Right, if only Hypex modules were in my price range.
Icepower 125ASX2 is below $120, complete with PSU.
I want a good quality (Audiophile grade) Class D amp, because I really like these amp's simplicity and small size. It was mentioned many great amps in the second post, but I don't need the lots of hundreds of watts.
I think, for a normal living room, 2 x 5W - 2 x 10W is more than enough. If you ask my wife, 2 x 0.5W is the max power, what I need... I also want to keep the PCB as small as possible.
My question is: What is your recommendation for that? Are there any comparable quality small power chips to the ICEpower, Hypex, ....?
I was looking around on Analog Devices's pages and found SSM3302.
It is small 2 x 10W amplifier and it has very good parameters (on paper). Do anyone have any real life experiences about this chip?
The other thing is it's packaging: Isn't it too much painful to solder it?
I also have seen some AD amp chips with I2S input. What is the preferred solution? Have a separated DAC or an integrated one? I feel a separated could be more flexible... I mean easier to change, if I don't like? Any experiences about this?
I think, for a normal living room, 2 x 5W - 2 x 10W is more than enough. If you ask my wife, 2 x 0.5W is the max power, what I need...
I also want to keep the PCB as small as possible.My question is: What is your recommendation for that? Are there any comparable quality small power chips to the ICEpower, Hypex, ....?
I was looking around on Analog Devices's pages and found SSM3302.
It is small 2 x 10W amplifier and it has very good parameters (on paper). Do anyone have any real life experiences about this chip?
The other thing is it's packaging: Isn't it too much painful to solder it?
I also have seen some AD amp chips with I2S input. What is the preferred solution? Have a separated DAC or an integrated one? I feel a separated could be more flexible... I mean easier to change, if I don't like? Any experiences about this?
"Audiophile Grade" and "Class D" don't often end up in the same sentence. In general Audiophiles tend to shun the newer technology finding all sorts of bizarre reasons for their rejections... In my experience Class D amps are every bit as good as the entry level audiophile stuff, but at dirt cheap prices. There are audiophile grade clsss D amps out there, of course but the prices would choke a race horse.
All that said, if you're looking for lower powered amps, there are some excellent products out there. Look for single boards or even complete amps with the TPA3116D2 chips on them. Generally this will get you to 50+50 watts at 4 ohms or about 35+35 on 8. You can also look for the TA2020 chip but it's pretty much had it's run.
For the matter of too much power, not to worry, just use the volume control wisely. I have my little Mini-Amp hooked up to a computer. I set the maximum volume on the amplifier then use the computer's volume control to adjust up to that point... works fine and no mad dives for the volume knob.
My 2 cents worth, any class of amplification has its limits and faults that are known, its down to reliability and cost and choice, the lower/ medium budget Chinese kits and modules in my opinion are risky from my experience because of the fake parts. The designs are usually cut down versions with the protection circuits omitted.
Class D amps can be every bit as good as high level audiophile stuff. There, I fixed it for you.
Unless one wants 500 pound amps that perform equally well. Then you need Class A
Yup, there is never too much power/gain. Inline attenuators can be totally neutral and you can have amps that can be used with a variety of speakers.
@Douglas:
Thank you for your answer.
I finally let the SSM3302 project to go away, since it is vital to make a good PCB, because the chip is soo small. I've just amazed, how much expensive are these custom PCBs. I can buy the very cool Breeze 2x50W (3116) amp boxed for only PCB's price...
I started to check the more common boards on ebay. Finally (after reading the lots of discussions, I ordered a pair of TPA3118 for 6$ (both). Will see, what I'll get.
Thank you for your answer.
I finally let the SSM3302 project to go away, since it is vital to make a good PCB, because the chip is soo small. I've just amazed, how much expensive are these custom PCBs. I can buy the very cool Breeze 2x50W (3116) amp boxed for only PCB's price...
I started to check the more common boards on ebay. Finally (after reading the lots of discussions, I ordered a pair of TPA3118 for 6$ (both). Will see, what I'll get.
Trust me on this one ... a $3.00 board is very likely to disappoint you and coming from EBay I would be deeply suspicious of it being made with counterfeit parts and/or a returned board being resold as new. The TPA3118 chip, itself, sells for more than $3.00
Next time, spend a bit more with a more reputable dealer like Amazon or PartsExpress... $20 will buy you a very nice TPA3116 stereo board that lacks only the case... $50 will buy you a ready to use amplifier, complete with power supply.
Next time, spend a bit more with a more reputable dealer like Amazon or PartsExpress... $20 will buy you a very nice TPA3116 stereo board that lacks only the case... $50 will buy you a ready to use amplifier, complete with power supply.
