I know Anand, what's a man to do? I took it as an opportunity to try a mini Alpeh at a very reasonable price. It's really to compare against other amplifiers i have and to tinker with it.
Making me feel guilty about using it now
Making me feel guilty about using it now
That's a mini Aleph by the way, the builder gives details here:
http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eB...437&category=122649&pm=1&ds=0&t=1492007598516
I personally have a problem with the flagrant profiteering of Pass' work on Epay
Best,
Anand.
Don't feel guilty!Making me feel guilty about using it now
IMO:
1) You have no guarantee that the circuit and components are actually as described, until you have the amp in hand! (so there may be differences from 'the original', just as in many of the Pass amp variants described here). Measure the output into a dummy load with a 1kHz sine input after you get it; I'd be pretty surprised if it's cranking out 20 wpc in class A with those heatsinks, but they may be larger than they seem in the pictures.
2) People get excited about eBay sellers but seem to have no problem with PCB and 'semi-kit' vendors here at diyaudio. I wonder why that is?
3) See how far you will get on accumulating the parts for a mini-Aleph for 200UKP, and that will put the 'profiteering' into perspective.
4)Nelson Pass wouldn't have released his schematics for public use if he was really concerned about this, though I realize that the 'release' was to the diy community, not commercial companies.
Are you still set on the Hiraga for your 'from parts' build, or are you being seduced by the Pass amps?
I found my preamp!
http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage/reviews/15038
I basically use this now to power my AKG's but now i can use it as a preamp!
Those PASS Amps are crazy, but my mind is set on The Hiraga. Thought this would be the perfect start to my first ever Class A build.
Don't worry, when i receive that amp i will be taking a look inside it, and blasting some frequencies through it and measuring it with my scope.
You know as well as i do you can't build a Higara let alone a PASS amp for £200. I mean so far the heatsinks have cost me £50, the boards from jimaudio will cost a further £80 or so on.
http://www.head-fi.org/products/matrix-m-stage/reviews/15038
I basically use this now to power my AKG's but now i can use it as a preamp!
Those PASS Amps are crazy, but my mind is set on The Hiraga. Thought this would be the perfect start to my first ever Class A build.
Don't worry, when i receive that amp i will be taking a look inside it, and blasting some frequencies through it and measuring it with my scope.
You know as well as i do you can't build a Higara let alone a PASS amp for £200. I mean so far the heatsinks have cost me £50, the boards from jimaudio will cost a further £80 or so on.
Don't feel guilty!
IMO:
1) You have no guarantee that the circuit and components are actually as described, until you have the amp in hand! (so there may be differences from 'the original', just as in many of the Pass amp variants described here). Measure the output into a dummy load with a 1kHz sine input after you get it; I'd be pretty surprised if it's cranking out 20 wpc in class A with those heatsinks, but they may be larger than they seem in the pictures.
2) People get excited about eBay sellers but seem to have no problem with PCB and 'semi-kit' vendors here at diyaudio. I wonder why that is?
3) See how far you will get on accumulating the parts for a mini-Aleph for 200UKP, and that will put the 'profiteering' into perspective.
4)Nelson Pass wouldn't have released his schematics for public use if he was really concerned about this, though I realize that the 'release' was to the diy community, not commercial companies.
Are you still set on the Hiraga for your 'from parts' build, or are you being seduced by the Pass amps?
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Yes. I wasn't criticizing you at all. I was trying to deflate Anand's comment about 'flagrant profiteering' on the part of that seller.
Actually, I can't figure out how those Chinese sellers can charge so little (including shipping, sometimes) for many items. (I do know that the shipping is government subsidized, and some parts may be forgeries, but still...) Who is the 'profiteer', the Chinese eBay seller with the 20 banana plugs for a dollar, or my local 'Canadian' electronics store where I can buy two of the same banana plugs in a bubble pack for $3.98 ?
For that Aleph copy you have bought, add up the prices for the components from our favourite diy supply sources, and the price would probably treble (at least).
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Good idea. You may find the Aleph and Hiraga won't need a preamp, but it's nice to have options.
I have a few similar headphone amp/preamp/dac boxes - they sound just fine to me....
But, such admissions only open me up to comments about 'poor quality' in my system components .....
Gotta stick to 'audiophile approved' stuff all the way!!
As one of the "semi-kit vendors here", I support Anand's statement. It's one thing to licence the circuit from its designer and produce it for a profit. It's a completely different story to download a schematic from a vendor and use it for profit without paying a licensing fee. It's intellectual property theft no matter how you twist and turn it. I find it interesting how most people can figure out that stealing a candy bar at the store is wrong, but still believe that stealing someone's intellectual property is somehow OK.
