IME you've got that completely ar*e over t*ts.
If you try to fill a large room with bass from small speakers you get mush, provided the little things don't run out of Xmax and go into thermal meltdown.
You'll also get vast amounts of distortion. The current small darling of the audiophile press, the KEF LS50, produces 10%THD at 100Hz even at low volumes.
But, also IME, many people mistake a lack of low bass and high distortion for tight, 'fast' bass. They are very, very wrong and probably have never heard a good and adequately sized, low-distortion system.
As my previous post mentioned, I'm not interested in wallowing bass - my last couple of experiences of such were of a sound that was so out of balance, and so unlike the 'real' thing - it's of zero value to me. I much prefer the bass to be absent, then to be there and of poor quality ...
The sort of bass I like can be found on Boney M tracks - tremendous punch when it comes out right - and another favourite is a live version of "Crossroads", with Jack Bruce pumping the groove ferociously hard just a little back from the centre -- the latter just doesn't work at all, the bass energy goes completely missing, unless the system is firing ...
The sort of bass I like can be found on Boney M tracks - tremendous punch when it comes out right - and another favourite is a live version of "Crossroads", with Jack Bruce pumping the groove ferociously hard just a little back from the centre -- the latter just doesn't work at all, the bass energy goes completely missing, unless the system is firing ...
You're right Dave although I think origin of K-horn design dates before WWII.I was referring only to mid-bass bin . It would need subwoofer below , some form of upper-bass from 200-1K and another 2 channels after that making it effectively 5 ways. Unlike you, I would choose horns anytime I could fit proper 4-5 channel system. They are just different reality. With good horns and restricted bandwidth there is no coloration and no direct radiation system can approach them on dynamic contrast ability. Also with proper in the room positioning horns create images and soundstage like nothing else. It is a costly topology (although DIY and careful shopping will get you there for relatively modest outlay) and takes up a lot of space but in my opinion properly done it's an ultimate in speaker design.
If it comes to fast bass and small bass drivers. I think low and very low bass by it's nature is SLOW.
Public in general rarely experience really low bass in PA amplified music concerts. The bass is high passed and there is nothing below 60hz -hence the popular love for "fast bass". Only movie goers get rattled by farts and explosions of subsonic nature
What I'd like to have in the future dream home is that effortless wave of low ,low frequency sensation hitting you while in orchestra hall .You feel submerged in low frequencies but they are free and not dominating the rest of instruments.Regards, L
PS sorry for double posting .
Okay, but hardly what I would call a tweak (keeping one section for a 5 way)!
I have still had better luck with direct radiators.
Much of this really depends on personal listening preferences. I seldom exceed middle loud (my wife plays louder as she cranks up the tunes to work around the house) and I don't get any fatigue from any of my current systems (Snell XA Reference in living room, XA75 in media room). They are just loafing along. Others may need the extra output capibility of horns.
Thats why these conversations are so frequently troubling to me. We try to make univesrsal truths from our particular circumstances and observations.
David
Well , it's not so much for extra output capability of horns as for the type of sound they project even in low or mid volumes. I have nothing against direct radiators. Everything in the hands of the listener to configure the system fulfilling the needs without having unreasonable expectations from given topology /implementation. Guess it's time to get back on topic
Make no mistake here, I do mean a few tweaks would put the Khorn at the top of the heap in more situations than the vast majority. And I think it was originally produced 1947, though there have been many driver and horn tweaks in house.
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I was thinking of the one you are most likely to see, with the Atlas and EV horns rather than the early versions (by the way, the early version was quite close to a modern CD flare, much like the initial white EV CD types. Klipsch rejected it because it beamed less on axis and looked like it had lost response!)
David S.
Have heard several Khorns and can attest they do sound good, but have their fair share of issues too. What they do right is nice, but since then there has been little improvement on the design. If they were minor issues most likely would have been found and integrated into the design by now I would think. 60+ years is enough No?
Ohhh the ebb and flow, that 2 steps forward and 3 steps back followed by Oops lets fix this to compensate for the marketing/designer thoughts were corrected. Often not, gotta buy next years latest greatest to find out!
Now multiply that by decades of disinformation by marketing depts of the giants in consumer audio and here we are today.I think far better off, we have the tools today to challenge all those hypothesis's being catered as fact. Now multiply that by the thousands of us, who can in a group, each having a nitch of knowledge specific to this and that, have far more clearer explanation of every aspect of the design incorporating it all to achieve as close to perfection as can be for any given situation.
I'm sure many can relate to hearing others ramble on about either their own or a friends awesome BOSE system, Uggg Another observation have made is when they mention 901's... those have actually been in storage for years
Absolutely. Also see my post here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/120847-what-causes-listening-fatigue-56.html#post3582097
Don't see why, since a simple adjustment of a couple eq control parameters should have put that all straight. IAC, the problems with red book I've experienced have typically had little or nothing to do with it having 'too much' high end. The same issues would presumably have existed with high definition digital which did not elicit such comments regarding their mastering.
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This is what good audio is all about -- however, some people believe that this is a 'magic' performed by horns, and by horns only - wrong! Horns just make it much easier to achieve with conventional ancilliaries, the gear in the electronic chain - they give you a major head start.
The direct radiators will do it just as well, but a lot of more effort, and cleverness is needed in the sorting of the electronic side to make it happen. An analogy is doing a quarter mile run - one car with a massive, lazy, unrefined V8, the other with twin turbocharged, fully tweaked, 'tiny' 4 cylinder engine -- which is the 'better' car ?!
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So true, so true. Look at what the old adage was, that driver sounds best on this horn or this on that, switch diaphrams to something else turns out to be more of an issue with matching the exit angle and limiting that angle of 8° (something like that) and the driver design itself ie not the horn per se.
2" Beryllium domes TAD driver all the rage, with more coming on the horizon. Slap on an Azura, JMLC, EJMMLC Horn and your golden (to a certain degree, you know, within limits), covering a range of 650- 10k seamlessly and effortlessly.
2" Beryllium domes TAD driver all the rage, with more coming on the horizon. Slap on an Azura, JMLC, EJMMLC Horn and your golden (to a certain degree, you know, within limits), covering a range of 650- 10k seamlessly and effortlessly.
*sigh*.
No.
The amp cannot compensate for the high distortion, lack of dynamic range/max displacement, or compression artifacts inherent to small direct radiator speakers. I know you're proud of the mods you've done but you're spewing nonsense.... again.
At what distance, frequency, roomsize?
I went through this already with another fellow who claimed he could get 108+ from a 4" at 150hz.
Physics don't respond to tweaking.
Me either, but they were, guess they couldn't believe they didn't have to EQ as much. Trust me the high end was fcd on many many cds, yes way too "crispy
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