I was browsing through some discussion revolving around LDR impressions and came upon these quotes which are illustrative of something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately:
But it points to this communication breakdown, in which newer DIYers don’t understand the reasoning of older more experienced designers using certain technology more as an intellectual exercise than something which results in measurably or subjectively improved performance. The sheer amount of time very talented engineers spend in endless circuitous debate with those SY describes as the magical thinking variety is beyond conception. I wonder what that would add up to in billable hours...
Then it got me thinking: well, let me assume he’s right- what should I do in light of this? (Let’s begin from the assumption that his assertions are correct, rather than descending into the kind of vitriol in large supply in other threads. I really, really don’t want to go there so please save it.) Would it not be more wise to pursue a design which:
Is relatively inexpensive for what it provides
Is environmentally responsible
Has the most flexibility for various users (adjustable gain or buffered, headphones etc.)
Has the most ease-of-use features (screen, remote, delayed turn-on, mute, etc.)
Since it seems performance is relatively inconsequential if one assumes a competent designer? To me, it seems a big issue is that there doesn’t seem to be many options that marry function with features. Why is the emphasis here seemingly on variations on core function and measuring down at -140db? Why is there little headway in features in diy, especially for the novice? I’m not saying they don’t exist, but they are in far shorter supply. Why do you think this is?
For example the only design I can find here that seems active with available PCBs which supports an OLED display out of the box is the Arduino LDR attenuator. (Which coincidently has been the subject of quite a bit of criticism from the objective camp / engineers.) Maybe the Maya as well? (If you know of others feel free to link to them).
My theory is half those building the Arduino design are doing so to utilize the display and remote rather than having much to do with the LDRs. Given that the problem of a transparent preamplifier seems to be solved, should not things which add utility to the end user be considered the area most worthy of attention? Doug Self’s newer blameless preamp still has the same old tin can and knobs. Regardless of performance gains, how can this be viewed as blameless in 2018?
Are none of you married? Is this not reinventing the wheel? Misguided talent? A cat chasing its tail?
Interested to hear others thoughts.
And after someone took a jab at his tube designs posted here:
The thing that first struck me was the word fun. I personally would presume other reasons for the additional expense, effort, power consumption, etc. than *just* fun, but all people are different and all deserve their own conception of fun. From my perspective it seems SY’s idea of fun has worked against his goals of spearheading objective thinking on behalf of DIYers. Perhaps I’m misguided, but it seems he’s added to his own future headaches in some ways- with all due respect (I’ve built some of SY’s designs, and enjoy them very much).
But it points to this communication breakdown, in which newer DIYers don’t understand the reasoning of older more experienced designers using certain technology more as an intellectual exercise than something which results in measurably or subjectively improved performance. The sheer amount of time very talented engineers spend in endless circuitous debate with those SY describes as the magical thinking variety is beyond conception. I wonder what that would add up to in billable hours...
Then it got me thinking: well, let me assume he’s right- what should I do in light of this? (Let’s begin from the assumption that his assertions are correct, rather than descending into the kind of vitriol in large supply in other threads. I really, really don’t want to go there so please save it.) Would it not be more wise to pursue a design which:
Is relatively inexpensive for what it provides
Is environmentally responsible
Has the most flexibility for various users (adjustable gain or buffered, headphones etc.)
Has the most ease-of-use features (screen, remote, delayed turn-on, mute, etc.)
Since it seems performance is relatively inconsequential if one assumes a competent designer? To me, it seems a big issue is that there doesn’t seem to be many options that marry function with features. Why is the emphasis here seemingly on variations on core function and measuring down at -140db? Why is there little headway in features in diy, especially for the novice? I’m not saying they don’t exist, but they are in far shorter supply. Why do you think this is?
For example the only design I can find here that seems active with available PCBs which supports an OLED display out of the box is the Arduino LDR attenuator. (Which coincidently has been the subject of quite a bit of criticism from the objective camp / engineers.) Maybe the Maya as well? (If you know of others feel free to link to them).
My theory is half those building the Arduino design are doing so to utilize the display and remote rather than having much to do with the LDRs. Given that the problem of a transparent preamplifier seems to be solved, should not things which add utility to the end user be considered the area most worthy of attention? Doug Self’s newer blameless preamp still has the same old tin can and knobs. Regardless of performance gains, how can this be viewed as blameless in 2018?
Are none of you married? Is this not reinventing the wheel? Misguided talent? A cat chasing its tail?
Interested to hear others thoughts.
Well, as I'm sure this thread will go off the rails soon, because I'm sure one of the early posters will redefine "blameless" to their own imagined criteria despite Self's very clear definition, I will try to get in early.
Yes, you have a point, at this time a blameless preamp would have to look quite different, something like a PGA, rotary encoder, LDR, etc., or the designer could not claim to have minimized all known distortion mechanisms in the design.
However, I wholeheartedly agree with SY, and similar minds that fun should be a big driver. I'm in the camp that believes you get below threshold of audibility pretty quickly in a competent design, so why not ignore the blameless criteria and let the designer make an arbitrary design choice and run with it.
