Video is not my strong and interesting part but think you right that those transcoding tasks love multi core/threads, but that should also be possible nowadays find one that excel into both areas although producers numbers of released SKU for cpu's nowadays is some irritating fragmented, can recommend use passmark.com to defrag what single core performance really is compared to other candidates, you shall not look at their total score but click on SKU link until at the end one see only two numbers which is their real single and multi core performance, save that and compare to other saved candidates to find your best buy.
I guess it rules out a NUC then.
I doubt they would compete with a real video card installed.
So, first suggestion stands. Build a whole system using the Mac tower as frame, or get another box if you wish... for me, I like the cheese grater look!
I'm sure Win8 will play Netflix just fine, as would Win10.
BTW, why is it nobody likes 9 anymore? Windoz went from 8 to 10, just like iPhones went from 8 to X... what's wrong with the number 9.... or is it that nobody can count these days?
I did mention that I found the Mac audio driver to be a tad cleaner than their PC counterparts, but the video was nicer on the PC side. Seems like it's always give or take a bit here and there with these two.
BYRTT, single core performance, would it go to AMD and their latest Ryzen chip now? I heard good things about their new chip.
I doubt they would compete with a real video card installed.
So, first suggestion stands. Build a whole system using the Mac tower as frame, or get another box if you wish... for me, I like the cheese grater look!
I'm sure Win8 will play Netflix just fine, as would Win10.
BTW, why is it nobody likes 9 anymore? Windoz went from 8 to 10, just like iPhones went from 8 to X... what's wrong with the number 9.... or is it that nobody can count these days?
I did mention that I found the Mac audio driver to be a tad cleaner than their PC counterparts, but the video was nicer on the PC side. Seems like it's always give or take a bit here and there with these two.
BYRTT, single core performance, would it go to AMD and their latest Ryzen chip now? I heard good things about their new chip.
I'm no fanboy of either brand but in single core land and probably also thermals Intel is still ahead, Ryzen generation did really a huge change on AMD land single core performance and love that fact but this time it looks they throw their cards into high multicore value for the money, probably their next generation on smaller technology will get them close enough in single core performance.
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Soooo.... JRiver does not make use of multicores? Is that what you are saying?
A quick search mentions multithreading, but not multicores....
But the newer 64bit version looks like a winner, which can handle more memory that the old 32bit version.
Although a HD4000 from 2012 was enough to play BluRay quality video ... so How fast does a chip need to be now?
My projector is "only" 1080p, and I'm using an i3 processor with an entry level Nvidia GT640 card. I'm using a little bit of PARAM EQ and Convolution in JRiver, yet, all seems fine, good video and audio is clean... some pops when using JRiver with REW, but I assumed that was due to the drivers, not so much the computer's processing power.
A quick search mentions multithreading, but not multicores....
But the newer 64bit version looks like a winner, which can handle more memory that the old 32bit version.
Although a HD4000 from 2012 was enough to play BluRay quality video ... so How fast does a chip need to be now?
My projector is "only" 1080p, and I'm using an i3 processor with an entry level Nvidia GT640 card. I'm using a little bit of PARAM EQ and Convolution in JRiver, yet, all seems fine, good video and audio is clean... some pops when using JRiver with REW, but I assumed that was due to the drivers, not so much the computer's processing power.
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Ha ha perceval i can't say how JRiver really works in engine room when also taking video into picture, but as told in first post this subject when we talk audio it only use single core and that had been the case all the 32bit family v19 up to v23 and also includes new 64bit v23 which by the way can sound extreme high end on my hardware platforms. MS taskmanger clearly show this behavour and also over at JRiver knowledgebase you can see recommendation for audio goes for highest single core performance CPU.
How fast a chip need to be is not always the question for this use scenario, its fine that old left over hardware can do the job, but in Intel CPU land from IVY bridge and up you get much better thermals/noise behavior and much improved I/O routing, and for GPU's latest family's from AMD and Nvidia is much better into thermal/noise scenarios because in various past family's they ended unexpected long time stay onto 28nm technology.
