English To Subjective Translation?.........
After that we were able to tune the monitors a whole lot better than previous, and then we were able to tune the FOH sound a whole lot better than before.
This is normal setup procedure and we got a much bigger and nicer result than previously.
The band told me that the monitors were great, and that they had a great on-stage sound.
I have spoken to Justin since and he reports the different show that he did on Saturday was good, but not the same dynamics, power, clarity and niceness as Friday night - and his ears were tired and shut down after.
There have been other shows with same results.
Eric.
Yes initially, and we both noted the same differences on pre-recorded music (CD) - deeper and clearer lows, clearer mids, more extended and clearer highs.Steve Eddy said:
After that we were able to tune the monitors a whole lot better than previous, and then we were able to tune the FOH sound a whole lot better than before.
This is normal setup procedure and we got a much bigger and nicer result than previously.
The band told me that the monitors were great, and that they had a great on-stage sound.
I have spoken to Justin since and he reports the different show that he did on Saturday was good, but not the same dynamics, power, clarity and niceness as Friday night - and his ears were tired and shut down after.
There have been other shows with same results.
Eric.
kuribo said:
Hehehe. I remember once some years ago not at a bar, but at a BBS party (back in the day of dialup computer BBSes, it was common for users to get together for parties, etc.) a rather impromtu "band" some of us had formed performed Mother from Pink Floyd's The Wall (I did vocals and lead guitar).
Afterward several people walked (staggered?) up to me and said "Dewd! That sounded just like it came off the record!"
So there ya have it. I can sing and play guitar just as good as David Gilmour.
se
Subjectively Good Sounding Is The Bottom Line........
Sound engineering and excessive alcohol do not mix and it is seen as extremely bad form to be seen getting drunk on the job - Justin and I had two drinks each all night.
This band play rocking blues, and attract a generally more mature audience - mid thirties and up.
Many of these people are there for music appreciation and a pleasant night out, and not to get blind drunk or bag a stray root - many couples were there and drink driving laws are a big factor nowadays in general sobriety in the audience.
When multiple reasonably sober people are telling you that they are liking what they hear (including listeners who have heard this band many times) they are saying so for a reason.
Objective measurements are of course useful for explaining observations, but subjectively good sound is what it is all about, and what the audience hears.
Are there any Perth members here who can make it to the Indie Bar on Friday nights ? - none of you know what you are missing out on.
Eric.
Sound engineering and excessive alcohol do not mix and it is seen as extremely bad form to be seen getting drunk on the job - Justin and I had two drinks each all night.
This band play rocking blues, and attract a generally more mature audience - mid thirties and up.
Many of these people are there for music appreciation and a pleasant night out, and not to get blind drunk or bag a stray root - many couples were there and drink driving laws are a big factor nowadays in general sobriety in the audience.
When multiple reasonably sober people are telling you that they are liking what they hear (including listeners who have heard this band many times) they are saying so for a reason.
Objective measurements are of course useful for explaining observations, but subjectively good sound is what it is all about, and what the audience hears.
Are there any Perth members here who can make it to the Indie Bar on Friday nights ? - none of you know what you are missing out on.
Eric.
Re: English To Swedish Language Barrier ?.........
I was referring to the following claim yo made, which should
be clear since I quoted it.
I have also frequently seen similar claims in previous postings
by you on the forum.
If you are referring to me, I have never claimed that, and I
even repeated such a disclaimer in my previous posting, but
maybe you didn't make it to the end of what I wrote?
mrfeedback said:
I was referring to the following claim yo made, which should
be clear since I quoted it.
mrfeedback said:
I have also frequently seen similar claims in previous postings
by you on the forum.
If you are referring to me, I have never claimed that, and I
even repeated such a disclaimer in my previous posting, but
maybe you didn't make it to the end of what I wrote?
Re: English To Subjective Translation?.........
Ok, so what these people experienced WASN'T just the result of your "few leads patched into a big system" but ALSO your tweaking and tuning of the monitors and FOH system. Which you say was tweaked and tuned differently than it had been previously.
Therefore, these people would have experienced a DIFFERENT sound compared to previously even if your "few leads patched into a big system" HADN'T been patched into the system.
Um, so how do you know that you wouldn't have got the exact same response from these people had you simply tuned the monitors and FOH system differently (i.e. the same way you had it for Friday night) but left out the "few leads patched into a big system"?
se
mrfeedback said:
Ok, so what these people experienced WASN'T just the result of your "few leads patched into a big system" but ALSO your tweaking and tuning of the monitors and FOH system. Which you say was tweaked and tuned differently than it had been previously.
Therefore, these people would have experienced a DIFFERENT sound compared to previously even if your "few leads patched into a big system" HADN'T been patched into the system.
Um, so how do you know that you wouldn't have got the exact same response from these people had you simply tuned the monitors and FOH system differently (i.e. the same way you had it for Friday night) but left out the "few leads patched into a big system"?
se
Re: Subjectively Good Sounding Is The Bottom Line........
