sam9 said:
reminds me of the advent of stereo (can I be that old?) -- with my uncle the audiophile of his day playing records of locomotives, etc.
btw, here's a suggestion for anyone going to the opera -- while the view is "impaired" in the boxes which are most adjacent the stage (they are therefore a little less expensive) they have the sweetest sound (at least in the Met Opera in NY) -- there is another "sweet spot" in the Dress Circle in the last row, both stage left and stage right. If you have to sleep through an opera don't get seats in the Dress Circle, however...getting opera tickets in NY is like getting your annual subscription to the Mets or Yankees -- every year a couple folks die off so that you gradually improve your location.!
At last....
You guys are not ordinary DIYers. You are designers. So, now I know that even designers have their own reference (that are made by someone else). Really wonders what Mr.Pass or Mr. John Curl uses for their reference.
ACD, I really dont know the AMCRONS. Is it difficult to find?
JAM, what do you think about X250 compared to X600?
Anyone has favourite reference amp that I can know?
You guys are not ordinary DIYers. You are designers. So, now I know that even designers have their own reference (that are made by someone else). Really wonders what Mr.Pass or Mr. John Curl uses for their reference.
ACD, I really dont know the AMCRONS. Is it difficult to find?
JAM, what do you think about X250 compared to X600?
Anyone has favourite reference amp that I can know?
My slone 80 watt DIY effort completely blew my Musical Fidelity A1 into the weeds. The A1 had a new preamp and power supply so it was not the standard factory version.
My regards to reference is this, it doesnt have to be ground breaking a reference simply means something you can guage other things by. That doesnt mean it has to be the best.
My regards to reference is this, it doesnt have to be ground breaking a reference simply means something you can guage other things by. That doesnt mean it has to be the best.
hello jay
Jay of post nr 6,
can you tell me more about the kits supplied in your country of the A1 of musical fidelity. Is this amp popular there even after MF stopped making them? What about the regulated front end? How does it work and do you hear it as a better sound?
I am curious since I am a MF A1 fan since 1985 and have built several of them.
Is there a standard pcb available there?
Rudy
Jay of post nr 6,
can you tell me more about the kits supplied in your country of the A1 of musical fidelity. Is this amp popular there even after MF stopped making them? What about the regulated front end? How does it work and do you hear it as a better sound?
I am curious since I am a MF A1 fan since 1985 and have built several of them.
Is there a standard pcb available there?
Rudy
My reference is from a different perspective than usual. It may have something to do with my bad right ear. But I only need and can appreciate fidelity in the bass and lower midrange region. I use a few hundred watt Pyramid as my reference to which I hope to compare my project amp when I build it. One advantage is that it can be purchased for a couple of hundred of dollars, not much more than the amount for which a DIY amp can be built.
IMHO, people won't know how a refference amplifier should sound like, before knowing how
a refference speaker should sound like. And even big dollars speakers are designed without
"refference" objectives in mind. Colorless is not always preferable or acceptable by market.
I feel that speakers are built "wrong" for the purpose of good sound or signature.
Hi Pak Lumanauw, kabar baik nih. Saya lupa nama orang yang menjual K389, tapi kalau ke Jakarta
datang aja ke Glodok Plaza atau Mangga Dua. Memang nyarinya susah, tapi biasanya mereka
punya ditempat lain. Kalau saya tidak punya uang untuk beli barang seperti itu
I really don't think that amps (I mean amp design or topology) have such a great effect on sound!
I believe the confusion comes from the speaker, not from the amplifiers.
How about different transconductance? How about simple circuit vs complex circuit with other links
(source, pre, speaker) are chosen to expose one circuit character?
Revealing audible difference is a LOT easier than deciding which one is better sounding. And, if
you can't hear the difference, it doesn't mean that they are the same. Many people can't reveal
the difference between a Krell and an NAD in such a test.
And what is live music? Unplugged? Even live music relies on electronics. If the standard is that
the sound should be as real as possible then tube amp is the refference! Because with the simple
topology and output Z characteristic, tube amps can create real sound even with the cheapest
speaker.
