Because of the response you measured or something else, what's the problem?
Have you measured the setup by looping it back into itself, including the amp if possible? (watch for damage to the soundcard inputs from the amp level, DC offset etc... consider zener clamps/attenuators)
Measurement software will typically show the impulse after measurement so you can visually choose your gating. Either too short gating, or including reflections can give significantly misleading results.
Have you measured the setup by looping it back into itself, including the amp if possible? (watch for damage to the soundcard inputs from the amp level, DC offset etc... consider zener clamps/attenuators)
Measurement software will typically show the impulse after measurement so you can visually choose your gating. Either too short gating, or including reflections can give significantly misleading results.
Fatmarley, I know I'm bit dim, but I'm really completely lost here. 
Could we have a photo of this speaker and its crossover. Then I might be able to keep up with this epic. We're not all flippin Albert Einstein you know.
Could we have a photo of this speaker and its crossover. Then I might be able to keep up with this epic. We're not all flippin Albert Einstein you know.
LC audio filter?
Hey FM, An easier way to identify the type of filters you have is to look at the actual circuit and determine how many components are being used in the signal path for each speaker and each channel.
If you have one component like a capacitor acting as a bass filter wired in series with the speaker output, then it is a first order filter. If you add an inductor in parrallel with that same capacitor, then you have a second order filter and so on.
The more components you add the more the sound is tainted and this is why it is crucial to use good quality capacitors and inductors in the crossovers.
Hope this helps.
Hey FM, An easier way to identify the type of filters you have is to look at the actual circuit and determine how many components are being used in the signal path for each speaker and each channel.
If you have one component like a capacitor acting as a bass filter wired in series with the speaker output, then it is a first order filter. If you add an inductor in parrallel with that same capacitor, then you have a second order filter and so on.
The more components you add the more the sound is tainted and this is why it is crucial to use good quality capacitors and inductors in the crossovers.
Hope this helps.
The speakers don't sound like they have a 6db bass hump to me and yet, when I measured the speakers in the garden, they have a 6db bass hump. The nearest boundary to the woofer was the floor at 2.4 meters away, so with a gate of 10ms I should get an accurate measurement down to 45Hz. I even tried an 8ms and 5ms gate and got the same bass hump (it just rolls off earlier), so I don't think it has anything to do with my measurement technique.
The point being, If the speakers sound like they have a flat response but measure with a bass hump, then something must be wrong. The only way I can think of checking my measurement gear for faults is to measure some speakers that have been measured by someone else (For example - Mission m71 are cheap and were measured by Stereophile) or to send my microphone calibration file to someone to look at. The mic is a Behringer ECM8000 from cross spectrum labs
Yes I did that.
As said above, the gating isn't the problem. I lined up the impulse response in the time windows to get an accurate start time and tried gating at various times (5ms 8ms and 10ms)
Fatmarley, I know I'm bit dim, but I'm really completely lost here.
Could we have a photo of this speaker and its crossover. Then I might be able to keep up with this epic. We're not all flippin Albert Einstein you know.
Ok, I'll get the camera out.
If you measured at 1m, the 2.4m boundary might have offered an out of phase signal at just below 200Hz...higher if you were further back. At that distance however it would have been down in level.
10ms might be more suitable for above 100Hz. If there is a delay in your bass signal you may need to gate even longer. When you go too close with the gating you may end up with a peak.
Measuring is most helpful above this point anyway. You can still design your crossover if you leave the bass for later room integration and equalisation.
You ought to confirm the low end by doing nearfield measurements on the woofer.
An avid audiophile (the real kindWe're not all flippin Albert Einstein you know.
). If only he were from different times...I'd like to see his speakers While this is plausible, it is only a small effect. Not correcting and shaping the responses properly is a major thing and shouldn't be overlooked.
For what is worth I heard that infamous Vifa M21Wg type of woofer in Audio Note K (Snell K derived ) speakers in recent Axpona audio show in Chicago. About the best , most natural sounding room on that show. Forget those expensive Audio Physic , MBL and other Utopias To ad insult to the injury the dreaded woofer is crossed to 3/4" Vifa D19Td based poly tweeter (whooping $16 each at Parts Express ) modified for AN.
PS
Following the experience I hauled home Snell Type k speakers and I'm awaiting new surrounds . Since the surrounds are cracked but playable (without rubbing ) I hooked up speakers to 300B amp , clean quiet sound but it's painfully obvious that tweeters are plain vanilla generic splashy sound and since they are from 83' ferrofluid is gone resulting in more rasp .
