@5thElement:
the rich people that I know, are probably unlike the rich people you know.
which is okay, if you believe that active Kef's would go over great, hey more power to ya.
the thing I have observed about the rich is that they do not do more than is necessary. They complain, when they have to learn a new remote. They are not the types to go through menus to start a DSP sequence after the power goes out, they hear sweeps and they think the thing's broken...
then they call the stereo store and tell them to send someone over to service the "crap" they just paid a small fortune for, and they expect to be coddled, given preferential treatment because it's the way they go through life. IF anyone screws that up, they go somewhere else with their money.
the rich people that I know, are probably unlike the rich people you know.
which is okay, if you believe that active Kef's would go over great, hey more power to ya.
the thing I have observed about the rich is that they do not do more than is necessary. They complain, when they have to learn a new remote. They are not the types to go through menus to start a DSP sequence after the power goes out, they hear sweeps and they think the thing's broken...
then they call the stereo store and tell them to send someone over to service the "crap" they just paid a small fortune for, and they expect to be coddled, given preferential treatment because it's the way they go through life. IF anyone screws that up, they go somewhere else with their money.
Used ones are regularly available for three figures. (Dunno about IP licensing issues with used ones; also, mic kits typically don't seem to be sold with the units.)
Onkyo and Marantz also have reasonably-priced AVR's and preamp/processors using Audyssey technologies.
Overall, I think it does what it's supposed to do. Audyssey's approach to multiple subwoofers is fundamentally flawed, though...
You're neglecting the clutter issue, though. All those boxes have to go somewhere. And amps (especially "high end" amps) tend to be large.
Ask NHT how well that works in practice.
Also, consider that a firm may not have DSP engineers on staff, but they have engineers who are well-versed in passive crossover design. Here, KEF's (and Celestion's) current parent company seems to make speakers, wiring harnesses, and batteries. For a company like Tannoy, whose parent company does a lot of pro audio electronics, that may be less of an issue.
It's worth noting that even KEF's iPod docks don't use active drive, or any EQ at all in the amp. (The one place active drive has made real commercial inroads is in iPod docks and small computer speakers.) Their Picoforte line use KEF's standard HT eggs and a small Class D amp.
Look at the measurements of any Linn speaker (passive or active) and it is immediately clear that, regardless of their approach, they are not as successful ("success" defined as "high-performance") as KEF is.
Well I don't actually know any rich people I know a few people who've worked for their pennies, but then they wont complain if the remote breaks etc. But your comment here does surprise me somewhat. I didn't figure that rich = moronically stupid or do rich people in general have trouble navigating simple user friendly menus? Perhaps I should stop there, people of any age or 'social class' seem to have enough trouble with simple menu driven technology.
To highlight the point though, the DSP doesn't need to be anything more then a box with an input selector, a volume control and some sort of display, ie a pre-amp. If I were going to market a DSP solution it'd come with virtually nothing that identifies it as being a digital crossover. Except that it'd maybe have a few subtle options with regards to EQ so as to tune the system to your taste, or tune your music to sound nice.
The DSP box that I've got works exactly like you'd imagine a preamp would. Digital goes in, analogue comes out. The remote then offers volume control, muting and switching between the loudspeakers and the headphones, besides other things like turning it on/off and turning the glowing bits on and off and development stuff that's only useful to me. If simplicity is required no one ever need know that the preamp actually has an 8 channel active crossover inside based on a DSP. Add in a few more inputs and an ADC and it'd be functionally like any other preamp.
I am not neglecting the clutter issue at all, the rich who like status symbols and big cars etc would probably prefer that they have more showy boxes on their very expensive hi-fi rack(s) then less. Audiophilia isn't the type of thing that usually has people wanting to hide their hifi, they want it to look good so they can show it off and the more there is to show off the better. Just go look around the non DIY sections of HTguide, people specifically design and dedicate rooms to show off their hifi bling. I wouldn't design a room specifically to show off something to someone else, but I do like having my hifi on show and this is because I like looking at it!
Well you don't actually need to be a 'DSP' engineer to use the modern versions of the DSP chips. I don't know how to 'do it', yet I've built my own one. Analogue devices have bridged that gap with their sigmaDSP line of chips and the free programs they come with. I think TI have something similar too. Granted this requires you need to know how to code micros and implement electronics, but most companies can do that anyway.
Well if KEF have the ability to implement those docks then they should easily be able to make a DSP unit. If KEF aren't exploiting the current range of digital amplifiers that come with some simple built in DSP or whatever then they should learn to do so! I can ironically see active loudspeakers becoming common place in the 'low-fi' consumer market before they make their way into the upmarket hifi arena. I mean with cheap low power digital amplifiers becoming more common place and those now containing say 4 biquads of DSP per channel, it's only a matter of time until someone thinks, hey why don't we use TIs 4 channel amp and use the built in DSP as a crossover.
I wondered if you would mention that
I never said that Linn could design a good pair of loudspeakers, even if they do have all of the tools available to do so. Nevertheless they are still in business and they still sell active loudspeakers, so it must do something right.
Well both are successful so either would do. Meridian were already mentioned in this thread so I figured I'd mention someone else. Genelec have been making active loudspeakers for years as have ATC although the former isn't really aimed at audiophiles I don't think but the latter certainly is.
" What does a £10,000 speaker + Elco caps & cored inductors in $16,000 speakers ??"
