oh boy what a hornet's nest....
maybe i should have been clearer....
when the 901 first came out i remember every mag that trashed it offered the explanation "how can one driver operate from 40-20000Hz?"
Today drivers like the FE103,107,127, 206, 208, W3 871, W4 657 or 923, JX92 etc... are debunking this myth. I know a few people who use 3-8" fullrange drivers and are quite satisfied.
Did anyone (calling all "fossils") listen to the Bose 4" HVC driver used on the 901s? BTW me recollects HVC stood for Helical Voice Coil. I mean listen to the driver not the system.
In many of my past expereinces going back to the AR3/2ax I found that the drivers used were really quite good and a bit of tweaking or even using the drivers in a different application as intended often prodcuded better sound.
For example the Decca Ribbons on a modfied DQ10 were my 1st brush with those excellent tweeters and also the beautiful Audax 5" midrange.
maybe i should have been clearer....
when the 901 first came out i remember every mag that trashed it offered the explanation "how can one driver operate from 40-20000Hz?"
Today drivers like the FE103,107,127, 206, 208, W3 871, W4 657 or 923, JX92 etc... are debunking this myth. I know a few people who use 3-8" fullrange drivers and are quite satisfied.
Did anyone (calling all "fossils") listen to the Bose 4" HVC driver used on the 901s? BTW me recollects HVC stood for Helical Voice Coil. I mean listen to the driver not the system.
In many of my past expereinces going back to the AR3/2ax I found that the drivers used were really quite good and a bit of tweaking or even using the drivers in a different application as intended often prodcuded better sound.
For example the Decca Ribbons on a modfied DQ10 were my 1st brush with those excellent tweeters and also the beautiful Audax 5" midrange.
I agree, and to make matters worse Bose drive units are made in Indian, with almost slave labour conditions, A UK company called Mission tried to make there drivers there but the quality was so poor, they pulled out real fast, I think the owner of Bose is an indian Chap, Like i said before Bose sells like crazy, its more about style than content! Who said Good things are not cheap and cheap things are not good? They didnt know about marketing did they!
Through my latest work using many equations considered for Mr. Linkwitz's work in his open baffle loudspeakers has prompted me to disect my father's 901s. (and yes, I was the young'un that was lost many moons ago.) 
And, so I return with much a mature and capable mind.
Comments on the 901s: Distinctive sound...there's something about the sound of the 901s that is interesting. Even when listening to my Open Baffles I wonder how the 901s are in comparison. The 901s are powerful and sparkly. That's how I can best describe them. Their bass is about 40Hz. deep and smooth all the way down there too. They are clear, but not truthfully clear--it's a perceiverence thing where an accentuated treble or mid-range (still unsure) gives such an effect. I know this because I've A/B'd my baffles. The mid-range also isn't clear because one is reflecting the sound off of the walls more so than firing into the listening space. I've also seen the paper where the Reflect+direct sound interpretation was made--I believe the interpretation to be immature and brute in terms of not understanding sound as it travels in a space. I am not educated enough to support my statement mathematically though, I can provide some inductive reasoning for such an argument.
Anyway, I've been dreaming up some designs--I'll draw some up quickly. The first picture will make use of the fact that reflecting off the back walls is bad and should fire into the listening space first. I'm thinking of using 2x Silver Flute ribbons and 8x Silver Flute 5.25" drivers in some type of enclosure (sealed, vented or, even OB ...hmmm..).
And the next, takes the advantages of bipolar radiation.
The key will be to keep per unit cost relatively low.
Oh yeah, Dr. Bose was born in Calcutta, India. His name is Amar Gopal Bose.
