance, in my experience only these work well with this approach of sound projecting. Studio recordings never worked for me for this type of speakers.
- Elias
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It looks rather poor and crude corner integration.
Yes, that's almost the most one can get into the corner.
Already tried it. Yes, it raises the scene a bit, but definition gets even worse.Try the famous pillow trick to block the direct sound
Many recordings recorded at the natural ambiance lack imaging details, which are supplied by ventriloquism (visual clues) when attending the real event. I hate to keep my eyes shut when listening to an orchestra in real life.
If this approach of sound projecting can't deliver the details, which supporting mikes add to the recording, it is useless for me.
@graaf: My room is not acoustically treated - just carpet on the floor. Front wall behind speakers is glass - completely.
If I move farther away from the speakers, definition becomes worse, not better.
Rudolf
But why do you think of this as a disadvantage:
Haven't you been reading Toole, and all the benefits of lateral reflections lol
- Elias
Of course this gets us back to the essence of "what pattern" and also "why aren't omni speakers more popular". As you decrease the direct to reflected ratio you can make the speakers disappear and the sound to come from all over but you will lose any image precision. Some of us like solo instruments to come from a point in space rather than from all over.
I interpret Toole as advocating plenty of later lateral reflections, but not uncontrolled omni radiation. The speakers that do best in his listening tests are normal pattern, rising directivity 2 and 3 ways systems, aimed at the listening area.
I guess he hasn't discovered pillows in front of the tweeter yet?
David
Next thing to try could be hanging those flooders under the
ceiling edges to radiate into the (usually) more damped
and diffuse area on the ground ...
Tonal balance deviation due to "above" directional band
(pinna filter function) could be compensated partially
using a notch tunable in Q around 7Khz.
___________
OK, all this is going into solving a "seems i need to have speakers, but i
do not want them to be present (visually) in the room" kind of problem.
Maybe some of those arrangements are interesting for public places
like bars, restaurants etc. ...
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From http://www.pispeakers.com/Pi_Speakers_Info.pdf
A stereo pair of constant-directivity cornerhorns sit in adjacent corners, ideally situated
where the forward axes cross in front of the listeners, as shown earlier in this document.
They have the unique distinction of generating constant directivity through the whole
audio band, all the way down through the midrange and into the bass. There is no other
configuration that can do this.
The secret to their success is the fact that they use the walls as a large waveguide. The
thing that most sound systems have to work around becomes the strength of the
constant directivity cornerhorn. The midhorn is able to be snuggled back into the
corner where the walls act as extensions to its flare. And the woofer uses the walls as
its directional device in toto.
This use of the corner as a large waveguide is excellent. Of course, not every room is
suitable for this configuration but where possible, it is of great potential benefit.
Instead of fighting to reduce lateral reflections from adjacent walls, constant directory
cornerhorns make them become an integral part of the waveguide, one that is large
enough to be useful down to low frequencies. It really is a natural solution, one that has
no equal where room coverage, imaging and overall sound quality are concerned.
...
One method that is very effective at smoothing the higher frequency modes, as is
employed in π Cornerhorns, is to overlap a vertically stacked midrange and woofer in
this region. Of course, this requires a relatively low woofer-to midrange crossover
point, with woofer and midrange blended together, sharing the band up to 300Hz or so.
Above that point, it is desirable for the loudspeaker to act as a point source.
A stereo pair of constant-directivity cornerhorns sit in adjacent corners, ideally situated
where the forward axes cross in front of the listeners, as shown earlier in this document.
They have the unique distinction of generating constant directivity through the whole
audio band, all the way down through the midrange and into the bass. There is no other
configuration that can do this.
The secret to their success is the fact that they use the walls as a large waveguide. The
thing that most sound systems have to work around becomes the strength of the
constant directivity cornerhorn. The midhorn is able to be snuggled back into the
corner where the walls act as extensions to its flare. And the woofer uses the walls as
its directional device in toto.
This use of the corner as a large waveguide is excellent. Of course, not every room is
suitable for this configuration but where possible, it is of great potential benefit.
Instead of fighting to reduce lateral reflections from adjacent walls, constant directory
cornerhorns make them become an integral part of the waveguide, one that is large
enough to be useful down to low frequencies. It really is a natural solution, one that has
no equal where room coverage, imaging and overall sound quality are concerned.
...
One method that is very effective at smoothing the higher frequency modes, as is
employed in π Cornerhorns, is to overlap a vertically stacked midrange and woofer in
this region. Of course, this requires a relatively low woofer-to midrange crossover
point, with woofer and midrange blended together, sharing the band up to 300Hz or so.