I was smiling when I read an emotional critic against someone (who is he?) who said that all
amps sound the same
I could hardly believe my ears. The Slone amp should have "different" implementation as with
MFA1. A1 is known for it's incapability to handle difficult load (Slone amp is not). You're young.
You probably like Bon Jovi and the big boom slam more than others do. As I can remember,
you're using a Froy, aren't you? That is not an easy load
Here you can "illegally" copy other people design without permission, build the PCB and sell
them. But it is not a big business as you might think. Only one or two guys selling high-end
components (who benefit from the component sales, not the PCB). And it is limited to a few
hobbyst having access to the DIY world over the internet (so we know not the real MF, but
the schematic from the internet).
Separated supply for the front end is always good, but this one is much better than expectation.
I think this is the first time I saw a schematic whose front end has lower supply voltage.
I increased the main supply from 20V (or 22?) to 25V, and the front end from 12V to 15V.
The regulator is a good one. It uses an opamp (I use LF356H). I use it for my OPA627 preamp too.
" 'double blind comparision of amps that are measurably the same in freq response, output Z and matched for listening level do not reveal any audible differences - there is an uncollected US$ 10 K bet out there for anyone who can tell the difference in controlled listening test'
"How about different transconductance? How about simple circuit vs complex circuit with other links
(source, pre, speaker) are chosen to expose one circuit character?
"Revealing audible difference is a LOT easier than deciding which one is better sounding. And, if you can't hear the difference, it doesn't mean that they are the same. Many people can't reveal
the difference between a Krell and an NAD in such a test."
Heck, about 20 years ago Carver demonstated to a bunch of "golden-ears" they couldn't even tell the difference between tube ans SS. At least not if he was allowed to mod the SS.
"How about different transconductance? How about simple circuit vs complex circuit with other links
(source, pre, speaker) are chosen to expose one circuit character?
"Revealing audible difference is a LOT easier than deciding which one is better sounding. And, if you can't hear the difference, it doesn't mean that they are the same. Many people can't reveal
the difference between a Krell and an NAD in such a test."
Heck, about 20 years ago Carver demonstated to a bunch of "golden-ears" they couldn't even tell the difference between tube ans SS. At least not if he was allowed to mod the SS.
This is a really fassinating thread...
From what i have learned, a perfect amp with no THD, max damping
etc. simply sounds BORING !
So the big question is, how to distord correctly. The human ear is
unbelievable sensitive to slightest harmonic distortions, but these
aren't recognized as distortions, it makes the sound of the amp.
I personally have a MF-A1, this is a really nice sounding amp, BUT...
In combination with EPOS-ES12 it sounds like ... Crap !
You suddenly have audible distortions within trebles.
Okay, i connect these speakers to my Yamaha-DSP-A2, hmm, now
these speakers have no trebles at all ! ???
By the way, the Yamaha is rated with THD of 0.008% at 50Watt,
20hz-20Khz. So much to numbers, the Yamaha is simply crap !
This was the point, where i started to design/build my own circuits.
All of them where designed to deliver high currents with ease, i tried
mosfet, bjt. According to spice, they had the same thd's, but mosfets
sound completely different than BJT, according to the way how to
wire them, you get completely different sounds, all having THD's
far below 0.01%.
The interesting thing was, all of my DIY-amps didn't show any of
the above mentioned weaknesses, but still, i wasn't happy !
There is a reason, why many people love tube-amps, they have
horrible measured values, but they sound !
I learned, that the combination of the harmonics and their phase
is critical to sound. So it's important, that the amp has all the current
the speaker needs, and compressive harmonics are the dead for
the sound. I once had a amp (mosfet), that sounded like having
several 100's of watts, just like playing with the speakers, but it
had only ~10watts RMS, just because it had uncompressive
distortions. Too bad that this one was unstable...
So, there can't really be a referencedesign, as the errors produced
by the amp make its sound.