And, so I return with much a mature and capable mind.Comments on the 901s: Distinctive sound...there's something about the sound of the 901s that is interesting. Even when listening to my Open Baffles I wonder how the 901s are in comparison. The 901s are powerful and sparkly. That's how I can best describe them. Their bass is about 40Hz. deep and smooth all the way down there too. They are clear, but not truthfully clear--it's a perceiverence thing where an accentuated treble or mid-range (still unsure) gives such an effect. I know this because I've A/B'd my baffles. The mid-range also isn't clear because one is reflecting the sound off of the walls more so than firing into the listening space. I've also seen the paper where the Reflect+direct sound interpretation was made--I believe the interpretation to be immature and brute in terms of not understanding sound as it travels in a space. I am not educated enough to support my statement mathematically though, I can provide some inductive reasoning for such an argument.
Anyway, I've been dreaming up some designs--I'll draw some up quickly. The first picture will make use of the fact that reflecting off the back walls is bad and should fire into the listening space first. I'm thinking of using 2x Silver Flute ribbons and 8x Silver Flute 5.25" drivers in some type of enclosure (sealed, vented or, even OB ...hmmm..).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And the next, takes the advantages of bipolar radiation.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The key will be to keep per unit cost relatively low.
Oh yeah, Dr. Bose was born in Calcutta, India. His name is Amar Gopal Bose.
I was thinking about making a mini line array using nine of these bad boys:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-300
I wonder what sort of bass loading I could use to get the most bass from these. One option would be to get them in the array and then once the combined sensitivity is something like 90dB 1w/1m, I could use a contouring network (passive EQ) to apply 5dB of cut to everything above the point at which the port is tuned, and tune the enclosure so that there is a sort of shelf at the port's tuning frequency which will be below Fs. That way the port is absorbing all the amplifier's power at these frequencies (much like the Bose 901 does), and the frequency resposne can be deeper.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-300
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I wonder what sort of bass loading I could use to get the most bass from these. One option would be to get them in the array and then once the combined sensitivity is something like 90dB 1w/1m, I could use a contouring network (passive EQ) to apply 5dB of cut to everything above the point at which the port is tuned, and tune the enclosure so that there is a sort of shelf at the port's tuning frequency which will be below Fs. That way the port is absorbing all the amplifier's power at these frequencies (much like the Bose 901 does), and the frequency resposne can be deeper.
I think I might have to get a bunch of those except go with about 24 per side on an OB array which will help offset that tilted response. You have to add some other drivers for bass because loading small drivers below Fs takes a lot of drivers and steep attentuation to offset the rising response to Fs. An array will likely tame that response spike at 12K.
I wish it was under $1 though like the pioneer 4".
I wish it was under $1 though like the pioneer 4".
My thoughts on the 901:
They served a very useful purpose.
Can you imagine the martini sipping crowd in their business suits and dresses sitting in front of a set of Cerwin Vega's?
Me either
How 'bout this,
A 4X4 and a luxury car costing the same still only really do one thing. Deliver you.
A speaker just delivers the sound to your ear.
Why are you comparing 4" drivers in a direct/reflecting system with what I would like to term "real loudspeakers"?
Those little marvels of electronics with their EQ/processors, nasty harmonics interference and stylish pedestals where just right for the market.
Maybe not for 4X4ing though.
I have never owned a pair, but have listened to many (back when my friends were older and richer than I). Still have a friend of a friend who stands proudly by his. He's stuck in the sixties, I've moved on.
But, I do wish to all the dickens I'd invented the 901. Wouldn't you be proud to have that on your resume/CV? Too young I suppose.
And besides, when all is said and done, after a few beer, those 901's sounded just fine
Think I'll go have one
Cheers
Cal
Long live the entrepreneur who can cause this kind of controversy with a bunch of 4 inch drivers.
IMHO that's funny
They served a very useful purpose.
Can you imagine the martini sipping crowd in their business suits and dresses sitting in front of a set of Cerwin Vega's?
Me either
How 'bout this,
A 4X4 and a luxury car costing the same still only really do one thing. Deliver you.
A speaker just delivers the sound to your ear.
Why are you comparing 4" drivers in a direct/reflecting system with what I would like to term "real loudspeakers"?
Those little marvels of electronics with their EQ/processors, nasty harmonics interference and stylish pedestals where just right for the market.