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Of course they can. I have several of the TPA3116 mini-amps here and they all sound really good and a friend has a stack of 3 Crown XLS amps that just blew me away with their high quality sound.
But, in overlapping price ranges there are a lot --and I do mean a lot-- of really bad Class D amps out there with sound quality akin to a cat having a hissy fit.
You just gotta be careful what you pick...
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My 2 1/2 Cent:
There are really bad implementations of good chips, good implementations of not so good chips, good chips done good and good chips in boards that can be modified with acceptable work and parts cost, making them sound good. Maybe mix these options even more up for intermediate combinations. You find it all at eBay and Ali-express.
You may read a lot and consider anything possible, whether your new amp sounds "better" depends mainly on the old one you have.
Only your personal A/B test is what matters in the end.
A few month ago I furnished my new e-workshop and had installed a small, good quality sound system, just to have some music while working. Must say the loudspeakers are very high quality 4" full range. Nice sound, really fun to listen.
At the same time I received a cheap D-amp. Just for a quick check of function I connected it instead of the shop´s renovated 80th amp that I thought was of well acceptable sound quality. Too bad a Santana CD was running in the player.
The difference of the two amps was so huge, I instantly put the old amp in the storage and will never ever listen to it again.
If I had not done this accidental A-B test, I would still be happy listening to the old Japanese Nikko amp, an icon of it´s time. Maybe I retrofit it with a D-amp, because of it´s wonderful design.
See, it is only your situation that counts. Hear nothing better, stay happy.
I have a pair of very nice Class A mono amps, that sound very good, my personal reverence amps. Since I compared them to another D-amp, I do not use them any more. They sound just identical to the D-amp, but use about 300 watt at idle. The D-amps use about 4 watt in the same situation. I have a personal problem with wasting energy for nothing, so I do not like to use my favorite amps any more, just because of the unnecessary power consumption that makes me feel bad.
Even as they are fantastic sounding amps.
A personal decision about better sound...
There are even more, technical things, about the “better sounding” amp, for example the loudspeakers you use, often some are better driven by a special amp than others.
So your question may be impossible to answer.
What we can, in many cases, tell you, is which amp is really bad and should be avoided. Better than nothing, eh?
There are really bad implementations of good chips, good implementations of not so good chips, good chips done good and good chips in boards that can be modified with acceptable work and parts cost, making them sound good. Maybe mix these options even more up for intermediate combinations. You find it all at eBay and Ali-express.
You may read a lot and consider anything possible, whether your new amp sounds "better" depends mainly on the old one you have.
Only your personal A/B test is what matters in the end.
A few month ago I furnished my new e-workshop and had installed a small, good quality sound system, just to have some music while working. Must say the loudspeakers are very high quality 4" full range. Nice sound, really fun to listen.
At the same time I received a cheap D-amp. Just for a quick check of function I connected it instead of the shop´s renovated 80th amp that I thought was of well acceptable sound quality. Too bad a Santana CD was running in the player.
The difference of the two amps was so huge, I instantly put the old amp in the storage and will never ever listen to it again.
If I had not done this accidental A-B test, I would still be happy listening to the old Japanese Nikko amp, an icon of it´s time. Maybe I retrofit it with a D-amp, because of it´s wonderful design.
See, it is only your situation that counts. Hear nothing better, stay happy.
I have a pair of very nice Class A mono amps, that sound very good, my personal reverence amps. Since I compared them to another D-amp, I do not use them any more. They sound just identical to the D-amp, but use about 300 watt at idle. The D-amps use about 4 watt in the same situation. I have a personal problem with wasting energy for nothing, so I do not like to use my favorite amps any more, just because of the unnecessary power consumption that makes me feel bad.
Even as they are fantastic sounding amps.
A personal decision about better sound...
There are even more, technical things, about the “better sounding” amp, for example the loudspeakers you use, often some are better driven by a special amp than others.
So your question may be impossible to answer.
What we can, in many cases, tell you, is which amp is really bad and should be avoided. Better than nothing, eh?
I had done a multilevel version, but did search for good calculation software, I have now a good one, mathPapa.
Problem with the feedback is the fase shifts, and the way a low pas does work, and also fase shift, mine goal was as experiment to use a multilevel amp who do multiply to 1.8Mhz then I can use a very small low pass, but feedback before the filter is some more complecated because of that multilevel.
pics are three level and 5 level.
regards
Problem with the feedback is the fase shifts, and the way a low pas does work, and also fase shift, mine goal was as experiment to use a multilevel amp who do multiply to 1.8Mhz then I can use a very small low pass, but feedback before the filter is some more complecated because of that multilevel.
pics are three level and 5 level.
regards
Attachments
Although I never see it mentioned, the best A/B test is to connect one channel through the old whatever and the other channel through the new googa ... listen for a few days then reverse it and listen again.
