Rumble = uncontrolled LF content which is not part of the wanted audio signal.
Punch = controlled LF content which is part of the wanted audio signal.
Sometimes ‘rumbles’ is used as the side effects of resonances in room acoustics or in other words ‘shaking of the building’ for instance.
I guess most people that are classified here as: 'have you never felt deep base' only want to hear and experience music instead of the side effects what sound physically can do to its environment. Somehow I think most people just want to hear the music while 'shaking' lovers or movie FX lovers also want to see/experience what sound physically can do. If that is the goal built it, but you can’t suggest that people who don’t want it, don’t have an idea of what they are missing. That would be the same as stating, people who love these physical rumbles have no idea of real music since they are only interested in physical rumble…
To compare 'shaking buildings' with real classical concerts is at least a little strange in my eyes. I have never seen any building 'shaking' during any classical concert because the levels of LF content generated by the orchestra are in ratio with the space they are produced in. Classical concert halls are generally large and heavily constructed (with a stable and controlled decay of the sound). The idea of big diameter loudspeakers to produce significant LF content in small acoustic spaces of relative light construction is far from real anyway. Even my 'tiny' sennheiser HD650 headphones does the job better although my body can't experience the LF content. But I also never experienced stomach slamming percussive sounds during a classical concert either, well at least not how they sound from a 15 inch driver . Again it is because of the realtion between LF content and acoustic space. When we experience a classical concert we hear the LF content as 'full' because the sound waves al fit within the concert hall. As they don't fit in a normal living room, even the help from 15" drivers is anything but the real thing.
For recorded electronic music, especially D&B, this so called 'important' LF content is always above 26Hz. The uncontrolled LF content, which I prefer to call rumble, is cut away by the mastering engineer. However, many of today’s (home)productions are not edited by any professional mastering engineer and can have these uncontrolled 'infra sub' frequencies in them. The (home) recording engineer almost never realises that this 'rumble' takes away energy from frequencies that are important to the music since most of them don’t have access to controlled acoustical environments like pro studio’s or reference sound systems that are able to produce these frequencies at significant PA levels. In the best case they are DJ’s themselves and still not realising the PA system 'suffers' from their 'unwanted' LF content. But luckily for them that wont be amplified anyway since most PA rigs use low-cut filters anyway...
Punch = controlled LF content which is part of the wanted audio signal.
Sometimes ‘rumbles’ is used as the side effects of resonances in room acoustics or in other words ‘shaking of the building’ for instance.
I guess most people that are classified here as: 'have you never felt deep base' only want to hear and experience music instead of the side effects what sound physically can do to its environment. Somehow I think most people just want to hear the music while 'shaking' lovers or movie FX lovers also want to see/experience what sound physically can do. If that is the goal built it, but you can’t suggest that people who don’t want it, don’t have an idea of what they are missing. That would be the same as stating, people who love these physical rumbles have no idea of real music since they are only interested in physical rumble…
To compare 'shaking buildings' with real classical concerts is at least a little strange in my eyes. I have never seen any building 'shaking' during any classical concert because the levels of LF content generated by the orchestra are in ratio with the space they are produced in. Classical concert halls are generally large and heavily constructed (with a stable and controlled decay of the sound). The idea of big diameter loudspeakers to produce significant LF content in small acoustic spaces of relative light construction is far from real anyway. Even my 'tiny' sennheiser HD650 headphones does the job better although my body can't experience the LF content. But I also never experienced stomach slamming percussive sounds during a classical concert either, well at least not how they sound from a 15 inch driver . Again it is because of the realtion between LF content and acoustic space. When we experience a classical concert we hear the LF content as 'full' because the sound waves al fit within the concert hall. As they don't fit in a normal living room, even the help from 15" drivers is anything but the real thing.
For recorded electronic music, especially D&B, this so called 'important' LF content is always above 26Hz. The uncontrolled LF content, which I prefer to call rumble, is cut away by the mastering engineer. However, many of today’s (home)productions are not edited by any professional mastering engineer and can have these uncontrolled 'infra sub' frequencies in them. The (home) recording engineer almost never realises that this 'rumble' takes away energy from frequencies that are important to the music since most of them don’t have access to controlled acoustical environments like pro studio’s or reference sound systems that are able to produce these frequencies at significant PA levels. In the best case they are DJ’s themselves and still not realising the PA system 'suffers' from their 'unwanted' LF content. But luckily for them that wont be amplified anyway since most PA rigs use low-cut filters anyway...