I have Hiquphon OWI on hand or could buy those vifas from Parts express or even get spl matched vifa DX19 to substitute but it look like daunting task to go trough the raffles of Snell tweaked crossover ...
To ad insult to the injury the dreaded woofer is crossed to 3/4" Vifa D19Td based poly tweeter (whooping $16 each at Parts Express ) modified for AN.PS
Following the experience I hauled home Snell Type k speakers and I'm awaiting new surrounds . Since the surrounds are cracked but playable (without rubbing ) I hooked up speakers to 300B amp , clean quiet sound but it's painfully obvious that tweeters are plain vanilla generic splashy sound and since they are from 83' ferrofluid is gone resulting in more rasp .
I have Hiquphon OWI on hand or could buy those vifas from Parts express or even get spl matched vifa DX19 to substitute but it look like daunting task to go trough the raffles of Snell tweaked crossover ...
For what is worth I heard that infamous Vifa M21Wg type of woofer in Audio Note K (Snell K derived ) speakers in recent Axpona audio show in Chicago. About the best , most natural sounding room on that show. Forget those expensive Audio Physic , MBL and other Utopias To ad insult to the injury the dreaded woofer is crossed to 3/4" Vifa D19Td based poly tweeter (whooping $16 each at Parts Express ) modified for AN.
PS
Following the experience I hauled home Snell Type k speakers and I'm awaiting new surrounds . Since the surrounds are cracked but playable (without rubbing ) I hooked up speakers to 300B amp , clean quiet sound but it's painfully obvious that tweeters are plain vanilla generic splashy sound and since they are from 83' ferrofluid is gone resulting in more rasp .
I have Hiquphon OWI on hand or could buy those vifas from Parts express or even get spl matched vifa DX19 to substitute but it look like daunting task to go trough the raffles of Snell tweaked crossover ...
To ad insult to the injury the dreaded woofer is crossed to 3/4" Vifa D19Td based poly tweeter (whooping $16 each at Parts Express ) modified for AN.PS
Following the experience I hauled home Snell Type k speakers and I'm awaiting new surrounds . Since the surrounds are cracked but playable (without rubbing ) I hooked up speakers to 300B amp , clean quiet sound but it's painfully obvious that tweeters are plain vanilla generic splashy sound and since they are from 83' ferrofluid is gone resulting in more rasp .
I have Hiquphon OWI on hand or could buy those vifas from Parts express or even get spl matched vifa DX19 to substitute but it look like daunting task to go trough the raffles of Snell tweaked crossover ...
For what is worth I heard that infamous Vifa M21Wg type of woofer in Audio Note K (Snell K derived ) speakers in recent Axpona audio show in Chicago. About the best , most natural sounding room on that show. Forget those expensive Audio Physic , MBL and other Utopias
PS
Following the experience I hauled home Snell Type k speakers and I'm awaiting new surrounds . Since the surrounds are cracked but playable (without rubbing ) I hooked up speakers to 300B amp , clean quiet sound but it's painfully obvious that tweeters are plain vanilla generic splashy sound and since they are from 83' ferrofluid is gone resulting in more rasp .
I have Hiquphon OWI on hand or could buy those vifas from Parts express or even get spl matched vifa DX19 to substitute but it look like daunting task to go trough the raffles of Snell tweaked crossover ...
Sorry, I honestly don't know how I missed your post.
I'd love to hear an original pair of Snell k to compare against mine, but it would probably depress me. Peter snell was an amazing speaker designer (i'm more of a bodger).
What midbass drivers are in your Snell k? The early ones had undoped cones.
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Just compared my speakers to some World Audio Design KLS3, 3-way speakers. Mine were much better this time with the latest crossover but still not a match for the KLS3. Mine were a touch bass heavy on some tracks (full 6db baffle step is a bit OTT) and vocals didn't project as well as the KLS3. I suppose you could say mine were a bit 'flat' sounding in comparison. It's left me wondering if it's a 2-way vs 3-way thing or maybe a sensitivity thing? (mine are around 84db at a guess, and his around 90db). Maybe a bit of both?
I had some 2-way Tannoys that projected very well (the frequency extemes weren't great though) so i'd imagine a lower crossover point could be the answer (if I were to stick to 2-way speakers). The Tannoys were around 90/91db sensitivty IIRC.