For example to A/B patchcords... put the new one on the left channel, keep the old one on the right... listen for a week or so... reverse it... listen again... then make your decision. If there is a real difference, you'll still hear it at the end of the test period.
I use the same concept for amplifiers, speaker wire, whatever. This gives you a live, real time, chance to hear any significant improvements or losses...
And, yes, @Turbowatch2, when I found some good class D stuff, I never once contemplated going back to the bad old A and A/B days. As it stands right now Class D can provide excellent sound quality for under $100 (cdn) if you don't need monster power. (And most people don't) But, once you get past the chip-amps the price does tend to escalate rather quickly.
@ghitus ... Currently my main system, in my living room, is running on a Senucn A502, which is also being sold as the Dilvpoetry V50 but with a 19volt supply. (The TPA3116 is happiest on 24 volts)
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It is a direct and real time comparison between two things that happens during ordinary use of your system.
If there is a difference significant enough to be worth notice, you will hear it.
One side will sound better than the other.
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Ah ok, I somehow missed that the conversation was on chips. I meant amplifiers based on NCore or Purifi modules - those match high end sonically without the high end price tag. My bad for misunderstanding context.
It's not... we were discussing Class D (or I thought we were)... and some of the chip-amps are really very good, hence the mention.
Yes the higher end stuff like NCore, Purify, IcePower, DriveCore, etc. are almost all excellent amplifiers.
I don't think you misunderstood anything... I just spoke more broadly about the Class when the question about lower powered amps came up.
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You'd better mix each signal down to mono before doing that comparison! Most of the sound colouration comes from the speakers and the room (thus headphones are much preferable for comparative listening tests, unless its comparing loudspeakers(!))
You can at least with 2 different signals go up to each speaker in turn and listen carefully without so much room acoustic effect. Best to test with a single mono signal first that the speakers sound the same.
The best way to do any audio testing is blind, because expectation bias is a far bigger effect than 0.1% distortion on audio perception! An automated AB test box presents a randomized A/B pair of outputs, you listen, switching over to your hearts content until you decide which is best, and only then get told which was which. Volume has to be accurately matched because there's a strong preference for the louder signal. Bass roll-off differences are fairly noticable as they affect bass volume which is important to emotional impact.
Good amplifiers with flat response across the audible range and low distortion should compare alike in blind conditions, unless there's excess noise, RF breakthrough or clipping or some such. The difference between left and right speakers is greater than most quality amps, since speaker mechanicals are harder to make matched than electronics, and rooms aren't usually highly symmetrical.
You can at least with 2 different signals go up to each speaker in turn and listen carefully without so much room acoustic effect. Best to test with a single mono signal first that the speakers sound the same.
The best way to do any audio testing is blind, because expectation bias is a far bigger effect than 0.1% distortion on audio perception! An automated AB test box presents a randomized A/B pair of outputs, you listen, switching over to your hearts content until you decide which is best, and only then get told which was which. Volume has to be accurately matched because there's a strong preference for the louder signal. Bass roll-off differences are fairly noticable as they affect bass volume which is important to emotional impact.
Good amplifiers with flat response across the audible range and low distortion should compare alike in blind conditions, unless there's excess noise, RF breakthrough or clipping or some such. The difference between left and right speakers is greater than most quality amps, since speaker mechanicals are harder to make matched than electronics, and rooms aren't usually highly symmetrical.
Yep, there are flaws in any testing system Mark.
But it's been my experience that long term listening is far more credible than a series of 30 second clips. One needs to assess an amplifier, or even a lowly patch cord, longitudinally and with varying sources to really know. (That is, you need time for the Confirmation Bias to wear off).
The matters of speaker and room differences are why you reverse the channels and spend some more time listening. If there is a REAL difference you will notice that it's flipped channels and you will still hear it at the end of the second listening period.
You might be surprised how many initial differences, that seem apparent in switched AB tests, simply fade away with longitudinal listening, especially with familiar sources.
Moreover, it is, I think, a serious error to confuse listening tests with science. This ain't that...
But it's been my experience that long term listening is far more credible than a series of 30 second clips. One needs to assess an amplifier, or even a lowly patch cord, longitudinally and with varying sources to really know. (That is, you need time for the Confirmation Bias to wear off).
The matters of speaker and room differences are why you reverse the channels and spend some more time listening. If there is a REAL difference you will notice that it's flipped channels and you will still hear it at the end of the second listening period.
You might be surprised how many initial differences, that seem apparent in switched AB tests, simply fade away with longitudinal listening, especially with familiar sources.
Moreover, it is, I think, a serious error to confuse listening tests with science. This ain't that...
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