Amen,
Mike
From what i have learned, a perfect amp with no THD, max damping
etc. simply sounds BORING !
So the big question is, how to distord correctly. The human ear is
unbelievable sensitive to slightest harmonic distortions, but these
aren't recognized as distortions, it makes the sound of the amp.
I personally have a MF-A1, this is a really nice sounding amp, BUT...
In combination with EPOS-ES12 it sounds like ... Crap !
You suddenly have audible distortions within trebles.
Okay, i connect these speakers to my Yamaha-DSP-A2, hmm, now
these speakers have no trebles at all ! ???
By the way, the Yamaha is rated with THD of 0.008% at 50Watt,
20hz-20Khz. So much to numbers, the Yamaha is simply crap !
This was the point, where i started to design/build my own circuits.
All of them where designed to deliver high currents with ease, i tried
mosfet, bjt. According to spice, they had the same thd's, but mosfets
sound completely different than BJT, according to the way how to
wire them, you get completely different sounds, all having THD's
far below 0.01%.
The interesting thing was, all of my DIY-amps didn't show any of
the above mentioned weaknesses, but still, i wasn't happy !
There is a reason, why many people love tube-amps, they have
horrible measured values, but they sound !
I learned, that the combination of the harmonics and their phase
is critical to sound. So it's important, that the amp has all the current
the speaker needs, and compressive harmonics are the dead for
the sound. I once had a amp (mosfet), that sounded like having
several 100's of watts, just like playing with the speakers, but it
had only ~10watts RMS, just because it had uncompressive
distortions. Too bad that this one was unstable...
So, there can't really be a referencedesign, as the errors produced
by the amp make its sound.
Amen,
Mike
MikeB said:
it depends. if you have an amp that can perfectly track any signal thus producing no measured THD, then the amp will just be as boring as the music it is fed.
Now, it is entirely possible (and highly likely) that you have an amp that have (very) low THD as measured using sine waves and such an amp will not reproduce satisfactorily real life music. The key here, I think, is to have as much wide bandwidth as possible so that it can accurately reproduce non-sine signals.
I would agree that thd measurements are no substitude for actual listening. But at the same time, I am confident that if you group all the amps by their thd measurements, the amps with better thd measurements will likely sound better thanthe amps with worse thd measurements -> that thd measurements are "proxies" for performance.
as to tube amps, there have been enough research done on them I think it is fair to say that when properly caliberated, most of us cannot tell the difference between tube and solid state amps. I believe Dr. Leach has an article on his site on this very topic. Tude's superiority in my view is overstated by a lot of us.
Saying that tubes and solid state can be calibrated to be indistinguishable is absurd merely because you would not be optimizing that particular topology. If you were deteriorating one of there capabilities more than the other than logically that particular gain device could be optimized to be the best. For me, the best amp that I've ever heard is the Wavelength Audio Cardinal X1 . Personally I'm not a 300B kinda guy merely because they're out of my price range, but that was the best I've heard thus far. I use my DIY Aleph 3 as a reference though because it is the amp I know the best and can thus easily use it for comparison (note: not the same as my "ultimate amp").
breguetphile said:
the article quoted by Leach went into great details about "equalizing" the playfield for both. and I can assure you that the one that got crippled is the SS amp. His test subjects, as I recall, were avid tube fans who swore up and down that they could hear the amps apart. Of the 25 or so, only one actually consistently demostrated his ability to do so. and the author suspected that he clued on the particular hum from the tube amp to do that.
not too long ago, two avid forum members who swore up and down said they could hear cable directionality. when put to a test, one couldn't hear and the other has since disappeared from forum.
there are a lot of people who claim to be able to hear non-inverting configurations from inverting comfigurations, carbon resistors from metal resistors, copper wires from silver wires, rubber feet from metal feet, one cap from another. It is all nice and dandy to be able to make outlandish claims. But those claims remain nothing but claims until and unless they can pass scientific tests.