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My apologies, I meant no offense.
Most audiophile systems don't even bother with much below 40hz or even a sub woofer. I personally think they are missing a little fun.
But hey, I am not much for classical music; to each his own. I live by the motto, "Why listen to the music when you can feel it?" I guess that pair Klipsch Corner-Horns connected to the Luxman tube amps that literally moved me in 1984 colored my judgement!
My aim is to get audiophile like performance into DJ systems so that I can stand listening to my DJ equipment at home on my days off.
I agree and disagree...
For me the term "rumble" describes either an hardware problem (turntable) or a particularity of the record, as described just above, could it be or not a mastering mistake. The punch is in midbass territory.
Some devices like big infinite baffles (or the mythical fan sub) can go under 10 Hz. These frequencies of course are never heard, but are very well perceived by other means, or by parasitic noises when shaking the house. The question is to know if they participate to the correctness of music restitution or add more disturbance. The fact is that mostly these frequencies are just artifacts possibly unseen when mixing. This happens also many times in live recording sessions otherwise excellent (ex: Ariodante from archiv, definitively not amateurish job).
So why talented producers have been keeping this ? From my experience it's because this gives a better sense of the venue where the record took place. These artifacts are part of the ambient, (ex: a slammed door in the background) and add a great sense of reality. It's also a necessity if you want to feel the illusion of a train passing (see Tom Danley or Choueri's demos) or of any live sound out of music.
Last word : classical music not shaking the building ? Some big organs have their lowest pipes disabled because of inducing building structural problems ...not enough ?
For me the term "rumble" describes either an hardware problem (turntable) or a particularity of the record, as described just above, could it be or not a mastering mistake. The punch is in midbass territory.
Some devices like big infinite baffles (or the mythical fan sub) can go under 10 Hz. These frequencies of course are never heard, but are very well perceived by other means, or by parasitic noises when shaking the house. The question is to know if they participate to the correctness of music restitution or add more disturbance. The fact is that mostly these frequencies are just artifacts possibly unseen when mixing. This happens also many times in live recording sessions otherwise excellent (ex: Ariodante from archiv, definitively not amateurish job).
So why talented producers have been keeping this ? From my experience it's because this gives a better sense of the venue where the record took place. These artifacts are part of the ambient, (ex: a slammed door in the background) and add a great sense of reality. It's also a necessity if you want to feel the illusion of a train passing (see Tom Danley or Choueri's demos) or of any live sound out of music.
Last word : classical music not shaking the building ? Some big organs have their lowest pipes disabled because of inducing building structural problems ...not enough ?
I participated in a friend's experiment once. His questioning was how low he should aim for complete natural feel of recorded symphonic instruments music. He is only into classical, and an accomplished pianist himself. He made an isobaric with two 15inch car woofers of long xmax, massive rubber surround, and high sens. Very low Fs. 1KW each they could take, he used 1.2kW pro sound plate amp. He has a ~60sqm listening space (sound treated) that openly links to a 30sqm lab space and a 10sqm kitchen via a T corridor. The building is old neoclassical, has heavy thick construction and much marble. In the end he could do high level 15Hz -3dB in room with that isobaric washing machine he made. He cranked it up listening to many classical CDs, put sine waves through it, took mic measurements, shook the building, went around up and down the stairs to the other floors, felt the walls. His conclusion was that the low frequency noises existing in many recordings, like shuffling feet, pages turning, EQ side effects or mics proximity effects that the mixing guy could not listen through medium size monitors, boosting the VLF also, became too annoyingly present and distracting, when there was no music to listen to below 30Hz in most of his collection. Mind you, he has a vast collection. He concluded that with 40Hz he would be fine, but with 30Hz he would be complete, and would low cut if there were exited room nodes lower. Hey, does this ring a bell from PA practice?
It was not taken as offensive just wanted to show the difference between personal preference and facts.
In mastering usually you wont hear the term 'rumble' as it indeed originates from 'turntable problems'. Usually 'unwanted low frequency content' or 'undefined LF content' or other variations are used.
