A. Wayne, if you think that any speaker with a crossover in the middle of the spectrum will produce harmonics that are similar between the woofer's contribution and the tweeter's contribution, you must be smokin' something. The idea is that combined that they sum properly and are in phase and the harmonics stack up properly. It never ever does. The degree to which it succeeds determines a whole lot about the way it sounds.
The single wide range driver avoids most if not all of this problem.
It is clear that an instrument whose fundamental can move below the xover point to above the xover point will of necessity sound different above and below that point. There is no way a heavy woofer can or will have the same harmonics, including distortions as will that little light upper mid / tweeter thingie. It just doesn't sound the same. Can't.
My point is that all wide range drivers do not suffer from this very problem. However they do vary in terms of their intrinsic accuracy and distortions. But, they still sound to the listener more "correct" in terms of one aspect that we hear as being good and somehow right. The 555 on a horn is one of those that also is pretty darn good in all other parameters and is also wide range. So, it is good!
The single wide range driver avoids most if not all of this problem.
It is clear that an instrument whose fundamental can move below the xover point to above the xover point will of necessity sound different above and below that point. There is no way a heavy woofer can or will have the same harmonics, including distortions as will that little light upper mid / tweeter thingie. It just doesn't sound the same. Can't.
My point is that all wide range drivers do not suffer from this very problem. However they do vary in terms of their intrinsic accuracy and distortions. But, they still sound to the listener more "correct" in terms of one aspect that we hear as being good and somehow right. The 555 on a horn is one of those that also is pretty darn good in all other parameters and is also wide range. So, it is good!
Bear, if you are going to accuse me, at least get your facts straight 
1. I never defined xover points ..( middle of the spectrum ?)
2. Single drivers have a lot of issues, (they rotate phase also )
3. I never defined drivers , so I'm not sure which hat you're pulling all these specs from, "15 inch woofers and little tweeters ".? .
4. Only a complete tool would use an 15inch woofer in the mid-range area, apparently some do, well based on what i have seen with 2 way horns, I guess this is what you are basing your 2 way/3way speaker xover issues on.
5. I had no comment nor no opinion on the sound of the WE driver , so there is no need to convince...
Wrong target ..............
1. I never defined xover points ..( middle of the spectrum ?)
2. Single drivers have a lot of issues, (they rotate phase also )
3. I never defined drivers , so I'm not sure which hat you're pulling all these specs from, "15 inch woofers and little tweeters ".? .
4. Only a complete tool would use an 15inch woofer in the mid-range area, apparently some do, well based on what i have seen with 2 way horns, I guess this is what you are basing your 2 way/3way speaker xover issues on.
5. I had no comment nor no opinion on the sound of the WE driver , so there is no need to convince...
Wrong target ..............
There was always progress in the audio-market toward the goals that companies were setting. And those goals are not always the same as the marketing would like to communicate to the customers.
So we saw the market shift from the early beginnings with loaned equipment build to last forever and used by the cinema industry to the mass market home hifi products of the post war era and now to the all digital sounds the same era where software becoming more important because the hardware electronics is nearly the same in every consumer product.
What could be first be expected from each company to be a winner in the market and how should they behave to maximize profit when nobody is there to see the lousy quality of their products today compared to the highest standards of the early century?
In fact most of todays speakers have lousy product quality inside compared to what could really been done if someone wants it to do. But why should one do better?
They pay for advertising in the magazines and they become great testing with lousy products tested by people how doesnt know it better but where is the objectivity of one who gets indirect paid by the companies and where is the expertise of someone who advises other people to buy products when he himself is not able to judge by the standards that were set decades ago of his age and he never heard about those products.
This is third rate expertise, as someone who only has knowledge about ghetto blasters tries to judge a serious product. Absolute nonsense. And that has been happened all the years and so people who trusted what they heard has bought most of the stuff and now you guys can buy it from the asians back but they will not sell really.
Its the consequence of a society believing in progress who was not able to trust their own ears, who believed others and ran for decades after the so called progression and better products in hifi and really the companies have made the great buck by turning the wheel of new products as fast as they could and maximize their profit. All the time saying that they only tried to make progress in favor of the customer who only has to buy the new product because its so much better. Only naive people could believe that.
Everyone who has a little experience or studies in economics do know that companies first wants to earn most money. If that is possible with lousy products and the customer believe its worth the money even better for the companie.
Old WE company was different to that behaviour and had great ressources to engineer the best available in their time. It was true high end even when the term was not invented at all. The fact that those ancient products have not been surpassed in quality till today is a proove for the thesis above that market has changed completely in his goals since then.