I'm trying to make a living selling high-end circuits. I took a ~75 % pay cut from my engineering job to do this. I don't regret doing that but it does make me wonder why it is OK to rip me off? I don't quite follow that logic.
Some will argue that "he published the schematic, so he invited copycats". That may be true. Sadly, that will also mean that "semi-kit vendors" like me won't release the schematics. I am even considering not releasing the schematics with the design documentation as it's just too easy to rip me off that way. That's super unfortunate as many DIYers use my products as a learning experience and learn a lot from the schematics along with the circuit description I provide.
In the end, supporting the copycats will turn DIY audio into a business where you buy a module and get instructions for which wire goes where and that's it. No more schematics or BOMs. No more learning. Maybe no more DIY as being an OEM module vendor would be rather more profitable at that point.
Just saying... Careful what you wish for. You might get it.
Tom
I'm trying to make a living selling high-end circuits. I took a ~75 % pay cut from my engineering job to do this. I don't regret doing that but it does make me wonder why it is OK to rip me off? I don't quite follow that logic.
Some will argue that "he published the schematic, so he invited copycats". That may be true. Sadly, that will also mean that "semi-kit vendors" like me won't release the schematics. I am even considering not releasing the schematics with the design documentation as it's just too easy to rip me off that way. That's super unfortunate as many DIYers use my products as a learning experience and learn a lot from the schematics along with the circuit description I provide.
In the end, supporting the copycats will turn DIY audio into a business where you buy a module and get instructions for which wire goes where and that's it. No more schematics or BOMs. No more learning. Maybe no more DIY as being an OEM module vendor would be rather more profitable at that point.
Just saying... Careful what you wish for. You might get it.
Tom
I'm extremely curious to know the licensing fees paid to Nelson Pass by the diyaudio store, BrianGT (chipamp.com) and ZenMod (Babelfish), and others, but I don't think that information is public, if the amount paid is more than zero. I also think -perhaps mistakenly- that Nelson Pass doesn't expect fees for those designs he has released to 'the public'. AFAIK, Pass isn't producing the Aleph any more and isn't selling PCBs or kits either. And, I'd be surprised if the eBay vendor is using any hard-to-find parts that may have been specified in the 'original' schematic.
And, do the developers of 'new' designs pay money to the designers (or the estates of designers) who went before them? Show me a 'completely new and unique' circuit - they are very rare. Most are variants on established designs in some way.
"Standing on the shoulders of giants" etc etc...
e.g. Maida regulator
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Tom i can sympathize with your concerns, i consider myself lucky that as a hobby like diyaudio builds, i can find a community of like minded enthusiasts with the ability to share knowledge and advice.
This will be my first time building a Class A amplifier, over the last month or so i have been searching the internet on popular diy kits with a good resource of information and documents to help me.
For me it seemed very easy to find all the different schematics, forum builds on many amplifiers i.e Jean Hiraga, PASS LABS aleph designs etc. So yes it would be easy to copy, design, change and make your own amps to sell IMO.
It would be nice if vendors abroad were honest and paid a licensing fee, intellectual property is a mine field.
That being said i must admit i didn't think that when i bought the amplifier. All i thought was it seems like a good design and at a very good price. For all i know it might be rubbish.
And again i guess i am taking the easy route by buying module kits all ready to go, i don't know any better and just think that's the route to go! I am in it for the learning experience, and it is proving to be just that.
Anyway, if that is what you do for a living i am happy to support that. Can you help assist me in my Jean Hiraga Super 30w build? If you do sell circuits for this particular build, schematics and instructions i will use you and buy some bits.
Good Luck
V
This will be my first time building a Class A amplifier, over the last month or so i have been searching the internet on popular diy kits with a good resource of information and documents to help me.
For me it seemed very easy to find all the different schematics, forum builds on many amplifiers i.e Jean Hiraga, PASS LABS aleph designs etc. So yes it would be easy to copy, design, change and make your own amps to sell IMO.
It would be nice if vendors abroad were honest and paid a licensing fee, intellectual property is a mine field.
That being said i must admit i didn't think that when i bought the amplifier. All i thought was it seems like a good design and at a very good price. For all i know it might be rubbish.
And again i guess i am taking the easy route by buying module kits all ready to go, i don't know any better and just think that's the route to go! I am in it for the learning experience, and it is proving to be just that.
Anyway, if that is what you do for a living i am happy to support that. Can you help assist me in my Jean Hiraga Super 30w build? If you do sell circuits for this particular build, schematics and instructions i will use you and buy some bits.
Good Luck
V
Hi Tom,
Really, as soon as you sell those products, your IP is out in the wild. Ripping a design off is easier with the product rather than a service manual. With the product you get all the parts that were used - exactly the same parts. All wiring and component placement, plus ECOs that were required and acted on.
