I agree and didn't want to question this with my comment about fish. It's just good to get a feel for relations.
Not to add fuel to the flames - just for perspective: in 2020 9 billion chicken were killed in the usa.
It's probably best to use any form of natural, non-fossile energy available. Or even better try to save as much as possible.
"On the other hand wind turbines without any doubt are killing eagles, hawks, falcons, owls and other birds in massive numbers. Over half a million every year in the US alone."
Can I have the source for that, I would be interested to know more? What are the results of global warming to other species, not only humans, due to things such as increases in skin cancer, increased flooding, and crop failures? Without information such as this, how can one make educated decisions?
Can I have the source for that, I would be interested to know more? What are the results of global warming to other species, not only humans, due to things such as increases in skin cancer, increased flooding, and crop failures? Without information such as this, how can one make educated decisions?
Back to the noise. There are significant efforts being made here toreduce the noise that is hurting at least teh mamals of the sea.
dave
https://electrek.co/2024/03/27/offshore-wind-farm-new-england-vineyard-wind-2/
I don’t think bats go far from shore.
BTW: during spawning season (just at the bottom of th emountain) we probably get near as many Bald Eagles as the entire USA.
dave
I don’t think bats go far from shore.
BTW: during spawning season (just at the bottom of th emountain) we probably get near as many Bald Eagles as the entire USA.
dave
The cat thing is a bit of a red herring, interesting thou.
That was not the important part of the bit i quoted in post #4
we should be endeavoring to reduce the deaths of wildlife all over in all ways. My cats stay indoors. And i feed the semi-feral neighbourhood cat so it does not need to eat birds to survive.
And the science is not statik. For instance it seems that painting 1 blade black significantly reduces bird strikes. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...help-birds-avoid-deadly-collisions-180975668/
Bats may need some other method given they ‘see” by echo location. If they see the moving blades they should be able to avoid them.
Then one has to consider evolution, the creatures that avoid the blades will reproduce and the offspring will be more likely to avoid the blades.
It should be noted that solar panels in fields are compatible with sheep (https://electrek.co/2024/03/25/ohios-largest-solar-farm-us-largest-agrivoltaics-project/)
And creatures get fried if they fly into the beam of a focused solar array. Fortunately there are fewer of those in the deserts where they are best put due to no clouds.
The OP notes (more than once) that wave/tidal is estimated to be able to provide 66% of US power needs. Fusion, which could well beat widespread ocean kinetik power to mass production, could provide near 100% of US needs.
dave
That was not the important part of the bit i quoted in post #4
we should be endeavoring to reduce the deaths of wildlife all over in all ways. My cats stay indoors. And i feed the semi-feral neighbourhood cat so it does not need to eat birds to survive.
And the science is not statik. For instance it seems that painting 1 blade black significantly reduces bird strikes. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...help-birds-avoid-deadly-collisions-180975668/
Bats may need some other method given they ‘see” by echo location. If they see the moving blades they should be able to avoid them.
Then one has to consider evolution, the creatures that avoid the blades will reproduce and the offspring will be more likely to avoid the blades.
It should be noted that solar panels in fields are compatible with sheep (https://electrek.co/2024/03/25/ohios-largest-solar-farm-us-largest-agrivoltaics-project/)
And creatures get fried if they fly into the beam of a focused solar array. Fortunately there are fewer of those in the deserts where they are best put due to no clouds.
The OP notes (more than once) that wave/tidal is estimated to be able to provide 66% of US power needs. Fusion, which could well beat widespread ocean kinetik power to mass production, could provide near 100% of US needs.
dave
Maybe, eventually. Evolution is slow and uncertain. You could have made similar arguments for all sorts of things, many of which have led to extinctions...
I can only speak for the UK and here we have several bat species that're already under significant pressure. So much so, roosts are legally protected. Fines and even imprisonment.
But the the wind farm down the road gets to mince them f.o.c.
As someone else pointed out, these are decisions we have to make. But nothing is without consequences and the noble cause defence is, for the want of a better word, pants...
Earlier someone mentioned tidal lagoons. There's one been proposed for Swansea. There was a government review that said it would be several multiples more expensive than offshore wind. Even nuclear.