Above that point, it is desirable for the loudspeaker to act as a point source.
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Member
Joined 2009
I've been looking into corner speakers. It seems that low frequencies where the wavelength is large enough work out well but higher frequencies are prone to smearing and cancellations. A good solution would be to limit the directivity in the problem frequencies. The Pi corner speakers look interesting.
The wider the dispersion of a speaker, the more sound energy it puts into the room for a given direct sound level. Now what if you had a relatively large room and you could place the speakers very far from the sidewalls and your seat would be far from any walls and relatively close to the speakers. The direct sound would still be relatively strong, but there will also be a maximum of late reflections. Maybe omni's aren't necessarily bad after all!
Another point I'd like to make is that contrary to what seems to be your view on the matter, I do think the far off-axis response is important. Early reflections contribute significantly to the perception of loudness and to timbre. The close wall reflection is usually the first and strongest. Typically this reflection takes place at about 60 degrees off-axis for the speaker. The first reflection will lead to comb-filtering, but the result will look the least ugly if the spectrum of both the direct sound and the reflection are more or less flat. If the reflected spectrum is not smooth to begin with, the result can never be satisfactory.
Sure, I've heard a couple of my designs placed in lecture halls and small concert halls and the sound was great. If your listening room is large enough, then maybe the dispersion pattern becomes immaterial. The question at hand is what works best in a typical domestic situation. What we know is that early reflections lead to colorations and that typical room dimensions lead to early reflections.
I don't agree. A strongly comb filtered response is ugly, period. Having the reflected response be a duplicate of the direct response doesn't make it any less ugly. If you filter the summed response with a critical band approach you won't find the combination any flatter. Read Lipshitz and Vanderkooy who found that holes in the power response were innocuos. Read Bech who found that a reflection from an angle where the 2 way system was badly sucked out, was less audible (had a higher threshold of detection).
The notion that "reflections are okay if they are flat" is totally unfounded.
David S.
... unless one is listening in semianechoic environment and reflections are very low in level.
Which is not to be found in living rooms usually.
I would describe it like this: Regardless what angle, if there is significant radiation above schroeder
frequency it should be as "smooth" as possible, not only within the "likely listening windows".
But -oops- this is rather hard to achieve. This is "CD" criterion, isn't it ?
CD, if taken literally, also includes (true) omnis.
I think CD is a requirement of own quality, regardless of preferred or needed (horizontal, vertical) directivity.
What Tom Danley said to be a "simple pattern": CD (or similar to CD behaviour) itself helps minimizing
"speaker cues" when moving in a room and e.g. changing listening distance to the speakers.
If you place a speaker on a meadow and walk around it at closer or larger distance and it sounds consistent,
not changing tonal balance abruptly, it is likely that this speaker will perform well in a room also.
Of course the polar pattern will decide for which rooms, listening distances and kinds of placement
it will be most suitable.
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Do you know of any experiments, which compared "flat" reflections to "ugly" reflections in a "musical" context? No noise or clicks please
.I can't pin it to any single publication, but in the context of Auditory Scene Analysis it looks as if the brain does like to add repetitions of an auditory event into the original - in order to make it easier/earlier/better understandable. I have to look deeper into the work of Al Bregman and others to find the revelant research.
Markus recently linked two papers that imho show how more complex signals can lead to different results when compared to older simpler experiments. Same might apply to more complex experimental environments.
Some new experiments on the precedence effect
Acoustic Communication: The precedence effect
Did I see it correctly in the later picture that you placed them against the front wall? That way I didn't get a good result either, sound and height was a mess.
You should place them against the side (long) walls with some distance to the front wall. In my case with the Q15s placing them upwards the phantom center became unfortunately wide. Moving them closer together distancing them from the side walls restored the center.
Tilting the speaker more towards me improved soundstage a bit further so to me the Q15s lack too much to be used as real flooders, but it did show the potential of the flooder arrangement.
As far as I can remember reading on the subject I thought the ear-brain combination could distinguish direct and reflected sounds (with enough delay of course) even if a microphone sees it as combfiltering.
And to make it easier the reflection has to resemble the original as much as possible.
And to make it easier the reflection has to resemble the original as much as possible.
LOL Rudolf, maybe the system sensed that you were not sincere, so it ceased to work
but perhaps bad attitude leads to unconsciously doing something wrong?
well, at least the sound was not (at least entirely) coming from the floor (Markus' case) though somewhat close neither it was all over (Dave's case), there was at least some sharpness of the images:
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