But the reason could have been the simple fact that the monitors and FOH system were tweaked and tuned differently than previously and that your "few leads patched into a big system" had nothing to do with their reaction at all.
When you change multiple variables at the same time, you can't tell which variable(s) are responsible for the observed effect.
se
mrfeedback said:
But the reason could have been the simple fact that the monitors and FOH system were tweaked and tuned differently than previously and that your "few leads patched into a big system" had nothing to do with their reaction at all.
When you change multiple variables at the same time, you can't tell which variable(s) are responsible for the observed effect.
se
In You Never Try, Then You Never Know........
Thanks John,
Yes I am only sharing subjective experiences, and it seems that some around are unfortunately unable to grasp this.
One proof of audibility is an experienced fellow sound guy immediately saying that he hears differences and describing them in the same terms as others .
Another proof of audibility is professional musicians saying that they hear the same differences in their instruments and stating that they find this much preferable - that means several professional audio people are hearing differences and describing them similarly.
I really am beginning to believe that either some members here are totally tone deaf, and just want to make useless argument, or both.
Sensible and sensitive members I have infinite time for.
Eric.
johnferrier said:
Thanks John,
Yes I am only sharing subjective experiences, and it seems that some around are unfortunately unable to grasp this.
One proof of audibility is an experienced fellow sound guy immediately saying that he hears differences and describing them in the same terms as others .
Another proof of audibility is professional musicians saying that they hear the same differences in their instruments and stating that they find this much preferable - that means several professional audio people are hearing differences and describing them similarly.
I really am beginning to believe that either some members here are totally tone deaf, and just want to make useless argument, or both.
Sensible and sensitive members I have infinite time for.
Eric.
Re: Re: Subjectively Good Sounding Is The Bottom Line........
Sure changing more than one variable is at work here, but the overall result was better than we have been able to attain previously, and as reported to me by Justin, the same system with the same tuning did not have the same musicality the next night.
Steve, I do know what I am hearing OK.
Eric.
You need to read this bit again - "Yes initially, and we both noted the same differences on pre-recorded music (CD) - deeper and clearer lows, clearer mids, more extended and clearer highs. "Steve Eddy said:
Sure changing more than one variable is at work here, but the overall result was better than we have been able to attain previously, and as reported to me by Justin, the same system with the same tuning did not have the same musicality the next night.
Steve, I do know what I am hearing OK.
Eric.
Re: In You Never Try, Then You Never Know........
I think you are turning things around. Those of us whom you
are probably referring to have no problema at all to grasp
this. To the contrarty, we are fully convinced that it is subjective
findings you are reporting. The problem is that we frequently
see you reporting them in a way that seems to indicate that
you yourself do not think of them as subjective findings.
mrfeedback said:
I think you are turning things around. Those of us whom you
are probably referring to have no problema at all to grasp
this. To the contrarty, we are fully convinced that it is subjective
findings you are reporting. The problem is that we frequently
see you reporting them in a way that seems to indicate that
you yourself do not think of them as subjective findings.
Re: Re: In You Never Try, Then You Never Know........
Eric has no control of how others read his posts (of course, that is also a subjective experience). It is possible that people read into them more (and less) than his is expects.
So, he just stated, "I am only sharing subjective experiences". Try reading his posts that way. If you hadn't in the past, try now.
Part of why he may seem more strongly about this is that he is actively working with others that subjectively experience similiar things (and again that is his experience). So he is in a way, expressing the subjective feelings of a group of people. Still not "proof", but lends a bit more credibility to his "story".
JF
Christer said:
Eric has no control of how others read his posts (of course, that is also a subjective experience). It is possible that people read into them more (and less) than his is expects.
So, he just stated, "I am only sharing subjective experiences". Try reading his posts that way. If you hadn't in the past, try now.
Part of why he may seem more strongly about this is that he is actively working with others that subjectively experience similiar things (and again that is his experience). So he is in a way, expressing the subjective feelings of a group of people. Still not "proof", but lends a bit more credibility to his "story".
JF
mrfeedback said:
OK, fair enough when you state it clearly like this. However,
since you often make claims without saying it is based on
this personal definition of proof, you must accept that you
confuse people who prefer to discuss things in terms of
generally agreed-upon terminology instead of guessing what
each individual mean by the words. I could decide to swap
the definitions of bass and treble when I post, but it would
cause a lot of confusion and people would get mad at me if
I insisted on making claims based on these personal definitions
of bass and treble without telling that I use them in a different
way than others.
For The Tenth Time............
The difference between an idiot and a computer is that with a computer you only have to punch the information in once.
Christer, I am glad that you now at long last understand, so that I do not have to communicate with you at Kindergarten level in future - by all means correct me if I am wrong.
Eric.
The difference between an idiot and a computer is that with a computer you only have to punch the information in once.
Christer, I am glad that you now at long last understand, so that I do not have to communicate with you at Kindergarten level in future - by all means correct me if I am wrong.
Eric.