Maybe not for 4X4ing though.
I have never owned a pair, but have listened to many (back when my friends were older and richer than I). Still have a friend of a friend who stands proudly by his. He's stuck in the sixties, I've moved on.
But, I do wish to all the dickens I'd invented the 901. Wouldn't you be proud to have that on your resume/CV? Too young I suppose.
And besides, when all is said and done, after a few beer, those 901's sounded just fine
Think I'll go have one
Cheers
Cal
Long live the entrepreneur who can cause this kind of controversy with a bunch of 4 inch drivers.
IMHO that's funny
Paradise_Ice said:
Please refrain from statement such as this.
1. "Slave Labour" conditions in India, China, the banana republics, Brazil, etc... are the reason why many goods available in the "developed" countries are affordable. Have you visited a Indian or Chinese or Costa Rican or Nicaraguan factory or are you just going by media reports. The media's job is to sell papers and if that means to sensationlize an issue they will.
2. Indian Prodcuts are not bad. Maybe a walk around steel plants, software companies, hospitals in any developed country esp. US, UK and Germany will be an eye opener. I am part of an Indian company that exports over 50% of their production to the US, UK and Germany and this despite there are cheaper products locally available.
3. Mission was a anamoly. In fact Mission found that they could do the same things cheaper in China. So did Monitor Audio, Mordant Short, NAD and a host of other audio cos. like AR, Infinity, etc... In fact I am given to believe that some Infinity and AR systems as well as JPW etc.. are MADE IN INDIA.
4. For every faliure of a foriegn company in India I can list 9 success stories. A batting average of 9/10 is not bad. it is better than China's batting average and a hell of a lot better than Babe Ruth's
in fact in of my working with experience with US, German, British, Australian, cos over more than 2 decades the only faliure i had was when we tried to work with a Taiwanese company.5. As far as pay scales go I will be the first to agree that the average Indian salaries are about 10-20% of US, UK, German salaries. Yet at these low salaries Indian labour is atleast employed. I pay my driver about Rs. 7000 (USD 150) a month (outside Bombay that salary would be half). Yet he is very happy earning that. If I did not employ him he'd be out of a job. The funny thing is that it was a Swiss friend of mine who woke me up to this fact; and all the while I was feeling ashamed of paying salaries that are 10-20% of US/European wages.
6. Marketing in an American expertise (have you worked on Madison Av?). Coke would be a nice example. You pay $1 for about 5 cents of raw material. The fact that an American of Indian descent was able to sell a bunch of $3 4" drivers fro $1000 and that too after making an American Institue (a small college near Boston called MIT) fund part of the research just goes to show his resourcefulness.
7. Lastly just because we Indians are not 17 stone Kung Fu Experts, like our dear beloved moderators, does not mean we can't be just as nationalistic and deadly.
Cal Weldon said:
no real reason expect....
1. the fostex 107, JX92, TB W4 657 and W3 871 are similar sized.
2. i am toying with the notion of using a fullrange on an OB atleast above 400Hz.
3. Given that some fullranges available today are small (there are larger full ranges like the Visaton B200, Fostex 206/208, etc..) and Bose used similar drivers in the 901 I was wondering if Bose was on to something.
4. OB theory dictates that part of the sound be reflected off the rear/side walls so did Bose in the 901.
I am not comparing the 107 or JX92 with the 901 but it is interesting to note that these drivers share the same size and, when used in OB, similar dispersion patterns.
