Yes, you can record the speaker output with a voltage divider, and yes, the differences between different electronics can be subtle, and playing it back makes for interesting conundrums. You'll play back recordings of both amplifiers, but which amplifier will you use to listen to the recording? Will it make a difference? You should try both for playback to see. In one case you will be listening to a signal that has gone through one amplifier and then the other. In another case you will be listening to a signal that has gone through the same amplifier twice. It's possible that through one amplifier you can't hear the difference between the recordings, but through the other amplifier you can. And what about the other person's amplifier - what effect will that have?
And of course these are just the "technical" issues...
Audio DiffMaker
And of course these are just the "technical" issues...
I learned an online saying in the 1990's: "Welcome to Usenet." Now I suppose it's just "Welcome to the Internet."
I've seen such "religious" threads on this site and elsewhere as well. I've been online long enough that I often decide more and more to walk away from such things, though derails can sometimes be fun ("My system uses only the highest quality oxygen-free electrons").
Audacity can subtract two files, or invert and add, as can any decent audio file editor, but Diffmaker does substantially more:
Audio DiffMaker
the problem here as i see it is when you think that amplifiers on their own have a sound.....
truth is that we listen to the speakers exclusively for it alone produces the sounds we hear......
now the sound we listen to is the sum total of the source, the preamp, the amp and the speakers....
the design of amplifiers has come to a point that they are more competent now than ever.....
if you worry a lot about the sound of cables, amps and capacitors, then you are missing a lot of fun....it is not worth it if in the process you will harbor ill feelings towards you fellowman just because you think they were trying to put one over you.......
truth is that we listen to the speakers exclusively for it alone produces the sounds we hear......
now the sound we listen to is the sum total of the source, the preamp, the amp and the speakers....
the design of amplifiers has come to a point that they are more competent now than ever.....
if you worry a lot about the sound of cables, amps and capacitors, then you are missing a lot of fun....it is not worth it if in the process you will harbor ill feelings towards you fellowman just because you think they were trying to put one over you.......
Although i'd be very surprised if someone couldn't hear the differences that I can, i'm starting to think that perhaps i'll be wasting my time. I mean, after the signal has gone through my source > amp > converted to digital and then through someone elses source (converted back to analogue) > amp > speakers - the signals going to be mangled to hell.
As others have said, the differences are subtle and hidden away. A good example is preferring one opamp over another when both are top flight devices. The differences are there and very real but I have long come to the conclusion that you can not make or force people to understand this if they are not open to the idea.
A musician may notice the sound and feel of an instrument such as a piano changes with the humidity but could you record a note under differing humidities and isolate why.
By all means try though... it's a great idea and experiment.
Going back to what I was saying about the feedback caps - The difference between them was not subtle. The Mundorf (standard white ones) were that bad, that I couldn't live with them for any period of time. I thought this was strange myself until I read this: "Oddly enough a technically better 47uf mundorf Mcap polypropylene sounded worse- more detail but breaks the music apart and ruins the enjoyableness of the preamp so stick with the polyester which is very coherent."
That quote was taken from Acoustica > the Naim preamp mods bible > Scroll down to number 7 (Feedback capacitor)
The guy (Ced) says that polyester (MMK) sounds better in the feedback loop of a Naim preamp. I bet if he had tried the Ansar polyprop, he he'd have a different opinion.
Compare these caps (Ansar/Mundorf) in the coupling position and you'd be hard pressed to tell them apart - weird!
That quote was taken from Acoustica > the Naim preamp mods bible > Scroll down to number 7 (Feedback capacitor)
The guy (Ced) says that polyester (MMK) sounds better in the feedback loop of a Naim preamp. I bet if he had tried the Ansar polyprop, he he'd have a different opinion.
Compare these caps (Ansar/Mundorf) in the coupling position and you'd be hard pressed to tell them apart - weird!
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Just to add another extreme example.
