By large, you will have less "fatigue" with soft paper cones, but you will also not hear lots of the detail that would be present in a good system. I've been satisfied with Bose 301 for a few years.critofur said:
Hmm, I needed music more back then when my life was more stressful, it was like therapy. Now, it's something I miss and long for, a distant memory.
What are the odds that a cheap simple two way system with a 1st order crosover would be transient perfect?
I used to like most good systems that I heard years ago (anything that wasn't the super-cheap one way 5 watt K-mart special P.O.S. speaker, basically - do you know, the ones with the FAKE tweeters?)
The only recent (well, maybe not recent anymore) speakers I liked much were the Madrigal Revel Salon Ultimas. I have to go audition a bunch of new speakers again, it's been several years... I thought those B&O Beolab fancy flying saucer looking speakers were going to be great, I left the store very disapointed.
-----------------
I'm a skeptic, I can't stand hearing BS about expensive cables, "high end" capacitors, indcutors, etc... Maybe where I am not being objective is this notion I have that it must be complex crossovers that ruin everything, that, a "good design" is one where the crossover has no more than a few components. I also suspect that if a speaker can't reproduce a square wave, then, our brain must be going nuts trying to process the unatural mutation of sound coming out of speakers where the music has been twisted into some kind of alien sounds that sound just about right, but are yet somehow "not right" as the inductors mutilate the phase.
CDs more clearly capture flaws, CDs can more easily have too much treble mixed in compared to vinyl or cassette tapes.
When I used a cheap pair of two way rectangular box medium size "bookshelf" (I put them on a shelf most of the time, anyway) speakers which had one 8 inch paper cone and one paper cone/aluminum dustcap tweeter with no more than a few parts in the crossover (might have been only two, I can't remember exactly) I NEVER felt like my ears were tired, I never had need of this phrase "listening fatigue".
If someone had said "listening fatigue" to me back then, I would have answered "huh, is that some kind of strange military uniform you wear when you listen to music" -or- "do you mean you're tired of hearing your wife nagging" BUT, I would not have associated that idea with listening to music on a stereo because it wouldn't have made sense to me based on my experiences listening to stereos.
I would have to guess that my speakers had distortion, that the freq. response was not particularly flat. Whether played loud or soft, the music was fun. It didn't fool me into believing that the instruments were actually right there in the room. I didn't care about "imaging" and the notion of a "sweet spot" never occured to me. Didn't matter at all where I was in the room, sounded good (by good, I mean fun and pleasing to hear, accurate enough that I never felt like saying "this sounds like ****" as I do when I hear rumbling ghetto blaster SUVs roll down the road)
I seems like there are a few factors here: the source material - vinyl records and cassette tapes, the amp - a 2 channel Dyna tube amp, and the speakers - simple two way paper driver boxes.
But another thing to consider is, most of the systems I listened to in those years were pleasing to hear - my dad's Magnapan Tympany 1D, my neighbor's Onkyo Integra setup, etc... There were lots of stereo systems back then that didn't give one the feeling of tiredness or irritation from listening for more than just a few minutes.
Even a cheap record player playing records that weren't in the best shape could still bring me music that brought pleasure, made me smile and close my eyes to enjoy the music. Todays systems mostly make me: sit up, frown, open my eyes, and wonder "is there something wrong with me? because this just isn't pleasant to hear and the salesman would have you believe these speakers belong on Gold pedestals with diamonds, and that the cables feeding them should be 3 inches thick with special secret "black boxes" on either end...
Re: Some possible causes
Especially the first point, enclosure resonances, is important for me too. If i hear a speaker that is new to me, i tend to pardon
its resonances for a while. When listening longer with a certain
speaker, resonances tend to bother me.
What is interesting to me, you said explicitly "enclosure
resonances".
Are those worse than e.g. cone breakup modes ?
Why ?
Another point:
Poor performance at low signal levels.
If there is a lack of detail and dynamic one may be tempted to
listen too loud to "get the details" or "the feeling", after a while
you have got enough ...
To me there are 2 typical speaker characters which cause
listening fatigue: The "nasty" speaker and the "dull" speaker.
The "nasty" one is uncultivated and simply too defective.
The "dull" one has bad resolution at low levels, maybe parameters shift too much with signal level, maybe damping materials act in a nonlinear manner, ...
The "dull" character is more dangerous, because fatigue is
not introduced by the speaker's traits itself but by affecting
our listening habits in the long term ...
---
Of cause a bad program source leads to listening fatigue.
e.g. there are few CD Players offering homogeneity and
detail without getting sharp or nasty ...
Has someone a tip out there concerning current CD/DVD players ?
Nikolas Ojala said:
Especially the first point, enclosure resonances, is important for me too. If i hear a speaker that is new to me, i tend to pardon
its resonances for a while. When listening longer with a certain
speaker, resonances tend to bother me.
What is interesting to me, you said explicitly "enclosure
resonances".
Are those worse than e.g. cone breakup modes ?
Why ?
Another point:
Poor performance at low signal levels.