“The estimated cumulative impact of collisions with wind turbines is several orders of magnitude lower than the estimated impacts from the leading anthropogenic causes of songbird mortality”.
“Some migratory tree-roosting bat species appear particularly vulnerable to wind power.”
“Bat fatalities in the southwestern United States are poorly understood but the Brazilian Freetailed Bat appears to be vulnerable”.
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/wind/pdfs/birds_and_bats_fact_sheet.pdf
"Climate change is an undeniable reality that is dramatically shaping our world today. Its impacts are profound, from rising temperatures and melting ice caps to extreme weather. But its consequences are not limited to humans alone. It also has far-reaching effects on the world’s biodiversity. This is often overlooked, yet it is interlinked.
In just over 40 years, wildlife populations showed a dramatic decline of 69% on average. The IPCC reports that around 20-30% of species could die out if global mean temperatures go up by 1.5-2.5 degrees. Yet the global average surface temperature has risen by roughly 1 degree Celsius. The data speaks for itself, painting a clear picture of the current state of biodiversity and climate change".
https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/challenges/wildlife-and-biodiversity/climate-change-biodiversity/#:~:text=to humans alone.-,It also has far-reaching effects on the world's biodiversity,up by 1.5-2.5 degrees.
I'm not sure if there is a victimless option.
“Some migratory tree-roosting bat species appear particularly vulnerable to wind power.”
“Bat fatalities in the southwestern United States are poorly understood but the Brazilian Freetailed Bat appears to be vulnerable”.
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/wind/pdfs/birds_and_bats_fact_sheet.pdf
"Climate change is an undeniable reality that is dramatically shaping our world today. Its impacts are profound, from rising temperatures and melting ice caps to extreme weather. But its consequences are not limited to humans alone. It also has far-reaching effects on the world’s biodiversity. This is often overlooked, yet it is interlinked.
In just over 40 years, wildlife populations showed a dramatic decline of 69% on average. The IPCC reports that around 20-30% of species could die out if global mean temperatures go up by 1.5-2.5 degrees. Yet the global average surface temperature has risen by roughly 1 degree Celsius. The data speaks for itself, painting a clear picture of the current state of biodiversity and climate change".
https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/challenges/wildlife-and-biodiversity/climate-change-biodiversity/#:~:text=to humans alone.-,It also has far-reaching effects on the world's biodiversity,up by 1.5-2.5 degrees.
I'm not sure if there is a victimless option.
It is uncertain, but can be quite rapid as has been documented a number of times recently.
dave
Yes. But. The more highly adapted to a niche, the more vulnerable. Particularly species that are dependent on a single type of habitat, food source, etc.
There are species of wasp that live in figs. Different wasps for different figs. They're responsible for fertilising them without the figs the wasps cannot live. Without the wasps the figs aren't fertile.
I'm not sure anyone can really say one way or the other because no-one has so far conducted a comprehensive and long term study. It's difficult to do because bats are small and wind farms occupy large land areas.
It's also worth pointing out that most countries seem to have plans to install a lots of onshore turbines.
But, if the threat from CC is as some predict, the loss of more species might be considered acceptable I suppose.
Wind and solar are the CO2 reducing measures you can install now or next week. Abolishing them for questionable reasons and pointing to future, maybe working or not working inventions with other "no-no" causes, doesn't help any Inuit, polar bear or drowning island state now.
We should not forget that many news of such negative impacts are published by interest groups that are well hidden. You need not be an conspiracy theorist to believe this. For example there is a great lobby that successfully and unseen blocks bio fuels in most European counties. Fuels that can turn conventionel automobiles practically emmission free. Very unlikely the E-vehicle industry likes these readily aviable fuels. Any new car not build it worth more than a thousand battery cars. If you really care for the planet.
Many once idealistic organizations like Green Peace or Amnesty International have developed into self serving, revenue generating ventures with opaque political aims.
Surprisingly, German birds seem to adapt to wind turbines. There is no bird or bat problem here. On the other hand, drone and paraglider pilots complain about the danger generated by these rotating swords. Which seems to be an increasing problem.
