The pots are irrelevant as this was done in a hotel room, not his workshop. There is no mention of them being adjusted during listening tests, so each could have been replaced by one or two resistors of equivalent values with no difference.BFNY said:
By the accounts of the listeners involved, they could not tell any difference between the devices under test, so he did equal the other amp.
Are you being serious? He took a modest cost production SS amp, and with some judicious tweaking made it sound indistinguishable from a very much more expensive unit that he was given, with the challenge of emulating it. Which he did. Successfully.BFNY said:
This is a DIY forum. There are many, many examples of people going to heroic efforts to make custom gear, which if you factored into a modest labour charge for the hours involved, would make their efforts very expensive. But I would suspect that is not a large consideration for many. It certainly isn't for me.
So it took him a couple of attempts, it was done under less than ideal working conditions
Wow, what a load of BS. Stereopile defined the parameters of the test, then Carver did his work in a short period of time, under less than ideal conditions and the 'golden ears' could pick no difference, when they couldn't tell what they were listening to. Only when they could see and know could they tell a difference which simply shows that all their biases and preconceptions got in the way.BFNY said:
This article remained only in hard copy form until some people started scanning it and posting it and JA got all huffy about it on AA. Some time after that they added it to their website, but still were not intellectually honest enough in the article or notes that the amplifier was a large tube unit, a CJ Premier. Before this article was put on their site, I had been sharing around the scanned version. many responses were to the effect that 'interesting, but it would have been more so if the other amplifier had been a tube unit'. When informed that it was a tube amp, the silence has been deafening.
The simple fact is, they set the challenge and all the rules involved and they got beat. But rather than simply say that, more excuses were made about prolonged listening sessions etc, not because that is true, but because they would have no reason to exist after being shown that their hearing is not as great as they would like us believe and they couldn't tell the difference.
What is the point of a subjective review magazine that can't tell the difference between amplifiers? None. Except advertising, which is what they do best.
The "other" article was post 22 here, not the Carver one
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1830854#post1830854'
Looks like some one has a real keen interest in this old Carver test.
I was only commenting that most people do not have the knowledge, experience, skill, and test gear that Bob Carver has. To say it is "easy" to do what he did, is like saying it is "easy" to get a EE degree, start and run a successful audio company, obtain the best start of the art test gear, and then develop a methodology for copying the transfer function and sound of one amp to another. He didn't do it by "ear", that is clear.
I don't think I ever commented on the results of the test (won't touch that). My point is that assuming he did it, that does not imply others can easily do it also. Even if they had the 12 boxes of test gear.
And to comment on the outcome, I do recall Carver marketing and selling an amp that they claimed was the transfer function equivalent of their high end $40K tube amp, called a Silver Seven or something like that.
I don't recall that the "copy" amp was ever a big hit in the audio world. So then, if it "worked", why wasn't the transfer function amp a big hit? Why has no one else ever copied the idea ? Maybe someone else remembers that one?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1830854#post1830854'
Looks like some one has a real keen interest in this old Carver test.
I was only commenting that most people do not have the knowledge, experience, skill, and test gear that Bob Carver has. To say it is "easy" to do what he did, is like saying it is "easy" to get a EE degree, start and run a successful audio company, obtain the best start of the art test gear, and then develop a methodology for copying the transfer function and sound of one amp to another. He didn't do it by "ear", that is clear.
I don't think I ever commented on the results of the test (won't touch that). My point is that assuming he did it, that does not imply others can easily do it also. Even if they had the 12 boxes of test gear.
And to comment on the outcome, I do recall Carver marketing and selling an amp that they claimed was the transfer function equivalent of their high end $40K tube amp, called a Silver Seven or something like that.
I don't recall that the "copy" amp was ever a big hit in the audio world. So then, if it "worked", why wasn't the transfer function amp a big hit? Why has no one else ever copied the idea ? Maybe someone else remembers that one?
I agree, people used computer modeling and DSP in the guitar amp world to emulate the tube sound, but the big bucks still go to the ones that are old and glow. Something about those old RCA black plate 6L6GCs or Mullard EL-34s that makes one a member of an exclusive club.
And even Carver later in the Sunfire stuff was not content to just tell people the gear had tubes inside. He made sure to put a glass window on the front so you could actually see it glow.
Speaking of glow, check out the Silver Sevens, of which apparently 10 pair were made
http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB3/gallery/image.php?album_id=13&image_id=501
The transfer function copy of it, the silver seven-t, was apparenty not a great success with all those who tried it
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=133335
Bob
And even Carver later in the Sunfire stuff was not content to just tell people the gear had tubes inside. He made sure to put a glass window on the front so you could actually see it glow.
Speaking of glow, check out the Silver Sevens, of which apparently 10 pair were made
http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB3/gallery/image.php?album_id=13&image_id=501
The transfer function copy of it, the silver seven-t, was apparenty not a great success with all those who tried it
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=133335
Bob
For many, the allure of the glowing bottle is transcendent. It is a bit like seeing fire for the first time I'm afraid. I think the coolest glowing bottles I have ever seen were in a lighthouse near Point Reyes in California. I haven't been in a lot of lighthouses mind you, but it was very neat.
A friend of mine most recently almost purchased an amplifier based on the beautiful chassis and glowing bottles, so sticking a window in the front to show off the magic makes perfect sense from a marketing standpoint. To remain solvent a company must move product.
With respect to guitar players, the reason we stick with tubes are as follows:
1. Guitarists are creatures of habit evidenced by the mass proliferation of the Tele, Strat, Les Paul, Jazz bass, P-Bass, valve amps and 50+ years of copies of all of the above.
2. TONE! Modeling falls short. Way short if you REALLY care about tone. It does offer a phenomenal amout of flexibility in a very compact space though. Oh, and did I say TONE?
A friend of mine most recently almost purchased an amplifier based on the beautiful chassis and glowing bottles, so sticking a window in the front to show off the magic makes perfect sense from a marketing standpoint. To remain solvent a company must move product.
With respect to guitar players, the reason we stick with tubes are as follows:
1. Guitarists are creatures of habit evidenced by the mass proliferation of the Tele, Strat, Les Paul, Jazz bass, P-Bass, valve amps and 50+ years of copies of all of the above.
2. TONE! Modeling falls short. Way short if you REALLY care about tone. It does offer a phenomenal amout of flexibility in a very compact space though. Oh, and did I say TONE?
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.