So we saw the market shift from the early beginnings with loaned equipment build to last forever and used by the cinema industry to the mass market home hifi products of the post war era and now to the all digital sounds the same era where software becoming more important because the hardware electronics is nearly the same in every consumer product.
What could be first be expected from each company to be a winner in the market and how should they behave to maximize profit when nobody is there to see the lousy quality of their products today compared to the highest standards of the early century?
In fact most of todays speakers have lousy product quality inside compared to what could really been done if someone wants it to do. But why should one do better?
They pay for advertising in the magazines and they become great testing with lousy products tested by people how doesnt know it better but where is the objectivity of one who gets indirect paid by the companies and where is the expertise of someone who advises other people to buy products when he himself is not able to judge by the standards that were set decades ago of his age and he never heard about those products.
This is third rate expertise, as someone who only has knowledge about ghetto blasters tries to judge a serious product. Absolute nonsense. And that has been happened all the years and so people who trusted what they heard has bought most of the stuff and now you guys can buy it from the asians back but they will not sell really.
Its the consequence of a society believing in progress who was not able to trust their own ears, who believed others and ran for decades after the so called progression and better products in hifi and really the companies have made the great buck by turning the wheel of new products as fast as they could and maximize their profit. All the time saying that they only tried to make progress in favor of the customer who only has to buy the new product because its so much better. Only naive people could believe that.
Everyone who has a little experience or studies in economics do know that companies first wants to earn most money. If that is possible with lousy products and the customer believe its worth the money even better for the companie.
Old WE company was different to that behaviour and had great ressources to engineer the best available in their time. It was true high end even when the term was not invented at all. The fact that those ancient products have not been surpassed in quality till today is a proove for the thesis above that market has changed completely in his goals since then.
A minor detour, debris in the road?
Ummm... ur post: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ave-we-come-last-100-years-4.html#post2953556
Number 152??
You've said some things here that I simply never said, and made assumptions rather than dealing with the basic idea.
Use what? A 12" woofer, go to a 4" mid and then to a 1" dome? Pick ur scheme. I'll stick by what I said.
The best of the commercial multiway speakers do sound goodish. I can't name one that I want to own, at any price. Take the xover out of the midrange and you no longer have a traditional multiway system. You suddenly have a widrange driver in the middle, yes?
Ok, back to our regular programming...
_-_-bear
Bear, if you are going to accuse me, at least get your facts straight
1. I never defined xover points ..( middle of the spectrum ?)
2. Single drivers have a lot of issues, (they rotate phase also )
3. I never defined drivers , so I'm not sure which hat you're pulling all these specs from, "15 inch woofers and little tweeters ".? .
4. Only a complete tool would use an 15inch woofer in the mid-range area, apparently some do, well based on what i have seen with 2 way horns, I guess this is what you are basing your 2 way/3way speaker xover issues on.
5. I had no comment nor no opinion on the sound of the WE driver , so there is no need to convince...
Wrong target ..............
Ummm... ur post: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ave-we-come-last-100-years-4.html#post2953556
Number 152??
You've said some things here that I simply never said, and made assumptions rather than dealing with the basic idea.
Use what? A 12" woofer, go to a 4" mid and then to a 1" dome? Pick ur scheme. I'll stick by what I said.
The best of the commercial multiway speakers do sound goodish. I can't name one that I want to own, at any price. Take the xover out of the midrange and you no longer have a traditional multiway system. You suddenly have a widrange driver in the middle, yes?
Ok, back to our regular programming...
_-_-bear
Then why do you continue to post in this thread?
So those who have not heard the sound of the WE driver is not allowed to post.. Interesting .............. Dogma
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Sounds fair, so that leaves you , Joe, Bear and maybe a couple more who has heard this speaker, start deleting the rest ....
Bear made a lot of unsubstantiated statements in his attempt to promote the WE speaker, I called him on it, whats the issue? If your brother in law and his friends said a basketball player could do a vertical jump of 30 ft, I'm sure you don't have to watch basketball to call him on it ...
Hold tight ...
Bear made a lot of unsubstantiated statements in his attempt to promote the WE speaker, I called him on it, whats the issue? If your brother in law and his friends said a basketball player could do a vertical jump of 30 ft, I'm sure you don't have to watch basketball to call him on it ...
Hold tight ...
No, not at all. The take away of the test is that some of the modern violins sound as good as the Strads. Those doing the testing/playing felt they were all marvelous instruments.
A. Wayne, one of us is not understanding the other. I think it is you who fails to understand what i am saying. You did not quote me at all, you said things that I did not say, and said some things that make not a whole lot of sense. Not to me anyhow. Perhaps someone else can enlighten me as to what your point is, and tell me if I am misunderstanding how traditional multiway speakers operate wrt the point(s) I raised?