Unfortunately, all those claims still remain claims.
there are a lot of people making a living by mystifying audio. Take a look at those marketing types around here and you will not be disappointed with the number of them.
as a diyer, I think it is in our best interest to investigage those claims with the same rigor and scentific mindset. Last thing I want is to sunk 2 cents into one of those unfounded claims.
as a diyer, I think it is in our best interest to investigage those claims with the same rigor and scentific mindset. Last thing I want is to sunk 2 cents into one of those unfounded claims.
"Saying that tubes and solid state can be calibrated to be indistinguishable is absurd merely because you would not be optimizing that particular topology."
Do you mean absurd in the sense that it is impossible, or in the sense that it is undesirable?
An assertion of "impossible" is always open to the risk that someone who finds such an assertionto be a challenge will find a way to refute it by example. Undesirable is partky open to a mater of taste, but I'm inclined to the idea that if there IS an audible difference between the two it seems kind of round about to emulate one with the other. Pointless except if there is a ost issue or one is undertaking it as a vehicle to learning more about physics of each.
Do you mean absurd in the sense that it is impossible, or in the sense that it is undesirable?
An assertion of "impossible" is always open to the risk that someone who finds such an assertionto be a challenge will find a way to refute it by example. Undesirable is partky open to a mater of taste, but I'm inclined to the idea that if there IS an audible difference between the two it seems kind of round about to emulate one with the other. Pointless except if there is a ost issue or one is undertaking it as a vehicle to learning more about physics of each.
"From what i have learned, a perfect amp with no THD, max damping etc. simply sounds BORING ! Mike "
Oddly enough, it stikes me just the opposite. An amp that imparts a particular identifiable character on the sound tends to obscure (even if ever so slightly) the differences between variouis pieces of music. I discovered the following link which seems to expound on this point better than I can:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0601/audiohell.htm
To me an amp that adds anything to the source material is like the experience of visiting the Louvre and finding that one of the Rembrandts is displayed behind a sheet of faintly warm rose colored glass. It may well look very pleasent, and I might not even conciously notice it but if everything, from DaVinci to Warhol gets the same treatment it becomes increasingly irritating. They are supossed to be DIFFERENT and anything that diminishes that difference becomes an affront.
Oddly enough, it stikes me just the opposite. An amp that imparts a particular identifiable character on the sound tends to obscure (even if ever so slightly) the differences between variouis pieces of music. I discovered the following link which seems to expound on this point better than I can:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0601/audiohell.htm
To me an amp that adds anything to the source material is like the experience of visiting the Louvre and finding that one of the Rembrandts is displayed behind a sheet of faintly warm rose colored glass. It may well look very pleasent, and I might not even conciously notice it but if everything, from DaVinci to Warhol gets the same treatment it becomes increasingly irritating. They are supossed to be DIFFERENT and anything that diminishes that difference becomes an affront.
millwood said:
OK, just to make things straight. I did not state which I believe would be crippled. I did, however, imply that I believe with both gain devices optimized one would be better than the other. Personally the best amplifier that I've heard however was the Wavelength as I mentioned. Personally I listen to SS and I enjoy it very much, although I do not necessarily believe its the most enjoyable given an endless money supply. I can only base this on experience though, nothing else.
Okay, i must admit that i made a very unfounded claim, it was just
a believing...
As there is no perfect amp without any distortion at all, we might
never know the truth. Of course the idea of HIFI is, to reproduce
the music as exactly as possible. But as it seems to be impossible
to eliminate every distortion, the goal is to build an amp, that
distort in a way that sounds good. But "good sounding" is a matter
of taste, so the discussion might never end, and it's very unlikely
that there will ever be a referencedesign that "sounds good" to
everyone...
Mike
a believing...
As there is no perfect amp without any distortion at all, we might
never know the truth. Of course the idea of HIFI is, to reproduce
the music as exactly as possible. But as it seems to be impossible
to eliminate every distortion, the goal is to build an amp, that
distort in a way that sounds good. But "good sounding" is a matter
of taste, so the discussion might never end, and it's very unlikely
that there will ever be a referencedesign that "sounds good" to
everyone...
Mike
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