Everything and everyone takes the path of least resistance;-)
I suggest simply moving the subwoofers around the room and listening at different positions - including "behind" the mains;-)
Then knock against the box again and compare with the fresh listening experiences;-)
And then tinkling a comment in the forum;-)
I suggest simply moving the subwoofers around the room and listening at different positions - including "behind" the mains;-)
Then knock against the box again and compare with the fresh listening experiences;-)
And then tinkling a comment in the forum;-)
Yeah, knocking is great.
But you could do some measurements to know where wood has it's problem frequencies. And some measurements of the cabinet itself to see if you actually have resonances in the passband of the woofer. Or play some sines in the passband and listen/measure if there are hearable noises from your cabinet.
Then you could show us about it
A woofer housing needs to be STIFF. Get those resonances out of the passband. You can do that with wood perfectly.
When you need it heavier (e.g. decoupling with sylomer pads) put some concrete/stone slabs on it.
(Coincidence frequency of standard wood panels is way out of the range of woofers. So there is no specific material weekness of wood in that area. Brace it as much as you can. And when you want to improve the knock test - use 40-50mm woodpanels)
And the audible differences ... strongly depends on your room and how bad it was before
I always noticed a better distribution through the room with a good multi sub system. And most of the time a more linear response.
But an optimised positioin of a single sub can be better at the listening place as 2 subs put somewhere.
In my trials a good multi sub system was always better as a good single woofer. The difference was always worth it for ME.
I always noticed a better distribution through the room with a good multi sub system. And most of the time a more linear response.
But an optimised positioin of a single sub can be better at the listening place as 2 subs put somewhere.
In my trials a good multi sub system was always better as a good single woofer. The difference was always worth it for ME.
And the audible differences ... strongly depends on your room and how bad it was before
I always noticed a better distribution through the room with a good multi sub system. And most of the time a more linear response.
But an optimised positioin of a single sub can be better at the listening place as 2 subs put somewhere.
In my trials a good multi sub system was always better as a good single woofer. The difference was always worth it for ME.
Yes, the room. I wish I had multiple rooms of the same size, but made from different construction materials, so I can really test what my system can do!
EVERY naked room without an acoustic concept sounds bad. No wall material gives relevant absorption in the 100-10kHz area. So just work with the room you have, use "intelligent" solutions <100Hz (like multisub) and absorption >100Hz and you will hear the music and not the roomchaos.
I'm using a different method of multiple sub integration that isn't supported in available tools, atleast none that I have found. I think it is great, but it seems I'm the only one doing it. So I'm treating it like a research project. Being able to test in multiple rooms would shw that it "actually" works. Testing in only one room only really means that it works in this room...and nobody will believe it because of their preconceived ideas. I'd like to demonstrate it at a speaker competition, but there is work to be done before I do that!
The bass is a replica of the Western Electric TA-7331-A with 12" Jensen field coil drivers. These basically H frame OB with different sized front and back chambers.
The horns are from Lycan R&R based on, but not an exact replica of a Western Electric horn with Altec 802 8g drivers with paper diaphragms.
https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/ta-7331-a-here-we-go.6461/
https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/cast-aluminum-wp12024.11265/
The horns are from Lycan R&R based on, but not an exact replica of a Western Electric horn with Altec 802 8g drivers with paper diaphragms.
https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/ta-7331-a-here-we-go.6461/
https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/cast-aluminum-wp12024.11265/
I've tried several different multiple sub setups, and with pretty good results as far as getting a smoother response and over a wider area....with more steady state type tones, etc. Ao an improvement.
But concussive transients get diminished, which I don't like.
So overall I'm not a fan of multiple subs.
The guy, Paul Hale, has a story about multiples, and quote that I feel sympatico with...."get the kick drum out of my butt"
(56:15 gets straight to quote rather quickly)
BTW, he is 100% Toole/Olive, and makes much more sense about home audio than usually encountered...my2c.
But concussive transients get diminished, which I don't like.
So overall I'm not a fan of multiple subs.
The guy, Paul Hale, has a story about multiples, and quote that I feel sympatico with...."get the kick drum out of my butt"
BTW, he is 100% Toole/Olive, and makes much more sense about home audio than usually encountered...my2c.
I get more bass and it’s more even. It’s not a one note rumble. I can differentiate between floor toms and bass drums. My mains are transmission lines and the bass is there but the impact isn’t. The subs give me the impact, for example Neil Pearts power comes through.
One thing I’ve been experimenting with is the delay. Subs by their nature are already delayed so I delay my mains. I figure it’s better to delay the mains by 120 degrees than the subs by an additional 240 to bring them a full 360 out of phase which matches the frequency of the mains but is delayed in transients. I think home theater systems get it totally wrong by delaying the subwoofer.
One thing I’ve been experimenting with is the delay. Subs by their nature are already delayed so I delay my mains. I figure it’s better to delay the mains by 120 degrees than the subs by an additional 240 to bring them a full 360 out of phase which matches the frequency of the mains but is delayed in transients. I think home theater systems get it totally wrong by delaying the subwoofer.
Thanks. That's the kind of anecdote I'm looking for. Sounds like too much subwoofer ruins the effect?I've tried several different multiple sub setups, and with pretty good results as far as getting a smoother response and over a wider area....with more steady state type tones, etc. Ao an improvement.
But concussive transients get diminished, which I don't like.
So overall I'm not a fan of multiple subs.
The guy, Paul Hale, has a story about multiples, and quote that I feel sympatico with...."get the kick drum out of my butt"
(56:15 gets straight to quote rather quickly)
BTW, he is 100% Toole/Olive, and makes much more sense about home audio than usually encountered...my2c.
There is a video by Earl Geddes where he says he has not seen any benefit from using more than 4 subwoofers, and the video anecdote was a system using 8 subs! And the guy probably had butt shakers in the seats of the theater? Because the seats shouldn't vibrate unless the subs are extremely loud. I prefer a mostly flat response...
I have also been appreciating how drums sound a lot better.
With my subs, I am only using delays. My minidsp has up to 30ms delay, so I have delayed the high frequencies by 15ms, which allows me to use positive or negative delays. I use REW, which shows how frequency response changes with delays or inverting phase. It's quite effective, and I think the result sounds good. But using delays to adjust subs seems to be a little controvertial, and I don't know the limits of the technique.
It's just as dependent on location. You can't ignore one and make it up with the other.
Multiple subs both boost and cut. They are in effect active bass absorbers, all working towards a middle-ground.
Therefore, more subs simply means better averaging. 4 should be plenty, if you have the room versatility, and the time to set it up right.
I disagree. But I don't want to argue. Instead of arguing, I am planning an experiment to test/ demonstrate the principle. I'll post my results, but it may take some time. I have some other projects that need to take priority.