Navin I apologize for my rather blunt comment,
I know only to well that Indian and China and many other countries make very high quality export goods, the original thread was is Bose 901 any good, My brother sells Bose and other brands, and the quality has gone down over a decade, That’s not the manufacturer fault, its the accountants am sure, As for Mission they really have lost there position as a leading UK speaker maker, We all know Drive Units get made for a few dollars, I believe Chinese and Indian labour get treated better than Mexican workers in LA and paid more for the same tasks, slave labour to me does not mean chained and whipped, it just means not being paid a reasonable amount for the work undertaken, Everybody wants bigger profit margins, but I still don’t think its fair, companies like ATC in the UK make speakers, at a much higher cost, but the quality is not magical in any means, infact it could be better, but compared to Bose its quality is off the scale, What I meant to convey was Bose makes life style rubbish for yuppies and is a designer band now, Like some fashion house, With a 1000% profit margin, I lived in Mumbai for a long time and I have lived in California and its the same imbalance in each society, who has the better deal, would we do it?
I know only to well that Indian and China and many other countries make very high quality export goods, the original thread was is Bose 901 any good, My brother sells Bose and other brands, and the quality has gone down over a decade, That’s not the manufacturer fault, its the accountants am sure, As for Mission they really have lost there position as a leading UK speaker maker, We all know Drive Units get made for a few dollars, I believe Chinese and Indian labour get treated better than Mexican workers in LA and paid more for the same tasks, slave labour to me does not mean chained and whipped, it just means not being paid a reasonable amount for the work undertaken, Everybody wants bigger profit margins, but I still don’t think its fair, companies like ATC in the UK make speakers, at a much higher cost, but the quality is not magical in any means, infact it could be better, but compared to Bose its quality is off the scale, What I meant to convey was Bose makes life style rubbish for yuppies and is a designer band now, Like some fashion house, With a 1000% profit margin, I lived in Mumbai for a long time and I have lived in California and its the same imbalance in each society, who has the better deal, would we do it?
Back to Navin's question...
I think we've had some very interesting comments on the 901, and also on Bose speakers in general. But let's see if we can get back to Navin's question because it is really interesting.
Navin, you want to play with small full-ranges, and want to build good speakers. IMHO, emulating the 901 is not the best way to do it. Let's just forget how good or bad the 901 was... let's focus on this new idea: if we had good FR drivers, would we get good results if we built something like the 901? IMHO, no. And many others in this thread have already said why, better than I could. Basically, I don't think that direct-reflecting approach gives good, clean, detailed, listenable (add your fav adjective) sound.
In that case, if you have a bunch of cheap, good, small FR drivers, what would you do? I know what I'd do. If WAF was flexible, I'd build an OB line array, and add a subwoofer. If WAF was very serious, I'd build a sealed line array like the Nonsuch of 7V or a ported line array like the Straight 8 of Bottlehead, and (as before) add a subwoofer.
With this, I think I've run out of all useful knowledge and information I had on the matter. Konnichiwa. Sayonara. Chinchpokli. Whatever.
I think we've had some very interesting comments on the 901, and also on Bose speakers in general. But let's see if we can get back to Navin's question because it is really interesting.
Navin, you want to play with small full-ranges, and want to build good speakers. IMHO, emulating the 901 is not the best way to do it. Let's just forget how good or bad the 901 was... let's focus on this new idea: if we had good FR drivers, would we get good results if we built something like the 901? IMHO, no. And many others in this thread have already said why, better than I could. Basically, I don't think that direct-reflecting approach gives good, clean, detailed, listenable (add your fav adjective) sound.
In that case, if you have a bunch of cheap, good, small FR drivers, what would you do? I know what I'd do. If WAF was flexible, I'd build an OB line array, and add a subwoofer. If WAF was very serious, I'd build a sealed line array like the Nonsuch of 7V or a ported line array like the Straight 8 of Bottlehead, and (as before) add a subwoofer.
With this, I think I've run out of all useful knowledge and information I had on the matter.
Konnichiwa. Sayonara. Chinchpokli. Whatever.Having just googled for a picture, the 901s are not the speaker I thought they were.
Was it Bose who created the flower-petal array speaker? 5 drivers, open-baffled, run full range with EQ that were used to create a summed acoustic centre that was effectively fixed, and located about a foot beyond the front of the array...
Or so the theory went.