Re: Re: Re: In You Never Try, Then You Never Know........
One problem is that Eric usually cannot comprehend other
peoples posts. He accuses people like Steve of causing mischief
when it is clear that he doesn't understand that Steve means
exactly what he writes, no more no less, but rather seems to
read a lot of strange things into it. He has also shown, both in
this and other threads, that he is incapable of, or refuses to,
understand what I write. He almost never tries to address what I
write when I "complain" about him, but rather starts discussing
other irrelevant things. In my opinion Eric is a person who often
causes mischief in threads like this one by his attitude towards
other people. Steve isn't, although I know there are a lot of
people who have a different opinion there.
Yes, I could just ignore the way he makes his claims, since I
know it is just subjective findings whatever he thinks himself
about them. However, his frequent arrogance towards people
not sharing his view is often very irritating in my opinion. I had
decided not to try discussing this with him again after an
unsuccessful attempt to do so a while ago. However, his
accusations of Steve as a troublemaker in this thread, when it
is, in my opinion, rather Eric himself causing the trouble made
me change my mind and make yet another attempt to try
explaining to Eric that it is, in my opinion, rather himself not
understanding what other people write. It was stupid of me
to do that, since I am obviously speaking to deaf ears, just as
last time I tried it. It seems the conclusion ends up the same
as last time, the only thing Eric and I seem to agree on is that
we disagree.
johnferrier said:
One problem is that Eric usually cannot comprehend other
peoples posts. He accuses people like Steve of causing mischief
when it is clear that he doesn't understand that Steve means
exactly what he writes, no more no less, but rather seems to
read a lot of strange things into it. He has also shown, both in
this and other threads, that he is incapable of, or refuses to,
understand what I write. He almost never tries to address what I
write when I "complain" about him, but rather starts discussing
other irrelevant things. In my opinion Eric is a person who often
causes mischief in threads like this one by his attitude towards
other people. Steve isn't, although I know there are a lot of
people who have a different opinion there.
Yes, I could just ignore the way he makes his claims, since I
know it is just subjective findings whatever he thinks himself
about them. However, his frequent arrogance towards people
not sharing his view is often very irritating in my opinion. I had
decided not to try discussing this with him again after an
unsuccessful attempt to do so a while ago. However, his
accusations of Steve as a troublemaker in this thread, when it
is, in my opinion, rather Eric himself causing the trouble made
me change my mind and make yet another attempt to try
explaining to Eric that it is, in my opinion, rather himself not
understanding what other people write. It was stupid of me
to do that, since I am obviously speaking to deaf ears, just as
last time I tried it. It seems the conclusion ends up the same
as last time, the only thing Eric and I seem to agree on is that
we disagree.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: In You Never Try, Then You Never Know........
Normally yes, but with Eric I am starting to give up all hopes
of that, since he keeps insisting on misreading what I and many
others write and avoids discussing the actual issues we are
adressing and resort to personal insults and discussion of
other irrelevant things.
johnferrier said:
Normally yes, but with Eric I am starting to give up all hopes
of that, since he keeps insisting on misreading what I and many
others write and avoids discussing the actual issues we are
adressing and resort to personal insults and discussion of
other irrelevant things.
Christer when it is stated from the outset that that we are talking about subjective findings and experienced professional audio users subjective group findings at that, you ought to understand that we are not talking about findings from still wet behind the ears 17 year olds whose sum audio experience is Eminem on an Akai shelf system.
There are all kinds of suggestions from you and Steve that this group are deluded.
I think you are slow in understanding that us kinds of guys have heard so many different items of equipment that we don't care a hoot about appearances, marketing hype or price tag and instead rely on our own sonic judgements based on actual usage.
An interesting thing is that audio users at this level typically return common actual usage subjective findings, and expressed in the same kinds of terms and language.
What I am saying is that when groups of audio professionals are saying the same thing, there is pretty much always merit in what they are saying, and these findings are to be taken note of.
Christer, if you had at all read deeply enough to recognise this you would be asking questions about what kinds of differences we are reporting instead of going down the track that you have followed.
Eric.
There are all kinds of suggestions from you and Steve that this group are deluded.
I think you are slow in understanding that us kinds of guys have heard so many different items of equipment that we don't care a hoot about appearances, marketing hype or price tag and instead rely on our own sonic judgements based on actual usage.
An interesting thing is that audio users at this level typically return common actual usage subjective findings, and expressed in the same kinds of terms and language.
What I am saying is that when groups of audio professionals are saying the same thing, there is pretty much always merit in what they are saying, and these findings are to be taken note of.
Christer, if you had at all read deeply enough to recognise this you would be asking questions about what kinds of differences we are reporting instead of going down the track that you have followed.
Eric.
johnferrier said:
I have made two attempts recently, and if he still seems not
to understand or doesn't want to understand, then I see no
point in making any further attempts for the moment. I am not
his teacher, he is not my student, so there is really no reason
to make any further attempts to explain to him what I have
been trying to say.
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