If there is a lack of detail and dynamic one may be tempted to
listen too loud to "get the details" or "the feeling", after a while
you have got enough ...
To me there are 2 typical speaker characters which cause
listening fatigue: The "nasty" speaker and the "dull" speaker.
The "nasty" one is uncultivated and simply too defective.
The "dull" one has bad resolution at low levels, maybe parameters shift too much with signal level, maybe damping materials act in a nonlinear manner, ...
The "dull" character is more dangerous, because fatigue is
not introduced by the speaker's traits itself but by affecting
our listening habits in the long term ...
---
Of cause a bad program source leads to listening fatigue.
e.g. there are few CD Players offering homogeneity and
detail without getting sharp or nasty ...
Has someone a tip out there concerning current CD/DVD players ?
critofur said:
I don't know if something in me has changed now that I'm old compared to when I was 20-something and before, I loved listening to all kinds of music even on my cheap-o bookshelf speakers. Now, each time I try, it's not pleasant, I end up giving up quickly and turning it off.
I suffer a little from migraine and often it can be brought on by loud noise. If I play my electric guitar fairly loud that can start it off. I also find the same with bright lights.
I run a disco which sort of has loud noises and bright lights !!!
Listening to something and telling myself I should like it because it's been declared "good" by people who know more than I do. OTOH, I can listen to what I really like on just about any system and derive pleasure from it.
A dip is usually better than a peak (especially if it's French onion), and the two system related things that bring on fatigue for me are peaks in the bass anyplace that affects the vocals.
A dip is usually better than a peak (especially if it's French onion), and the two system related things that bring on fatigue for me are peaks in the bass anyplace that affects the vocals.
Conrad Hoffman said:
A lot depends on your point of view.
Many Hi Fi enthusiasts look for perfect reproduction.
Myself as a guitarist I spend a fortune on equipment to distort the signal ! Chorus, phaser, flanger, compression, wah wah etc etc
In fact many guitarist love the sound of a valve amp overdriving.
An interesting thread. Here is my 20c worth:
1. I had a hearing test two years ago and found I am extra 'sensitive' to frequencies around 2000hz. If you had a hearing test, it might identify anomolies you are unaware of.
2. My dad was a mad hifi nut for 30 years. Now at age 65 he doesnt listen to anything, ever. He advised me to 'enjoy the hobby while you can, it doesnt last forever'. When I asked him why, he said he now 'enjoys the silence'. Is this the final hifi nirvana? Is this because years of listener fatigue have finally set in?
3. Home theatre has added low bass back into our lives. I still think most of the subs are bloated and one note. But then when you then go to listen to music, you want more 'bass'. So you turn it up on your hifi system which causes fatigue
4. Stereophile have been discussing the lack of 'quiet passages' in the recording mix of CD's in recent times. Aparently the levels of some frequencies are 'boosted' to give the impression of more presence. This could cause the fatigue you speak of.
Good luck in your search for the truth!
1. I had a hearing test two years ago and found I am extra 'sensitive' to frequencies around 2000hz. If you had a hearing test, it might identify anomolies you are unaware of.
2. My dad was a mad hifi nut for 30 years. Now at age 65 he doesnt listen to anything, ever. He advised me to 'enjoy the hobby while you can, it doesnt last forever'. When I asked him why, he said he now 'enjoys the silence'. Is this the final hifi nirvana? Is this because years of listener fatigue have finally set in?
3. Home theatre has added low bass back into our lives. I still think most of the subs are bloated and one note. But then when you then go to listen to music, you want more 'bass'. So you turn it up on your hifi system which causes fatigue
4. Stereophile have been discussing the lack of 'quiet passages' in the recording mix of CD's in recent times. Aparently the levels of some frequencies are 'boosted' to give the impression of more presence. This could cause the fatigue you speak of.
Good luck in your search for the truth!
The volume (how loud, not how big) issue is tough - if I listen to my friend playing a cello in a not so big room, it must be quite loud, at times, but I never feel that it hurts my ears.
In order to produce the same "feeling" of the music on a stereo, the volume has to be turned up so high that I fear for my ears reduced lifespan indeed.
Is it a matter of drasticly compressed dynamic range?
I like listening in a car because I can get that "feeling" of the music in such a small space, I can have the bass as high as I want.
In order to produce the same "feeling" of the music on a stereo, the volume has to be turned up so high that I fear for my ears reduced lifespan indeed.
Is it a matter of drasticly compressed dynamic range?
I like listening in a car because I can get that "feeling" of the music in such a small space, I can have the bass as high as I want.
IMO, the main cause of listener fatigue.....GUILT! 
You know you should be doing something else! From homework to something for work in the morning to something you promised your wife you would be finished with 2 days ago. It's just your concious annoying you more than the sound.
OK, maybe this is only a partial reason.
I agree that the source media is probably the biggest culprit, at least lately. Also if 9 out of 10 speakers are bad, the problem is most likely further upstream. The one that sounded OK was probably just overly (void in details) forgiving!
Don't assume that just because you are in a high-end stereo store that they have a clue on what they are doing! Thay are looking at a microcosm when recommending. Rarely do they have the attention to detail and experience to sell something that is balanced end to end or will compliment your system in a positive way when replacing one component at a time (hopefully your weakest)!