Your claim sense Mac audio driver to be a tad cleaner than their PC counterparts think can also be duplicated in MS land but it needs one to find some seldom hardware and OS combination where driver is inbox of OS, and in this regard its good news latest two version of W10 have possibility to use new inbox driver for USB CL2 sound devices that follow the standard leaving out only those hardware that is too customized by producer. That said can often tweak sound quality on less clean drivers when we use WASAPI or ASIO and JRiver combination, think trick is to get good resolution and less interference then tap soundcard out directly into headphones/amp combination then use ASIO contolpanel and settings into JRiver's stomach to arrive at cleaner sound, it can take very long time and have many possibilities of combination but can often improve on subjective sensed quality and nothing is lost in should it not work simply shift back to defaults.
How fast a chip need to be is not always the question for this use scenario, its fine that old left over hardware can do the job, but in Intel CPU land from IVY bridge and up you get much better thermals/noise behavior and much improved I/O routing, and for GPU's latest family's from AMD and Nvidia is much better into thermal/noise scenarios because in various past family's they ended unexpected long time stay onto 28nm technology.
Your claim sense Mac audio driver to be a tad cleaner than their PC counterparts think can also be duplicated in MS land but it needs one to find some seldom hardware and OS combination where driver is inbox of OS, and in this regard its good news latest two version of W10 have possibility to use new inbox driver for USB CL2 sound devices that follow the standard leaving out only those hardware that is too customized by producer. That said can often tweak sound quality on less clean drivers when we use WASAPI or ASIO and JRiver combination, think trick is to get good resolution and less interference then tap soundcard out directly into headphones/amp combination then use ASIO contolpanel and settings into JRiver's stomach to arrive at cleaner sound, it can take very long time and have many possibilities of combination but can often improve on subjective sensed quality and nothing is lost in should it not work simply shift back to defaults.
oneplustwo,
Sounds fine continue use PS4 for video as long as all the audio correction filters are minimum phase ones, but if you get tempted down the road to use modern FIR filters that happen correct in time domain too it will create a small delay in sound that would give lip-sync problems, to get over that lip-sync problem think one need also to use JRiver for be in of control video and there should be tons of guides over there how to battle subject.
Sounds fine continue use PS4 for video as long as all the audio correction filters are minimum phase ones, but if you get tempted down the road to use modern FIR filters that happen correct in time domain too it will create a small delay in sound that would give lip-sync problems, to get over that lip-sync problem think one need also to use JRiver for be in of control video and there should be tons of guides over there how to battle subject.
Stupid question probably... Do you all typically output HDMI from the computer to an AVR (with no internal processing) to feed the integrated or separate amps? Or do HTPC sound cards have their own pre-amp outputs? I've been assuming the former but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious.
Wow, just researching sound cards and graphics cards. I have a lot to learn apparently. Seems like you could output HDMI with audio to an AVR OR you can have just the video go to a projector/TV directly and then have the audio routed through the sound card directly to the amps?
And I assume Jriver can be configured to rout accordingly in addition to syncing video and audio?
Sorry, maybe this is really basic, but HTPC stuff is new to me so bear with me.
Maybe an Asus Essence STX II on the high end or Asus Xonar DSX PCIe 7.1 on the low end? And I don't know that I need a high end graphics card since I'm not looking for a gaming solution. Just high quality 1080P really. Maybe something like the Zotac GTX 1050?
And I assume Jriver can be configured to rout accordingly in addition to syncing video and audio?
Sorry, maybe this is really basic, but HTPC stuff is new to me so bear with me.
Maybe an Asus Essence STX II on the high end or Asus Xonar DSX PCIe 7.1 on the low end? And I don't know that I need a high end graphics card since I'm not looking for a gaming solution. Just high quality 1080P really. Maybe something like the Zotac GTX 1050?