If you called me on something, I missed it. Please if you want to do that, make a statement that is clear and has context?
_-_-bear
If you called me on something, I missed it. Please if you want to do that, make a statement that is clear and has context?
_-_-bear
So much Irony ....
Please post what was so wrongfully done so i can apologize, to not do so , dare i say , would be too much to "bare" ..
No wait !!! I apologize bear .......... forgive me !
Can we move on now .....?
.
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wayne, ur not being very nice.
...the harmonic series that comes off a large cone sounds different than that which comes off a smaller cone, and especially one of different material, attempting to make them operate as one via a crossover in the region typical of most multiway systems is never entirely satisfactory compared to the harmonic series that comes off a single cone/dome/source. Do you agree disagree?
Am I out here on a limb, or on solid ground? Anyone care to stand with me, or cut me off and let me fall?
_-_-bear
...the harmonic series that comes off a large cone sounds different than that which comes off a smaller cone, and especially one of different material, attempting to make them operate as one via a crossover in the region typical of most multiway systems is never entirely satisfactory compared to the harmonic series that comes off a single cone/dome/source. Do you agree disagree?
Am I out here on a limb, or on solid ground? Anyone care to stand with me, or cut me off and let me fall?
_-_-bear
Bear based on your loaded supposition, what am i to say ...
What is an typical multi-way Speaker...?
I'm not sure i know what one is , I know i have done multi-way speakers for decades and never had such issues, driver selection and voicing is critical, listening distance and expected SPL has to be known , there are other complex issues involved, xover point and slope type is one, done correctly they come together as one..
A well done multi-way speaker you can stand 14 inchs from the speaker and hear one sound source ...
Dig ..... !
What is an typical multi-way Speaker...?
I'm not sure i know what one is , I know i have done multi-way speakers for decades and never had such issues, driver selection and voicing is critical, listening distance and expected SPL has to be known , there are other complex issues involved, xover point and slope type is one, done correctly they come together as one..
A well done multi-way speaker you can stand 14 inchs from the speaker and hear one sound source ...
Dig ..... !
since you insist.
Rather than discuss the issue, you claim I am listening to "badly designed speakers". How would you know? You give no examples or basis for your disagreement.
You re-assert something that is not present in my post at all.
You provide no concept or theoretical basis for your claim.
This referred to the analogy to the two pianos, one a Grand the other a cheap spinet, split between the left and right hand. This serves to illuminate the concept. At the very best this effect is less than overwhelming, but never not present. Never not present in a multiway speaker. You are free to believe that the additive process of multiple drivers is "blameless" or essentially "perfect" but IF that was so, then there would not have been the last 50 years or more of JAES articles on how to get this very process to work properly. Or did you fail to notice the articles and what they mean?
Well of course it does. ALL speakers have limitations. But, the one I was trying to discuss it does not have a problem with. Right?
Do tell?
Please expound upon the subject.
In the past when I was off base or wrong, I have said so. No problem.
And btw, who are these "deaf people" who think they can design speakers?
Anyone in this thread? Not sure what ur getting at.
I do agree that many many commercial designs are not so great, but that has not a thing to do with the topic I brought up - right or wrong. We are not discussing the merits of people who are not good speaker designers, are we?
_-_-
Rather than discuss the issue, you claim I am listening to "badly designed speakers". How would you know? You give no examples or basis for your disagreement.
You re-assert something that is not present in my post at all.
You provide no concept or theoretical basis for your claim.
exaggerated ..? try apples and oranges ...
This referred to the analogy to the two pianos, one a Grand the other a cheap spinet, split between the left and right hand. This serves to illuminate the concept. At the very best this effect is less than overwhelming, but never not present. Never not present in a multiway speaker. You are free to believe that the additive process of multiple drivers is "blameless" or essentially "perfect" but IF that was so, then there would not have been the last 50 years or more of JAES articles on how to get this very process to work properly. Or did you fail to notice the articles and what they mean?
Well of course it does. ALL speakers have limitations. But, the one I was trying to discuss it does not have a problem with. Right?
Do tell?
Please expound upon the subject.
In the past when I was off base or wrong, I have said so. No problem.
And btw, who are these "deaf people" who think they can design speakers?
Anyone in this thread? Not sure what ur getting at.
I do agree that many many commercial designs are not so great, but that has not a thing to do with the topic I brought up - right or wrong. We are not discussing the merits of people who are not good speaker designers, are we?
_-_-
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