Very good question JD. I do not have the answer. Wish I did.
I do "believe" that the 3D soundstage is there on the recording, but most systems don't reveal it. You and I have heard systems that do (I think maybe the same systems). Some folks will say that the system or speakers are fabricating that soundstage. A valid thought, but I don't believe it. If the system were fabricating it, then every recording would have the same, or at least similar sounstage. The remarkable thing is that they do not.
In fact that is one of the things I enjoy most about a great system, it almost like teleportation. You jump from space to space with each recording. A lot of fun!
I do "believe" that the 3D soundstage is there on the recording, but most systems don't reveal it. You and I have heard systems that do (I think maybe the same systems). Some folks will say that the system or speakers are fabricating that soundstage. A valid thought, but I don't believe it. If the system were fabricating it, then every recording would have the same, or at least similar sounstage. The remarkable thing is that they do not.
In fact that is one of the things I enjoy most about a great system, it almost like teleportation. You jump from space to space with each recording. A lot of fun!
Me, too. As much as I loved my ESL line sources, the change to the modified NHT 3.3s brought that out like I never heard before in reproduced music. Unfortunately, it also made artificial reverb and poorly done multimiking painfully obvious.
jkeny- I don't see what you're asking for that wouldn't show up in a waterfall plot plus maybe some directional measurements, typical stuff for any complete loudspeaker review. If there's some aspect related to the associated electronics (more likely an interaction with a specific transducer), that should show up as well. Unfortunately, very few people are equipped to make those measurements in a repeatable way- I know I'm not. IMO, most of the time when these subjectivist vs measurement discussions go on and on it seems like the subjectivists aren't familiar with the breadth of possible measurements and the necessity of evaluating many of them together to reach some reasonably educated conclusion about what's going on. The only progress that will ever be made will be made in that fashion, not by listening followed by never-ending trial and error changes in electrical components.
He was asking specifically about electronic components, not speakers or mike techniques.
Ha! Yes, I know what you mean. That used to bother me, but I got used to it. It's so common. Now I just except it as part of the recording, even enjoy it at times.
Amen to that, brother Conrad!
Well, I'm prepared to be educated & would love to see an analogue plot that clearly shows Jitter, sound stage, instrument timbre, etc - so far none have been forthcoming. I see some disagreement here among the so-called "objectivists" as to whether these sonic attributes are:
- on the recording or not
- are verifiable by measurements
So as I said I'm here to learn something as I hope others are too - please show me the plots, I'm waiting! Otherwise the statement of Sy & others "All that can be heard, can be measured" is false & can be dealt with appropriately?
- on the recording or not
- are verifiable by measurements
So as I said I'm here to learn something as I hope others are too - please show me the plots, I'm waiting! Otherwise the statement of Sy & others "All that can be heard, can be measured" is false & can be dealt with appropriately?
I declined to come back initially because it was rather obvious which way this thread was going:
You were, too me, obviously on a "someone on the internet is wrong and I will fix it if they do as I say" rant followed by some rather insulting comments, why SY to his credit, has ignored.
Why is it so DESPERATELY important that SY shows you the evidence? Why are you still chucking toys out of the pram?
You totally misunderstood his comment about (~) 24hours! This was when the thread started but you claim to have asked for evidence "since ad-infinitum"
I should not have responded to a Troll, nor will do so again here.
Here's one for all you musicians & people who have experience of the live event & it's recording - have you ever compared the acoustics & sound stage of the live event with what was reproduced by the recording of it? Do they match to some extent or are they a complete mirage that depend on the set-up & will therefore change from one set-up to another?
Or maybe this question to SY - you now say that you can hear all this in your ESL & then more-so in your NHTs - you saye "Me, too. As much as I loved my ESL line sources, the change to the modified NHT 3.3s brought that out like I never heard before in reproduced music. ..." Telling you say it brought that out - so it was on the recording to bring out? Not just a mirage?
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this!
Or maybe this question to SY - you now say that you can hear all this in your ESL & then more-so in your NHTs - you saye "Me, too. As much as I loved my ESL line sources, the change to the modified NHT 3.3s brought that out like I never heard before in reproduced music. ..." Telling you say it brought that out - so it was on the recording to bring out? Not just a mirage?
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this!
Well, nobody said that anybody has all the answers. We're searching, and I for one would appreciate any help you can give us
I think looking for plots showing jitter versus soundstage or something like that, that's too naive.
But, to paraphrase several US presidents: make no mistake. ALL audible differences depend, in the last analysis, on both electrical differences at the speaker connectors and on the acoustical differences in speaker responses, and this is measurable. The problem is what to measure and how - waterfall plots? directivity? time domain behaviour? all of the above?
Any inputs from your side?
jd
I'm not asking anybody to do the work for me - I already have measurements of the differences in SPDIF out before & after changes - these were rejected as insufficient & measurements of analogue were called for. I contend that it's not possible to show these sonic characteristics on an analogue measurement & so what is being demanded is impossible. I was hoping that somebody could show that it's possible by giving an example of such plots rather than talking about them! Simple really!
So what I'm asking any objectivist to show the plots & annotate what is the characteristic that's responsible for sound stage, for timbre, etc. If you demand it of me, I need to first see proof that it's possible, otherwise why demand it of me what you can't show yourself?
Last edited:
JKeny: I think you are tilting at windmills. Or perhaps red herrings.
I, for one, do believe that if your modifications change the spdif signal in a significant way, then we will see the results in a measurement of the analog signal. It is the analog signal that matters, isn't it?
So why not measure it? You may be delighted with what you find. I did so on the DCX2496 and was quite pleased with the results.
I, for one, do believe that if your modifications change the spdif signal in a significant way, then we will see the results in a measurement of the analog signal. It is the analog signal that matters, isn't it?
So why not measure it? You may be delighted with what you find. I did so on the DCX2496 and was quite pleased with the results.
Cognitive dissonance meter pegged again.
One more time: I have offered to do the measurements for you on any two pieces of electronics where you have verified listening tests showing any difference in sound. No expense to you (beyond shipping). I'll give you all the annotated plots and graphs you could possibly want.
If you really want the answers and don't just want to argue for the sake of argument, why aren't you jumping on this offer?
Yes I agree & that is the way I wanted to show the fallacy of asking someone to produce before & after analogue measurements to prove that a modification is audible when I & >60 others can hear the difference! Do you understand my line of reasoning? I don't believe it's possible to show these on analogue plots currently!Well, nobody said that anybody has all the answers. We're searching, and I for one would appreciate any help you can give us
I think looking for plots showing jitter versus soundstage or something like that, that's too naive.
Agreed, there has to some difference in the analogue output before & after but I certainly don't know what it is or where to look - I was hoping that guys who live by the rule of "If it can't be measured then it doesn't exist" would have a handle on this? Otherwise, why make the statement when we know that there is no set of measurements yet that can clarify the issue?
Otherwise is this not just a trick being used to ask for the impossible & because it can't be done then denying that there is any change?
Last edited:
Show me it's possible to produce a plot for the effects I mention first & then I will gladly send you the units unmodified & modified. But without this proof that it can be done you will simply say there is no difference becasue your fallible test shows no difference - if you do not understand this, I'm sorry? It is totally in your hands to prove that your test is capable of showing these effects but you fail to do so?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.