As said I'm stupid on video use cases and not the guy to ask because i never got the MTV flew and always just enjoyed the the music itself and that part of the art, but can see over their WIKI that whatever one can dream of in setup chain its almost always possible to get it work that way a user should want. Have STX II myself on dedicated JRiver computer to steer FIR controlled speaker system, and on my daily workhorse computer another JRiver run as dedicated player, such setup makes one in position correct whatever one can dream of in correction tricks and trials for better sound performance and is very satisfied using JRiver because if one like to try out other correction features than used to it don't cost a new hardware box to get there. Had PCI version ST card before STX II which by the way now sits in wesayso's spare computer : ) and can report those cards sound excellent but being honest think also less expensive ones is great sounding, its probably the feature than JRiver can be setup play tracks build in native sound stream bit perfect that makes it rock, and for that in the end probably 16bit dynamic range and S/N ratios at or below 100dB is more than enough.
You probably right don't go higher than GTX 1050 or 1050TI because it won't give any new video features and power draw will raise which probably will make computer PSU general more noisy and that not very good on a computer in charge of audio, have often experience audio stream improve when over time upgraded to newer generation of graphics cards that perform much faster acceleration inside a less power draw than the old one it exchanged. So advise is get as good specs you can afford regarding computer PSU.
JRiver have practical feature called ZONES, its kind of profile like so that one can have fast switching between for example optimized system setup listening audio and other optimized upmix/downmix when watching movies, maybe ask wesayso about this feature and lip sync because think he have that setup and optimized.
You probably right don't go higher than GTX 1050 or 1050TI because it won't give any new video features and power draw will raise which probably will make computer PSU general more noisy and that not very good on a computer in charge of audio, have often experience audio stream improve when over time upgraded to newer generation of graphics cards that perform much faster acceleration inside a less power draw than the old one it exchanged. So advise is get as good specs you can afford regarding computer PSU.
JRiver have practical feature called ZONES, its kind of profile like so that one can have fast switching between for example optimized system setup listening audio and other optimized upmix/downmix when watching movies, maybe ask wesayso about this feature and lip sync because think he have that setup and optimized.
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This seems like a good place to start: The $650 Home Theater PC Build | The Tech Buyer's Guru
I probably don't need the big drive since I will be streaming from a different computer that has the big drives. And I don't know if I need 8GB of RAM but that seems pretty standard these days. But it seems like a good balance of features and price. The optional sound card seems like a reasonable place to start as well and they seem to think the onboard graphics should be up to the task for 1080p video.
Thoughts?
I probably don't need the big drive since I will be streaming from a different computer that has the big drives. And I don't know if I need 8GB of RAM but that seems pretty standard these days. But it seems like a good balance of features and price. The optional sound card seems like a reasonable place to start as well and they seem to think the onboard graphics should be up to the task for 1080p video.
Thoughts?
You can use JRiver's audio tweaks, then send that, along the video, to the HDMI out port of your computer to the AVR.
The only thing. if I remember correctly, is that HDMI is limited to 96kHz, so no native DSD output. You can downmix DSD to 96kHz in JRiver.
Does your AVR have multi-input channels? If so, you could have a sound card with 8 outputs, feeding the AVR. Otherwise, you will be limited to HDMI.
Like Byrtt said, you could setup a zone using HDMI output for movie watching, still using JRiver's audio processing and lip sync feature.
Then, I'd get a nice USB DAC for typical 2 channels audio listening, set up a 2nd zone with that one, and get a better sound for critical music listening. Lots of options out there for nice 2-channel DACs, some with volume control, some without.
I know the Schitt are popular, but I don't know if it's a fad or a true performer. I have a NuPrime DAC and it sounds very good. Like I said, lots of options here...
The only thing. if I remember correctly, is that HDMI is limited to 96kHz, so no native DSD output. You can downmix DSD to 96kHz in JRiver.
Does your AVR have multi-input channels? If so, you could have a sound card with 8 outputs, feeding the AVR. Otherwise, you will be limited to HDMI.
Like Byrtt said, you could setup a zone using HDMI output for movie watching, still using JRiver's audio processing and lip sync feature.
Then, I'd get a nice USB DAC for typical 2 channels audio listening, set up a 2nd zone with that one, and get a better sound for critical music listening. Lots of options out there for nice 2-channel DACs, some with volume control, some without.