Actually not many pro studio's have the ability to reproduce LF content below 20Hz as studio acoustics are often not optimised and most (big) reference monitoring systems just wont go that low (at high sound levels).
In post production for movie mixing this LF content is monitored. Not by the speaker system (reason as mentionend before) but by grafical representation in the software. The mixing engineer will decide if the LF content will be filtered or not, often based on analysing the signal. Roughly said, if the LF content is generated by the FX in the signal it means it is electronically generated by sound effects samples (often one octave lowered sounds). If the LF content is from acoustic recorded material from the movie side it is generally filtered.
Even the best producers have their productions taken care of by qualified mastering engineers. Even the most 'talented' producer doesn't guaranty a totally perfect signal. Actually on the contrary, most famous producer do deliver their 'products' as less touched as possible since they trust the task of the mastering engineer.
You are mixing movie FX sounds with music which was the discussion here. Tom Danley is not 'qualified' as talented producer but as talented loudspeaker designer/manufacturor with a lot of LF knowledge
. His personal preference hasn't set any industry standard for recording in music or movies, as far as I know. His view is based on his personal experience with extreme sound systems that fall out of any recording 'standard'. Also his products are not seen (yet?) or marketed as studio reference sub monitors. I doubt the TH subs will ever be as they 'suffer' from incorrect impulse behaviour. Although I never heard they are taken off because they can cause structural damage (I don't say they can't because I don't know) it is known they can destruct the organ pipe themselves if taken in to long sustain notes. Also, often they produce 'nasty' resonances from those lowest pipe(s) that lifts out the tone, what is generally not favoured by any organ player or the conductor.
Anyway, if it could damage the building it is again an argument if these 'destructive' frequencies are wanted in PA levels for sound reinforcement systems, don't you think?
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Djim, you got the point. Any way I would say that (IMHO of course), I don't see why a domestic system would be oriented movie or music. If a system can convincingly reproduce a symphony at high SPL, I think (and know) that it will also be OK with any FX or pop track (except the surround features of course). Naturally, the opposite is false, not all the HC systems will do well on classical, and I don't speak of the "girl with guitar" style. Same restriction for basic PA.
It's still harder to reproduce correctly non musical sound events, as trains, planes, broken glass, toilet flush...the list is infinite, and I would like so much that my system could satisfy this kind of tests !
It's still harder to reproduce correctly non musical sound events, as trains, planes, broken glass, toilet flush...the list is infinite, and I would like so much that my system could satisfy this kind of tests !
Absolutely. In live sound almost all content below 40-50Hz is junk, you don't want to waste power on it. The mix will sound much better if you get rid of it. On many channels you will cut even higher. If I can, I use a separate feed for the subs so I can control exactly what goes into them.
For DJ stuff it can be different, especially with dubstep and trance. That has a lot of low freq content that is important to the music.
If a home system digs really deep, you'll hear of lot of stuff that shouldn't be there, the mixing and mastering engineers probably missed it. Radio can be very bad about that.
Guess you never stood in front of a stack of EAW SB850s during sound check.
Actually I used to be a rock musician and stood in front of and facing many moster speaker systems. I played bass
BTW, one of the loudest over kill sound sys was when I saw the Rasberrys (mid 1970s) perform live at a bar/club setting where you could stand a couple of feet from the small stage and speakers.
Their bank of "Ampeg B25" speaker cabinets was a bit ridiculous for the room's size. However they did reproduce their studio sound for the most part.
And for even louder, it was the time I saw "Mott The Hoople" live and the whole (NY Uris) theater "shook" with the bass.
So, I'm no stranger for bass/sound over kill on the stage. However for my own stereo systems, I always wanted a clean,flat studio sound.
Admittedly I do like different sound when at at a concert or hearing a liive band.
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Like so many things that evolve, I grew up knowing them as "drone cones".
A standard "woofer" and a "drone cone" are coupled in a "passive radiator" system. My how things change.
No, if it isn't some web radio. Its just me remembered him, he was always striking me as having a Joey Ramone look BTW.
I stand corrected. I messed up that term. Passive radiator or drone cone. Not drone woofer.
On further though, there may be something that applies to the "rumble" quality of a sub, let's say all things being equal one speaker has an Xmax of 20mm and the other has Xmax of 5mm. Both are the same efficiency and power handling. Would the woofer with more Xmax move more air and "rumble" more?
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