EDIT:
Apparently mine are better than Naim SBL but couldn't compare because he'd sold them (too harsh).
I had some 2-way Tannoys that projected very well (the frequency extemes weren't great though) so i'd imagine a lower crossover point could be the answer (if I were to stick to 2-way speakers). The Tannoys were around 90/91db sensitivty IIRC.
EDIT:
Apparently mine are better than Naim SBL but couldn't compare because he'd sold them (too harsh).
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i have the early paper woofers with 2cm doping rings right next to surround. after some deliberation i did put 87db owi tweeter instead of vifa. the crossover on my snells are 2.3mh 12uf on woofer 1,5ohm 8uf 3.7mh on tweeter other speaker has 2.3 mh 11.5uf 1.4 ohm 7.8 uf 2.4mh . i shorted variable resistor since owi is 2-3db less efficient . there is no question that in midband original configuration with vifa has smoother more natural transition and subjectively sounds much better off axis but owi is a much better quality tweeter and sounds like it even without any effort to optimize the crossover. i just was going to assemble measuring rig and go beyond armchair trolling but month ago i've blown my head and hands getting to close to 15kv industrial power line and it will take a year to recover so no more experiments for a while . i have 10' tannoy golds but in my small room and in 70 l closed box they were little overbearing , got a pair of reds which are supposedly quite a bit better with flea amps but it'll all have to wait.
you know, as amateurish as it looks, your way to get the sound you want is the only valid way. i mostly dislike all high end speakers i have a chance to hear , what chance do i have building diy project which supposed to catch with those high end designs for much less if i couldn't stand the former ? none . back to that crappy vifa woofer what i like about it is tone , it simply has a great voice/tonal quality . ok enough one finger's typing , have fun !
you know, as amateurish as it looks, your way to get the sound you want is the only valid way. i mostly dislike all high end speakers i have a chance to hear , what chance do i have building diy project which supposed to catch with those high end designs for much less if i couldn't stand the former ? none . back to that crappy vifa woofer what i like about it is tone , it simply has a great voice/tonal quality . ok enough one finger's typing , have fun !
Sorry to hear about your accident - sounds nasty
Yep measuring is the way to go. It's still not easy with measuring gear but it's all good fun.
3-way, high'ish sensitivity design for me next - Should cause some head scratching but I like a challenge.
Well, i've now got about 3 to 4 db BSC (rather than the full 6db) and have brought up the treble to match and I think they sound much better.
Now when I watch films, I can hear what people are saying much easier, without having to turn the volume up to unreasonable levels and also gun fire and car chases don't sound like we're in the middle of a nuclear war
Now when I watch films, I can hear what people are saying much easier, without having to turn the volume up to unreasonable levels and also gun fire and car chases don't sound like we're in the middle of a nuclear war
Pretty unreadable thread this, my friend.
This is what I use with a high efficiency 8" bass these days, tweeter wired negative polarity. You'll probably want to try 3.3R shunt resistance instead of 10R on your bass.
3kHz crossover or thereabouts. Don't waste time on soft domes anymore though. Awful things. They just Spit and Sizzle at you.
Clue:
If you want to treat cone breakup, I focus on the stuff around 7-8 kHz. The lower frequency stuff doesn't sound objectionable on an 8" IMO.
This is what I use with a high efficiency 8" bass these days, tweeter wired negative polarity. You'll probably want to try 3.3R shunt resistance instead of 10R on your bass.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
3kHz crossover or thereabouts. Don't waste time on soft domes anymore though. Awful things. They just Spit and Sizzle at you.
Clue:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If you want to treat cone breakup, I focus on the stuff around 7-8 kHz. The lower frequency stuff doesn't sound objectionable on an 8" IMO.
Quote - "Pretty unreadable thread this, my friend. "
Yes I suppose I should have included some measurements and stuff but I was just excited at the fact that i've finally got the speakers sounding great.
I tried your crossover Steve but I couldn't get the treble flat.
Those Sony speakers remind me a little of the Klang+Ton CT230. They are a well regarded diy speaker in Germany, so i've been told.
What type of tweeter is that in the Sony E44?
Yes I suppose I should have included some measurements and stuff but I was just excited at the fact that i've finally got the speakers sounding great.
I tried your crossover Steve but I couldn't get the treble flat.
Those Sony speakers remind me a little of the Klang+Ton CT230. They are a well regarded diy speaker in Germany, so i've been told.
What type of tweeter is that in the Sony E44?
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