I know the Schitt are popular, but I don't know if it's a fad or a true performer. I have a NuPrime DAC and it sounds very good. Like I said, lots of options here...
I'm thinking about getting rid of the AVR entirely so getting a sound card with 8 outputs feeding the amps directly is what I'm aiming for. I do have an Emotiva XDA-2 that I could use for DAC purposes too but it seems like I might as well use the sound card outputs directly if it's up to the task. Easy enough to experiment though getting rid of the AVR first would be a good plan if for nothing else than to fund the new PC.
Speaking of which, here's another that seems to be a good value for $699: Amazon.com: CYBERPOWERPC Gamer Xtreme GXIVR8020A4 Desktop Gaming PC (Intel i5-7400 3.0GHz, AMD RX 580 4GB, 8GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB 7200RPM HDD, WiFi, Win 10 Home), Black - VR Ready: Computers & Accessories
Would still need the blu ray drive and the sound card but those aren't terribly expensive.
Speaking of which, here's another that seems to be a good value for $699: Amazon.com: CYBERPOWERPC Gamer Xtreme GXIVR8020A4 Desktop Gaming PC (Intel i5-7400 3.0GHz, AMD RX 580 4GB, 8GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB 7200RPM HDD, WiFi, Win 10 Home), Black - VR Ready: Computers & Accessories
Would still need the blu ray drive and the sound card but those aren't terribly expensive.
An 8-output sound card not expensive???
Hmmm... not exactly unless you're going for the cheap stuff kids use to play their mini 5.1 systems that cost $55 for the whole thing!
Your line arrays ought to have a much nicer sound card than that!
Either keep the AVR for movies using HDMI out from your PC, so you have all channels separations within the AVR and sub output as well. Then get a smaller 2 channel DAC, I know Byrtt likes his Steinberg card, or like I mentioned, other offerings out there from Schitt, NuPrime, etc...
Or, a nice 8-output card is the MOTU 8a. MOTU 8A 16x18 Thunderbolt / USB 3.0 Audio Interface with AVB | Sweetwater
Nice DAC, good reviews of MOTU when used with home theatre / music setups.
Hmmm... not exactly unless you're going for the cheap stuff kids use to play their mini 5.1 systems that cost $55 for the whole thing!
Your line arrays ought to have a much nicer sound card than that!
Either keep the AVR for movies using HDMI out from your PC, so you have all channels separations within the AVR and sub output as well. Then get a smaller 2 channel DAC, I know Byrtt likes his Steinberg card, or like I mentioned, other offerings out there from Schitt, NuPrime, etc...
Or, a nice 8-output card is the MOTU 8a. MOTU 8A 16x18 Thunderbolt / USB 3.0 Audio Interface with AVB | Sweetwater
Nice DAC, good reviews of MOTU when used with home theatre / music setups.
I see what you're saying.
Would a reasonably spec'd NUC or similar small form factor PC with an external Blu-Ray drive be up to the task of handling 1080p content and convolution through JRiver? It doesn't seem like such a heavy task given the state of technology today. I could also use the NUC fed via USB from the ADC from my turntable for 2 channel.
EDIT:
To clarify, my thinking is that if I can do everything through HDMI, then I don't need space for a stand alone sound card and thus, the small form factor PC with an external bluray drive makes sense if it's up to the task for convolution and 1080P video at the same time.
Maybe this plus a M.2 HDD and whatever bluray player.
Would a reasonably spec'd NUC or similar small form factor PC with an external Blu-Ray drive be up to the task of handling 1080p content and convolution through JRiver? It doesn't seem like such a heavy task given the state of technology today. I could also use the NUC fed via USB from the ADC from my turntable for 2 channel.
EDIT:
To clarify, my thinking is that if I can do everything through HDMI, then I don't need space for a stand alone sound card and thus, the small form factor PC with an external bluray drive makes sense if it's up to the task for convolution and 1080P video at the same time.
Maybe this plus a M.2 HDD and whatever bluray player.
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I built a small factor PC, still over twice the size of a NUC though!