Life is turning into ADD at 100 MPH lately from every direction and this behaviour seems to be glorified (especially in the media).
IMHO, Less is more, but not where the world is heading today!
Regards//Keith
You know you should be doing something else! From homework to something for work in the morning to something you promised your wife you would be finished with 2 days ago. It's just your concious annoying you more than the sound.
OK, maybe this is only a partial reason.
I agree that the source media is probably the biggest culprit, at least lately. Also if 9 out of 10 speakers are bad, the problem is most likely further upstream. The one that sounded OK was probably just overly (void in details) forgiving!
Don't assume that just because you are in a high-end stereo store that they have a clue on what they are doing! Thay are looking at a microcosm when recommending. Rarely do they have the attention to detail and experience to sell something that is balanced end to end or will compliment your system in a positive way when replacing one component at a time (hopefully your weakest)!
Life is turning into ADD at 100 MPH lately from every direction and this behaviour seems to be glorified (especially in the media).
IMHO, Less is more, but not where the world is heading today!
Regards//Keith
The 'in car' experience likely has something, at least in part, to do with the higher pressures felt in the body bt being in a space much smaller than a typical room.critofur said:
Re compression; most speakers are very compressed sounding, small and artifical sounding to me. Very few can reproduce the weight and body of an instrument at anything approaching the levels many instruments can produce acoustically, with a low enough distortion to convince us it's real. Typical little phile speakers have no hope and then will go on to conpress further dynamically when pushed striving for the correct level.
Some can pull it off reasonably well, but they're few and far between, and far from yer typical phile bookshelf or floorstander.
Can't speak for you Da, but my own experience is now that I'm over 40, I tolerate less noise. I also hate the incessant 'music everywhere' phenomenom that has always been present, but is noticably worse now. I don't need to listened to some processed dross audio wallpaper when I go to the shops and other public places. I nearly go postal at Xmas with the ever annoying carols.adamt said:
I don't have a sound system in my car, never watch TV (watch heaps of movies on DVD), listen to the radio, own or have any desire to own an iPod etc, and when I get into a book, I'm known to wear earplugs. I find the quiet times enhance the enjoyment when I do play music, either in the sweetspot or just wandering around the house.
Silence is golden....
Attachments
I don't agree at all. If an upright bass produces a certain level when I'm in the same room as it (something I get to hear regularly - used as an example), I expect the replay system to to the same, with the same dynamic envelope and tonal structure. That is what I meant, and many, many systems fall apart trying to do something as simple as this.tinitus said:
The main cause of listener fatigue is the loudspeaker.
In the opposite context is the Quad ESL-57. Have you noticed how this loudspeaker never causes listener fatigue, yet is able to convey the loveliness of music with all the inner details that we audiophiles strive for, intact - albeit at its own particular playing level. The Quad is also not affected by the ancillaries attached to it, it takes everything in its stride, harsh cd players, strident cables, rough amplifiers etc ...all sound basically nice through the Quad. I've even hooked up something like a NAD3020 to it and it still sounds nice!
I have a vast collection of tube gear, amps, loudspeakers, drivers, Lowthers, Etons, Raven ribbons, DBX crossovers, etc. I strive to make my DIY speakers sound like the Quad ESL ( a benchmark for me) while at the same time trying to improve on it at the top and bottom frequencies. And, guess what? none of my speaker combinations or the system in general sound fatiguing ...
My suggestion is, sort out your loudspeaker and 98% of your fatigue will go away.
Regards,
Steve M.
System Pics: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182&view
In the opposite context is the Quad ESL-57. Have you noticed how this loudspeaker never causes listener fatigue, yet is able to convey the loveliness of music with all the inner details that we audiophiles strive for, intact - albeit at its own particular playing level. The Quad is also not affected by the ancillaries attached to it, it takes everything in its stride, harsh cd players, strident cables, rough amplifiers etc ...all sound basically nice through the Quad. I've even hooked up something like a NAD3020 to it and it still sounds nice!
I have a vast collection of tube gear, amps, loudspeakers, drivers, Lowthers, Etons, Raven ribbons, DBX crossovers, etc. I strive to make my DIY speakers sound like the Quad ESL ( a benchmark for me) while at the same time trying to improve on it at the top and bottom frequencies. And, guess what? none of my speaker combinations or the system in general sound fatiguing ...
My suggestion is, sort out your loudspeaker and 98% of your fatigue will go away.
Regards,
Steve M.
System Pics: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182&view
Well , as far as I know only audiophools report listening fatigue ."Normal " people never have such a problems simply enjoying the music . That's why the old man is not listening enymore -he's beyond help -can't go back , unable to move along and play the game anymore. This hobby rarely serves the music , actualy more often than not is a killer of musical enjoyment . That's why I enjoy my stock rattling speakers in Honda civic .They don't bother me a bit. My home speakers are far from that. Maybe its time to create Audioholic Anonymus support centers ???
Regards, L
Regards, L
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