Was it Bose who created the flower-petal array speaker? 5 drivers, open-baffled, run full range with EQ that were used to create a summed acoustic centre that was effectively fixed, and located about a foot beyond the front of the array...
Or so the theory went.
Re: Back to Navin's question...
One line of caution in this approach. You have to choose your FR drivers carefully. If you go the Nonsuch route, you can do without a tweeter, but then you need 2" drivers. The 3" TB drivers may be the largest drivers you can use this way. If you want to go with Straight 8 approach, you can probably even do without a subwoofer for all but the most bottom-heavy material, but then you'll need a tweeter. You seem to be talking of 4" FR drivers... I'd suggest the Straight 8 with tweeter rather than the tweeter-less Nonsuch. In fact, an array of at least 6 4" drivers with a ribbon tweeter xo'd at something like 4-5Khz would be very interesting. Even the JX92S (expensive, I know) is less than 4" effective diaphragm diameter... it's just 92mm. The Bolton 16SJW22 I'm using for midbass is about 110-115mm... less than five inches, though Bolton classifies it as a 6.5" driver. They all need tweeters, even the JX92S. There's no such thing as a free lunch or full range.tcpip said:
My memory is probably a bit iffy on this, but wasn't the ratio of front to back drivers on the 901 chosen to emulate the estimated direct to reflected amount of sound in a typical concert hall? Nothing wrong with such an idea which can give satisfactory and unique results for many applications, but I imagine this concept relates to absolute audio accuracy somewhat like adding digital acoustical ambience processing to a system with front radiating speakers would.
Perhaps not wrt pay, and it's voluntary illegal immigration that begets unlawful labor practices which begs the question of why the Mexican government doesn't do more to promote the welfare ot its citizens. Most countries would consider such a large ongoing emigration a national calamity but the Mexican government is quite accepting of this thing.
navin said:
Before you go about auditioning the Bose HVC, know that the impedance of each driver is below 1ohm each! All 9 drivers are wired in series to get 8 ohms.
Also I own a pair of 901's and are ably working as my surrounds, thats where thet do a good job of diffusion and high headroom duties.
The REALprob WR to bose
im amazed that no one has mentioned this! maybe no one else is as old as me LOL When bose 901 first came out , JBL made a "BOSE KILLER" tape from session master tapes! this was some tape, (reel to reel 15 ips) absolutely breathtaking . The BOSE KILLER section was a test tone of 40 hZ as i recall, with a comentater speaking over it. The Doppler and IM distortion was so bad that the voice was totally garbled by it. You couldnt understand 1 word !
LOL ok lets move on ,. I use sealed Jordan JX92s sats with 2 12"sealed subs, all near field. The sats are in 8L porcelain pots reshaped like eggs. the pots are INERT! This is a very ballanced system and sounds great on everything from DSOTM to Bach harpicord. As i write this, the heartbeats on DSOTM are actually shaking the house as the highs soar unmolested. Yes its bi amped Multiple units arent really required for less than 100DB music " Quality has no regrets"
If it aint Baroque, fix it
im amazed that no one has mentioned this! maybe no one else is as old as me LOL When bose 901 first came out , JBL made a "BOSE KILLER" tape from session master tapes! this was some tape, (reel to reel 15 ips) absolutely breathtaking . The BOSE KILLER section was a test tone of 40 hZ as i recall, with a comentater speaking over it. The Doppler and IM distortion was so bad that the voice was totally garbled by it. You couldnt understand 1 word !
LOL ok lets move on ,. I use sealed Jordan JX92s sats with 2 12"sealed subs, all near field. The sats are in 8L porcelain pots reshaped like eggs. the pots are INERT! This is a very ballanced system and sounds great on everything from DSOTM to Bach harpicord. As i write this, the heartbeats on DSOTM are actually shaking the house as the highs soar unmolested. Yes its bi amped
Multiple units arent really required for less than 100DB music " Quality has no regrets"If it aint Baroque, fix it
Re: The REALprob WR to bose
Appology taken. Next time you are in town we'll drown u in beer and kebabs. serously drop by and take advantage of some indian hospitality.