I have a huge problem with people ripping off IP, but I also have a strong belief that service manuals should all be stored in a central repository too. Your customer shouldn't be out because the vendor went out of business, or they think that customers should be forced to buy new. On the flip side of that, only technicians and electronics engineers should have access to that collection. What the public has access to right now wouldn't change, but this would prevent equipment hitting the scrap heap.
In addition, items for sale should have some minimum level of build quality before being offered for sale here. The entire lead solder issue isn't a problem really. It would help a lot if equipment was not allowed to be trashed, but rather be available to hobbyists, students and technicians for rebuild and education. By the same token, techs should have to pass tests on workmanship and knowledge. I normally wouldn't want a governing body, but the amount of damage technicians cause per year is staggering.
-Chris
Really, as soon as you sell those products, your IP is out in the wild. Ripping a design off is easier with the product rather than a service manual. With the product you get all the parts that were used - exactly the same parts. All wiring and component placement, plus ECOs that were required and acted on.
I have a huge problem with people ripping off IP, but I also have a strong belief that service manuals should all be stored in a central repository too. Your customer shouldn't be out because the vendor went out of business, or they think that customers should be forced to buy new. On the flip side of that, only technicians and electronics engineers should have access to that collection. What the public has access to right now wouldn't change, but this would prevent equipment hitting the scrap heap.
In addition, items for sale should have some minimum level of build quality before being offered for sale here. The entire lead solder issue isn't a problem really. It would help a lot if equipment was not allowed to be trashed, but rather be available to hobbyists, students and technicians for rebuild and education. By the same token, techs should have to pass tests on workmanship and knowledge. I normally wouldn't want a governing body, but the amount of damage technicians cause per year is staggering.
-Chris
You do see how inconsistent these two ideas are??
No service manuals or tech info for the hoi polloi, but equipment should be available to hobbyists for rebuild ?
Hi VictoriaGuy,
No, not really. Many manufacturers will not release service until their model is out of warranty. That's fine. This wouldn't change.
My suggestion would be compelled by law. It would represent a massive improvements in the availability of service information required to keep equipment out of the garbage dump. It represents the minimum availability of service information, not the maximum. Hobbyists would have increased exposure to service information.
-Chris
No, not really. Many manufacturers will not release service until their model is out of warranty. That's fine. This wouldn't change.
My suggestion would be compelled by law. It would represent a massive improvements in the availability of service information required to keep equipment out of the garbage dump. It represents the minimum availability of service information, not the maximum. Hobbyists would have increased exposure to service information.
-Chris
In terms of IP, honestly, there isn't anything you can do. And amplifier designs are easy now anyway, with more than enough schematics going around the wiring can be figured out too. If I design a circuit and put a schematic out, I expect people to use it. The thing I offer over the mass produced thing is the hand created wood work, so the finish. In other words, the same schematic must have a better product, if you want to keep your market.
Never mind the actual layout and parts used. Too many variables to clone a product with just a little documentation. Worrying about this is a straw man. Once you've sold your first one of whatever it is, you have released everything about your IP out into the world. Too late to worry about your design being stolen.
I think we have to become responsible about how customers are treated. Once they buy something, it's up to them how long they have it, not to the manufacturer! Are you hearing this Micro$oft?? And if a product is shoddily assembled, it shouldn't be allowed to be on the market. Something of a minimum quality that must be met. This applies to software as well (Micro$oft, I'm talking to you again too). The firmware coded into microcontrollers also count. BTW, software engineers will be responsible for their code soon if not right now. That's a long time overdue. They make a product the same as anyone else.
-Chris
I think we have to become responsible about how customers are treated. Once they buy something, it's up to them how long they have it, not to the manufacturer! Are you hearing this Micro$oft?? And if a product is shoddily assembled, it shouldn't be allowed to be on the market. Something of a minimum quality that must be met. This applies to software as well (Micro$oft, I'm talking to you again too). The firmware coded into microcontrollers also count. BTW, software engineers will be responsible for their code soon if not right now. That's a long time overdue. They make a product the same as anyone else.
-Chris
It's only the entertainment industry 
Not like making shoes for children's feet 
scottjoplin, it's not really reinventing the wheel, it's using it in different combinations. All music is music, and yet there are essentially 8 notes. Keeping with the analogy, music changes as time passes. Electronics are a couple of mathematical building blocks, and in the genre of audio, there is a seemingly endless demand for something different. You would think that by now the audio amplifier was a done and dusted black box, yet new products are continuously coming to market. I love this hobby!
The main thing that seems to preoccupy the amp designers now is harmonic distortion, second harmonic is ok cuz it's in musical scale, 7th is a big no-no Avoiding the 7th harmonic for the opposite reason..........did anybody tell the birds??.......
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