If you take a CD player that uses opamps for the audio stages (and 99.9% do) and replace one channels opamps with 741's and then go and play a test disc of say a 1khz squarewave (which from CD looks anything but square) and overlay left and right channels on a good scope you will not see a single difference between channels.
So go for it
If you take a CD player that uses opamps for the audio stages (and 99.9% do) and replace one channels opamps with 741's and then go and play a test disc of say a 1khz squarewave (which from CD looks anything but square) and overlay left and right channels on a good scope you will not see a single difference between channels.
So go for it
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I don't worry about the sound of cables. I've tried expensive ones in the past and they made things worse to my ears. I use some cheap, copper ones and they sound fine to me.
Capacitors can sound very different, but it depends on where they are positioned in the circuit, what circuit and what capacitors - Saying that, i'm happy with the caps in my system and as a result, don't worry about them.
I just find it annoying when you KNOW you're right, but someone is telling you, you are wrong.
You misunderstand.
The papers I refer to show methods and techniques to investigate differences. They are not discussion papers on whether this amp or that amp sounds better or worse.
You really need to read the papers to discover "how" to measure the differences.
Just to add another extreme example.
If you take a CD player that uses opamps for the audio stages (and 99.9% do) and replace one channels opamps with 741's and then go and play a test disc of say a 1khz squarewave (which from CD looks anything but square) and overlay left and right channels on a good scope you will not see a single difference between channels.
So go for it
What's 741's?
I assume when you say, you wont see a difference on the scope, you will hear a difference?
They would say you're either measuring the wrong things or that you're expecting to hear a difference and that's why you do (expectation bias).
Sounds like it could get a bit complicated. I think i'll just forget it for now - unless someone comes up with a good idea, that's not going to cost me lots of time, money or chin scratching.
741's are the industry standard opamp originally introduced in the late 1960's.
The 741 Op-Amp
Yes, fitting 741's in place of modern opamps is certainly audible. It's like going from one extreme (what is now regarded as probably one of the "worst" opamps), to say the latest modern audio oriented opamp. But in real terms that difference (even audibly) isn't as great as you might think if the device is used correctly.
What I am trying to get across is that the differences you hope to record, while often real are also very subtle.
And often not real but imagined. And Im pretty sure that if you test the 741s properly you will find objective evidence. And "I can hear the difference so it must be there" is no evidence at all. Maybe you can hear it, but since so many people on these forums seem to be able to hear differences magic stones and moon phases make, how do I know your for real?
If I could get a perfectly accurate recording of the feedback caps in my amp, i'm sure even the most tone-deaf person would hear a difference. And i'm not interested in foo cables, expensive capacitors and ultra low distortion opamps (I like the NE5XX opamps) etc etc...
EDIT: Also I don't agree that quick A/B or A/B/X test prove anything. I much prefer to listen over an extended period of time to lots of different music at various volumes.
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I am more of a practical guy than a philosopher. But it seems to me, that if you really want to see if amps sound different, you might want to record them driving a resistive load. Different amp circuits can respond differently to the reactive loads a speaker presents to an amp. Certain perfectly fine amps don't always get along with certain perfectly fine speakers. A resistor would remove the reactive element, so you would be recording the pure output of the amp. You could then do it again with speakers, and see what difference that makes. The differences you hear may well be the differences in the amps reacting to the speaker rather than inherent amp sound differences.
And a thought on differences between caps. When doing a substitution test, it is imperative that you measure the caps. Just because two caps both SAY .47uf on them doesn't mean they both ARE .47uf in value. A couple types of 20% caps can be widely different in value and still be within their specs. And that certainly can affect the sound.
And a thought on differences between caps. When doing a substitution test, it is imperative that you measure the caps. Just because two caps both SAY .47uf on them doesn't mean they both ARE .47uf in value. A couple types of 20% caps can be widely different in value and still be within their specs. And that certainly can affect the sound.
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