Yes, you have a point, at this time a blameless preamp would have to look quite different, something like a PGA, rotary encoder, LDR, etc., or the designer could not claim to have minimized all known distortion mechanisms in the design.
However, I wholeheartedly agree with SY, and similar minds that fun should be a big driver. I'm in the camp that believes you get below threshold of audibility pretty quickly in a competent design, so why not ignore the blameless criteria and let the designer make an arbitrary design choice and run with it.
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You know where I stand, preferences step in long before simple detection of differences. The LDR stuff is like picking at old scabs. I had a discussion with one of the designers here and IIRC it was very respectful and cordial, but not conclusive. I'm not convinced that one could not get the distortions of an LDR down to a level where the effects box arguments are questionable.
One always has to keep in mind the output levels of the transducers and the input levels of the reproducers are set by basic technological considerations. The linear dynamic ranges of bipolars, JFET's, MOSFET's and valves are very different but they are used to condition the same set of signals.
To elaborate a little the idea of "magic" here (and elsewhere with other phenomena) stems from some feeling that using light to modulate a resistor has some hidden or unmeasurable effects, there is no basis for this.
One always has to keep in mind the output levels of the transducers and the input levels of the reproducers are set by basic technological considerations. The linear dynamic ranges of bipolars, JFET's, MOSFET's and valves are very different but they are used to condition the same set of signals.
To elaborate a little the idea of "magic" here (and elsewhere with other phenomena) stems from some feeling that using light to modulate a resistor has some hidden or unmeasurable effects, there is no basis for this.
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I forgot to say: if you're knocking Self's preamp, as I don't know which one you are referring to, are you sure he claimed it was blameless? I don't know how many threads have been started asking about Self's blameless power amp in which the OP was actually referring to a different Self design.
Not sure why someone having fun designing audio circuits using tubes to have fun listening to music is a problem. DF96 does the same.
It's a hobby after all. Now the problem on here is that there is a bit of care in the community going on with some members which, whilst harmless does waste a lot of bandwidth. That is the cost of the modern internet and we can't roll the clock back however much we want to.
It's a hobby after all. Now the problem on here is that there is a bit of care in the community going on with some members which, whilst harmless does waste a lot of bandwidth. That is the cost of the modern internet and we can't roll the clock back however much we want to.
I’m not knocking anyone’s preferences or any specific circuit designs and certainly mean no offense to Mr. Self. In fact I mean no offense or negative criticism to anyone I referenced. I’m using blameless not in a specific sense related not only to Self designs. Simply looking for thoughtful dialogue on the topic. I have my own views here and there, but of course respect and am interested by the views of others. I am not saying “this is how it is” but rather asking “do you notice what I do?”
Which begs the question, what do you do?
As far as I can work out your issue is that having perfected substance where are the bells and whistles.
I agree that this can be more easily explained via mythology and cognitive bias than hitherto. But I’m building one nonetheless out of curiosity. Mostly I’m intrigued by the capabilities of the code base and OLED display. I am not expecting it to sound better. I might pair it with a buffer. The million dollar (multi-part) question I’m asking is:
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Why do preamplifier, power amplifier etc. topologies outnumber feature-oriented add-on topologies at least 100/1 given that the most educated and sensible among us tell us there is no appreciable difference between them? And do you think this has the unintended effect of spreading the kind of magical thinking that is endemic in this hobby? (I.e human novice says: I see 100 preamp options here, can’t help but think they must have appreciable differences. Why would people dispense so much human energy otherwise?)
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Also I have yet to see anyone say at the end of an explanation of their schematic “well, it’ll cost you $1,000 to build but really the performance is the same as this $250 commercial thing because 0.01THD isn’t audible anyhow so don’t actually bother building it unless you’re looking for a way to spend a bunch of money and a half dozen Saturday afternoons.”
Why not add features to a given “thing” rather than make a whole new “thing” that provides zero difference from the one that preceded it? Would that not be “as fun”? Or why not make a thing that lasts far longer, or is more environmentally conscious, or can more easily accept various supplemental components? To me it seems like a wasteful philosophy to build something and then build again and again. I see many people building enough amps to supply both heat and music for entire remote Icelandic villages.
Sure, that can be fun. I’m not saying don’t have fun. I just thought it strange it almost universally doesn’t seem to be considered more fun and sustainable to approach things a bit differently. Sometimes I feel like I’m watching people build houses that only contained living rooms. Then going on to build another house with just bathrooms. Then building a tram system to connect the two houses when you need to get up from the couch to pee. Perhaps I’m the only one who feels this way.
That’s a succinct way of putting it. However, it sounds rather bossy and I’m not saying “I know you’re hiding it somewhere so why don’t you roll it out for me”. I’m happy to explore my own solutions that matter to me. There’s other components to it, but to address that specifically:
I’m asking why hasn’t the evolution of this hobby naturally followed this course?
Wouldn’t that be the most sensible thing to do given everything else has already been perfected?
It genuinely confuses me it is not already this way.
Is it the capitalist element?