It's an i3-4150 running at 3.5GHz with 16G RAM and a GT640 1Gb card, It's enough for convolution but when I measure with JRiver's drivers as the output of REW, I get occasional pops. Could be the CPU is maxed out (I didn't look, how precise is JRiver's calculation of CPU load?) or the Asio driver and hardware acting up.
Tell you the truth, I have limited knowledge of what goes under the hood of a Windoz machine, and I know Byrtt has done extensive tweaking in there. Could be some settings I need to set in my own PC to get rid of the pops... but they never happen when playing music or movies. Only when used in combination with REW.
It's an i3-4150 running at 3.5GHz with 16G RAM and a GT640 1Gb card, It's enough for convolution but when I measure with JRiver's drivers as the output of REW, I get occasional pops. Could be the CPU is maxed out (I didn't look, how precise is JRiver's calculation of CPU load?) or the Asio driver and hardware acting up.
Tell you the truth, I have limited knowledge of what goes under the hood of a Windoz machine, and I know Byrtt has done extensive tweaking in there. Could be some settings I need to set in my own PC to get rid of the pops... but they never happen when playing music or movies. Only when used in combination with REW.
I am of no use to this discussion... I use a Windows Workstation and do use the graphics card for video enhancements. The video card does become important in such a case. I like what that does for my movie experience.
I have my audio library on HD on my PC and added a NAS for the video library. I don't use disks anymore, just one time to rip to HD. Ever since my Car Audio days I got fed up switching CD's. I figured I might as well run everything from HD in my home. A lot less hassle once it's set up. My primary target is Audio, movie is often used for my Son's enjoyment, I do not collect many movies for myself. I once did and it turned out to be a collecting hobby more than a watching movies hobby.
I have a few movies with music involved, some classics and a few others. I don't need to see or watch everything anymore. The collection of kids movies is the biggest I have.
For Audio my Asus Xonar Essence ST is connected directly to the amps, with one exception, the mains are connected to a DAC which is fed with SP/Dif trough the Xonar.
Coming back to graphic cards and movies, I use the High Quality MadVR within JRiver and that's quite hungry for graphic card specs:
madVR v0.86.0 released - with Smooth Motion - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
I guess I like to tweak
I know fluid runs a NUC, he would be of more use to ask stuff like that. I guess it could be a while before he get's back online regularly though.
Edit: forgot to mention, I am able to run Netflix and route my audio trough JRiver with it's WDM driver. Within Netflix I can edit the video/audio sync to avoid lip sync. I never automated it as I rarely run Netflix anyway so this edit would need to be done any time I play something. I can also choose to just play directly to TV without using my Audio system trough HDMI (music trough HDMI to TV). I do that for TV shows I missed.
I have my audio library on HD on my PC and added a NAS for the video library. I don't use disks anymore, just one time to rip to HD. Ever since my Car Audio days I got fed up switching CD's. I figured I might as well run everything from HD in my home. A lot less hassle once it's set up. My primary target is Audio, movie is often used for my Son's enjoyment, I do not collect many movies for myself. I once did and it turned out to be a collecting hobby more than a watching movies hobby.
I have a few movies with music involved, some classics and a few others. I don't need to see or watch everything anymore. The collection of kids movies is the biggest I have.
For Audio my Asus Xonar Essence ST is connected directly to the amps, with one exception, the mains are connected to a DAC which is fed with SP/Dif trough the Xonar.
Coming back to graphic cards and movies, I use the High Quality MadVR within JRiver and that's quite hungry for graphic card specs:
madVR v0.86.0 released - with Smooth Motion - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
I guess I like to tweak
I know fluid runs a NUC, he would be of more use to ask stuff like that. I guess it could be a while before he get's back online regularly though.
Edit: forgot to mention, I am able to run Netflix and route my audio trough JRiver with it's WDM driver. Within Netflix I can edit the video/audio sync to avoid lip sync. I never automated it as I rarely run Netflix anyway so this edit would need to be done any time I play something. I can also choose to just play directly to TV without using my Audio system trough HDMI (music trough HDMI to TV). I do that for TV shows I missed.
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