ATC makes very good drivers. Rolls Royce makes very good cars. Neither of them sell in as many unit or as many dollars/pounds as Bose or GM (no offence to GM owners just that a GM car is not a Rolls Royce). I know the feeling. Our products are also too expensive for the Indian market and many other markets so we export to those markets that are willing to pay us. Each price point has a customer. Just that the pyramid gets smaller at the top.
Funny I presently shuttle between these 2 states (Mumbai and CA). Pls drop me aprivate line and we can take part this off line.
Bose is smart. As soon as HT became the driving force in the BUSINESS of audio they positioned themselves to be there and they timed it well. I just got a call from a friend who is getting married and is renovating his apt. and he wants nothing but a Bose Acoustimass system for it. No ammount of convincing was gonna make him change his mind. Unfortunately I know of no place where he can demo a Bose and Dynaudio at the same time under the same conditions. Ha the POWER of marketing.
I am open to ANY suggestion to make a good speaker. OB, TL, 2 way, etc... there are only 4 criteria...
a) the speaker must be simple to build pref 2 way, 1st order
b) Very high WAF; on the order of lifestyle like B&W VM1, KEF KHT9000
c) Be able to equal my SS/ACI system in sound quality (not SPL).
d) My benchmark is a Jordan JX125/53 with JX92 for center and surround but it is a bit expensive.
DOSTM is one of my fav ref. musical scores. DO you feel the need for more highs with the JX92? How big is you JX92 box?
Paradise_Ice said:Navin I apologize for my rather blunt comment......but I still don’t think its fair, companies like ATC in the UK make speakers, at a much higher cost, but the quality is not magical in any means...What I meant to convey was Bose makes life style rubbish for yuppies and is a designer band now, Like some fashion house, With a 1000% profit margin, I lived in Mumbai for a long time and I have lived in California and its the same imbalance in each society, who has the better deal, would we do it?
Appology taken. Next time you are in town we'll drown u in beer and kebabs.
serously drop by and take advantage of some indian hospitality.ATC makes very good drivers. Rolls Royce makes very good cars. Neither of them sell in as many unit or as many dollars/pounds as Bose or GM (no offence to GM owners just that a GM car is not a Rolls Royce). I know the feeling. Our products are also too expensive for the Indian market and many other markets so we export to those markets that are willing to pay us. Each price point has a customer. Just that the pyramid gets smaller at the top.
Funny I presently shuttle between these 2 states (Mumbai and CA). Pls drop me aprivate line and we can take part this off line.
Bose is smart. As soon as HT became the driving force in the BUSINESS of audio they positioned themselves to be there and they timed it well. I just got a call from a friend who is getting married and is renovating his apt. and he wants nothing but a Bose Acoustimass system for it. No ammount of convincing was gonna make him change his mind. Unfortunately I know of no place where he can demo a Bose and Dynaudio at the same time under the same conditions. Ha the POWER of marketing.
tcpip said:The 3" TB drivers may be the largest drivers you can use this way. If you want to go with Straight 8 approach, you can probably even do without a subwoofer..You seem to be talking of 4" FR drivers.....In fact, an array of at least 6 4" drivers with a ribbon tweeter xo'd at something like 4-5Khz would be very interesting. ...They all need tweeters, even the JX92S. There's no such thing as a free lunch or full range.
I am open to ANY suggestion to make a good speaker. OB, TL, 2 way, etc... there are only 4 criteria...
a) the speaker must be simple to build pref 2 way, 1st order
b) Very high WAF; on the order of lifestyle like B&W VM1, KEF KHT9000
c) Be able to equal my SS/ACI system in sound quality (not SPL).
d) My benchmark is a Jordan JX125/53 with JX92 for center and surround but it is a bit expensive.
THOR said:
DOSTM is one of my fav ref. musical scores. DO you feel the need for more highs with the JX92? How big is you JX92 box?
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