Am I missing something?
I've said something to this very effect a number of times. And I'm not even a competent analog designer! Don't think I'm the only one.
Most of the octuple zero THD amplifiers/gear are purely done for the intellectual interest of the designer.
Possibly because once you get beyond the pure audio bit adding features often requires other non-audio skills.
If you had the cross-disciplinary skillset required to build something akin to Naim Uniti Atom from scratch what value would you put on that skillset?
Lots of skill sets here. Perhaps not well organized toward any kind of shared goal though, which is unfortunate. The atom was likely not even close to being produced by a single designer with a vast skill set. Definitely a UI designer on the payroll for that. I’m not suggesting a Naim Atom either, I set the bar much lower. Given the collective energy expended on recreating basic function, there is at the very least potential. Also, much more has been charged for much less. Measurably questionable designs that are not feature rich routinely sell for 5 figures and beyond. I don’t see any special inherent value in features that would indicate that’s why it’s being mysteriously withheld. I imagine the reasons are much less complicated.
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OK, now I better understand what you were getting at.
If you mean the community as a whole, there is definitely an "old fart" element. So many in our community are chasing some element of desire of some past experience.
Yes, sometimes it is silly. I remember an old project where someone took a group buy preamp pcb or kit or something and built it together with a remote control preamp kit from China and I thought "that guy just beat the pants off of everybody else in this thread who are showing pics of their exotic build."
If you know enough to design, then there are those who probably like to throw in a curve ball. Something like a tube amp using only curved glass tubes or that no-sand version Allen Wright PP amp.
Also, there are still some holes left believe it or not. A little while back I was researching chip-only balanced line drivers. I didn't like a single published design I came across, I'll share what I designed when I build it.
If you mean the community as a whole, there is definitely an "old fart" element. So many in our community are chasing some element of desire of some past experience.
Yes, sometimes it is silly. I remember an old project where someone took a group buy preamp pcb or kit or something and built it together with a remote control preamp kit from China and I thought "that guy just beat the pants off of everybody else in this thread who are showing pics of their exotic build."
If you know enough to design, then there are those who probably like to throw in a curve ball. Something like a tube amp using only curved glass tubes or that no-sand version Allen Wright PP amp.
Also, there are still some holes left believe it or not. A little while back I was researching chip-only balanced line drivers. I didn't like a single published design I came across, I'll share what I designed when I build it.
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You and I seem to be seeing roughly eye to eye. Agreed, I find no inherent fault in SY’s or anyone else’s methods of finding joy and entertainment. But why SO MUCH rehashing relative to other pursuits? At some point does it begin to work against the credibility of the hobby and confuse those dipping their feet in the water?
To me it seems at a certain point it reinforces the snake-oil mentality many of you abhor. I would think the old farts as you call them also have some kind of passion for the hobby and want to see it thrive in future generations? Or do the boomers have no greater aspiration than self-pleasure? Why can’t intellectual interest overlap with utility? Or with an eye to encouraging new adoption? Or environmental sensitivity?
Or rather- why does it not more often? This would seem to me perhaps the most noble method of passing the torch, so-to-speak.
Why does this intellectual interest rarely overlap with practicality, but instead tends to be chasing performance characteristics that the designer feels are inaudible and provide no actual benefit in listening to music? Does that not appear as absurd to you as it does to me? Why not channel this energy toward more useful ends?
The potential to do what? The odd blinking light on the front panel ? A touchscreen? Perhaps a concrete suggestion might move things along.
If I had to make a suggestion (which was not really what I was driving at) it would be:
Collaboration which better involves the varied skill set of the community (from front panels and form to coding to UI to circuit design and so forth). More designs (basic building blocks) that are modular and interchangeable, reducing wasted materials as well as human energy. Reduced reinvention of technologies that have been previously perfected.
I mean, they did it with the diyaudio store cases with their mounting system- why don’t we do it with the circuits themselves?
Edit: here is an example of a design which roughly fits my criteria and was realized by two individuals The α10 Stereo Pre-amplifier It’s modular, can be assembled as a fully realized concept or the components used to other ends. I think being inclusive of more individuals would multiply the possibilities.
Collaboration which better involves the varied skill set of the community (from front panels and form to coding to UI to circuit design and so forth). More designs (basic building blocks) that are modular and interchangeable, reducing wasted materials as well as human energy. Reduced reinvention of technologies that have been previously perfected.
I mean, they did it with the diyaudio store cases with their mounting system- why don’t we do it with the circuits themselves?
Edit: here is an example of a design which roughly fits my criteria and was realized by two individuals The α10 Stereo Pre-amplifier It’s modular, can be assembled as a fully realized concept or the components used to other ends. I think being inclusive of more individuals would multiply the possibilities.
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That's purely a value judgement. Have you seen the extent some folks go to on their cars/houses/boats/fashion/what-have-you. Go buy an adcom/parasound/NAD/whatever nowadays if that's the goal, and that's an entirely respectable goal. Nothing really in diyaudio is practical. It's a hobby, people get their kicks in different ways. We should celebrate it.
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