If what's meant is what do you get for your money when you spend $16,000 the answer is not much. I don't think you can start talking seriously about high fidelity for anywhere under about $75,000 to $100,000 a pair of speakers and that's for entry level. Chalk it up to inflation and the high cost of scientific research.
If what's meant is what do you get for your money when you spend $16,000 the answer is not much. I don't think you can start talking seriously about high fidelity for anywhere under about $75,000 to $100,000 a pair of speakers and that's for entry level. Chalk it up to inflation and the high cost of scientific research.
Well I don't actually know any rich people I know a few people who've worked for their pennies, but then they wont complain if the remote breaks etc. But your comment here does surprise me somewhat. I didn't figure that rich = moronically stupid or do rich people in general have trouble navigating simple user friendly menus? Perhaps I should stop there, people of any age or 'social class' seem to have enough trouble with simple menu driven technology.
I'm just saying that the penetration level for the rich is less, on getting a geek on...
they won't waste the time on moving speakers in their living area, finding where the subs should go, they won't toe-in their cabinets to see if it helps with imaging, they have a mild interest in how good their money sounds but it's just a square on a coat of many colors, diy folks seem to allot their free time to this and in a greater portion, a bigger bloc.
It's not that they can't learn, but more that they don't care enough to learn.
I suspect this is a percentages game. As money takes more of your time, you spend less on audio, i.e. the more successful you become the less you are able to indulge in a passionate way, in the audio arts.
And the average man of 50 years of age is likely to remember audio from when he had time to spend on it, so he goes for names and marquees that he remembers if they are still going.
And if anyone spends more money on audio than an average US home, then they aren't in the bell curve anyway.
Impossible to build an SOTA speaker for less than 50K in todays market and no, Rich people are not stupid, they are 2 categories, those that are philes and those who just want the best of the best and are use to working with professionals, they do so on a daily basis and view those that sell their wares to be professionals, hence they will allow their technician to deal with the toe in and the sound if not to their liking...
The rich philes do it themselves ....
The rich philes do it themselves ....
That sounds an awful lot like the DEQX box NHT commissioned for their xD (Xd?) system. Maybe there are other reasons that system didn't light the world on fire (like the limited low end of the 5" Seas Excel midwoofer, or maybe the styling though I always thought they looked great) but the fact of the matter is that there have been lots of active speakers that got great reviews (until the active-bass NHT T6, the Waveform Mach 17 was Stereophile's cheapest-ever "Class A Recommended" loudspeaker) and probably sounded wonderful, but the market for whatever reason doesn't like that route.
The rich I know tend to have things like NAD DVD-receivers driving NHT Absolute Zeros, haphazardly-placed.
I think that's a minority view. Especially when one considers that many people for whom five-figure speakers are a reasonable allocation of funds live in dense urban areas, and may have seven- or eight- figure homes but don't have dedicated listening rooms.
As I wrote above, that is what's actually happening.
But what I want to see is the plate amp with 2-3 channels totaling maybe 200W, DSP with Mac-compatible software, wireless signal connections, and under 200USD a piece. When we can get that, it'll mean that the Paradigms, KEF's, and Harman's of the world can probably get them for $40-50 in quantity, and ultimately it's cost and nothing else that will tip the scales in favor of active.
I know you're joking, but the few speakers I've heard in the 80k+ range have been awful, not just for the money but on an absolute scale. Hardly up to the sonic level of $300 Infinity Primus, let alone a 20k KEF or Revel.
It seems no one mentioned Hi-End audio is a business about fashion. Like other sections of the market, fashion is about the bling-bling factors -- new, shiny, beautiful, exotic, strange yet interesting, bigger, more powerful look, delicately finished, expensive look, something you can brag about ....
It's also mixed by the myth of "expensive means valuable", and the anxiety to make oneself look reasonable after the huge spend.
It's also a wrong assumption in the first place that expensive stuff is equal to good quality. There've already been numerous cases here that the top notch sport cars catch on fire in the first trip leaving the show rooms.
Ok, back to audio, I've encountered a very big and expensive speaker with the 2 woofers connected in wrong polarity. That's a big WTMMW with both woofers facing forward in separate boxes, no push-pull trick or the likes. One of the pair was OK, the other was wrongly assembled, which made the in room bass response very strange.
Funny there's the signature of the technician on the marking, and also a measured FR chart comes along with the speaker (don't know the measurement was onto which...). Fashion stuff, indeed.
It's also mixed by the myth of "expensive means valuable", and the anxiety to make oneself look reasonable after the huge spend.
It's also a wrong assumption in the first place that expensive stuff is equal to good quality. There've already been numerous cases here that the top notch sport cars catch on fire in the first trip leaving the show rooms.
Ok, back to audio, I've encountered a very big and expensive speaker with the 2 woofers connected in wrong polarity. That's a big WTMMW with both woofers facing forward in separate boxes, no push-pull trick or the likes. One of the pair was OK, the other was wrongly assembled, which made the in room bass response very strange.
Funny there's the signature of the technician on the marking, and also a measured FR chart comes along with the speaker (don't know the measurement was onto which...). Fashion stuff, indeed.
I was thinking about that when I wrote my previous reply. After having seen some of the new tech that TI are pushing with regards to wireless headphones etc, having all amps/dsp/crossovers inside the loudspeakers, without even the need for any signal wires, just a power plug, now that should get a lot of peoples attention, even mine and I like looking at my hifi!
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