We should not forget that many news of such negative impacts are published by interest groups that are well hidden. You need not be an conspiracy theorist to believe this. For example there is a great lobby that successfully and unseen blocks bio fuels in most European counties. Fuels that can turn conventionel automobiles practically emmission free. Very unlikely the E-vehicle industry likes these readily aviable fuels. Any new car not build it worth more than a thousand battery cars. If you really care for the planet.
Many once idealistic organizations like Green Peace or Amnesty International have developed into self serving, revenue generating ventures with opaque political aims.
Surprisingly, German birds seem to adapt to wind turbines. There is no bird or bat problem here. On the other hand, drone and paraglider pilots complain about the danger generated by these rotating swords. Which seems to be an increasing problem.
"Here is the source:"
"Wind turbines kill more than 573,000 birds each year in the United States, according to The Associated Press,"
Thanks for that, it seems a big number, but how many are killed by other incedants every year?
"We estimate that from 500 million to possibly over 1 billion birds are killed annually in the United States due to anthropogenic sources including collisions with human-made structures such as vehicles, buildings and windows, power lines, communication towers, and wind turbines; electrocutions; oil spills and other ..."
'Forest Service U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE'
So, though a large number (573,000) it is tiny compared to other causes it seems.
Anyway, this is not, (for me at least) a "mine is bigger, (or smaller!) than yours"), it's a can we go on like we have been? and if not, what's the best way forward. All change has a cost, and how do we value that? Are birds more or less important than deaths and relocations due to sea level rise? Are droughts and famine caused, to be factored in? How should the millions of acres burnt by forest fires and the many tens of millions of animals killed be noted? It's easy if not directly affected to make value judgements, pretty tweeting birds, or cheap oil and turning a blind eye to it all, or fluffy animals, dying coral reefs, or starvation and skin cancer in another country?
Everybody has their take on it, I don't think these things can be ignored any longer.
"Every year in the United States, approximately 9 billion “broiler” chickens are killed for their flesh. To put such a large number into perspective, that's about 25 million chickens killed every day; 1 million chickens killed every hour; 17,000 chickens killed every minute; or 300 chickens killed every second."
As someone who has kept chickens for eggs and as pets, I can say that they are just as "cute" as other birds. It's all about how one values these things.
(PS, I like eating chicken too).
"Wind turbines kill more than 573,000 birds each year in the United States, according to The Associated Press,"
Thanks for that, it seems a big number, but how many are killed by other incedants every year?
"We estimate that from 500 million to possibly over 1 billion birds are killed annually in the United States due to anthropogenic sources including collisions with human-made structures such as vehicles, buildings and windows, power lines, communication towers, and wind turbines; electrocutions; oil spills and other ..."
'Forest Service U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE'
So, though a large number (573,000) it is tiny compared to other causes it seems.
Anyway, this is not, (for me at least) a "mine is bigger, (or smaller!) than yours"), it's a can we go on like we have been? and if not, what's the best way forward. All change has a cost, and how do we value that? Are birds more or less important than deaths and relocations due to sea level rise? Are droughts and famine caused, to be factored in? How should the millions of acres burnt by forest fires and the many tens of millions of animals killed be noted? It's easy if not directly affected to make value judgements, pretty tweeting birds, or cheap oil and turning a blind eye to it all, or fluffy animals, dying coral reefs, or starvation and skin cancer in another country?
Everybody has their take on it, I don't think these things can be ignored any longer.
"Every year in the United States, approximately 9 billion “broiler” chickens are killed for their flesh. To put such a large number into perspective, that's about 25 million chickens killed every day; 1 million chickens killed every hour; 17,000 chickens killed every minute; or 300 chickens killed every second."
As someone who has kept chickens for eggs and as pets, I can say that they are just as "cute" as other birds. It's all about how one values these things.
(PS, I like eating chicken too).
Last edited:
That misses the point. Before turbines were a thing we were all very worried about the threat to raptors/owls from various anthropogenic sources (mostly habitat loss IIRC). We introduced strong legislation to try to protect them, their nests and habitat. Turbines are adding to the pressure, not relieving it (any time soon) and have to be viewed in that regard.
Take a look at the information on the bald/golden eagle population numbers continue to be low, and they've been increasingly protected since the 1940s. Penalties are fairly steep:
Will widespread deployment of turbines push them to the brink? Don't know. Does anyone? Really?