ak_47_boy said:
Inductance is a property of the physical structure- i.e. a long, metallic conductor. Two pieces of wire that are the same diameter and length have the same inductance no matter what the wires are made of.
The only "brightness" associated with silver plated wire is the shininess of the sliver compared to copper. All other effects are imagined by people with imaginations limited to assigning audio characteristics to match optical or other obvious physical characteristics. Hence, silver wire sounds "bright", tube amps sound "warm", solid state amps sound "cold" (unless they are class A, then they magically sound "warm"!), etc.
You can't measure the effect because there is none to measure.
I_F
sharpi31 said:
You are absolutely correct. I had, in a previous life, installed OFBC (Oxygen Free Bare Copper) speaker wire in my various car audio installations. A few years later, when removing the wiring (putting car up for sale, salvaging cables, etc), I noticed the stranded wires were completely coated in green oxidation, which is most certainly an insulator. This condition was worst at the ends and splices, where the environment was able to gain access to the copper. All splices were even shrink tubed; the oxygen still got in.
Would it have been silver coated, oxidation would have taken place to some degree, but the by products would have been conductive, as opposed to insulating. I can see little reason how this would hinder performance more than oxidized copper.
Same reason why low level contacts in relays are either gold or silver plated; the oxidation of copper would prevent good contact resistance in applications where the contact does not experience mild arcing events which burn off oxidation. Contacts in power transformers are also migrating over to silver plating, as copper reacts poorly to trace sulfur found in the oil. It's all about the interface.
We can learn a little from coaxial applications, too. Copper coated steel is not uncommon in RF, as the skin effect drives the electrons to the outside of the conductor. So with high frequencies, we know the coating of the conductor is more critical than the conductor material itself.
We may have only minor-to-little skin effect with audio frequencies, but nonetheless it exists at 10kHz.
I guess as a general rule I would pick the conductor that is less susceptible to high resistance oxidation. Less than being a skin effect issue, I think it has more to do with reliability over years of service. This I have personally witnessed.
Hey Zig,
Amen!
Look, I am just a beginner in this and you all might tell me shut up and go home (I am home?) but every stranded copper lamp cord I have ever cut open (including some expensive extension cords) have been oxidized and most become pretty chalky. It seems unprotected pure stranded copper gets this way (painful because it is more expensive) sometimes very fast because it has been waiting all its life to hook up with some hot Oxygen molecules.
Now I would think that if different wire coatings (insulation) can change Inductance and Capacitance, imagine what significant oxidation can add to that? Maybe even change the resistance too?
Now this is all measureable from what I read. You don't buy any amps, cd players, etc. new from the dealer with oxidized wire. I haven't seen any threads on this site about a DIY Mod changing the new shiny wire for oxidized wire so there has to be SOMETHING to this.
In a perfect world (if everything stayed new) I would say whatever for wire (except maybe for the insulator and twists). But since that is not reality (things break and oxidize), I am going with wire that stays as close the original condition (new) as I can afford. That sound is what the manufacturer relies upon to make the sale to us. Same with the Mods we do. If the wire is too bright maybe other things might not need to be so bright. Ya know, warmer op amps, etc.
Gold and Silver plating do apply but don't forget Rhodium too. Especially for jacks and connectors.
Now something I think is interesting is how the different insulators might impact the sound. Now that is measureable and worth fighting over! (Kidding guys)
Should I shut up now? I am already home....
Happy Modding!
Regards//Keith
Amen!
Look, I am just a beginner in this and you all might tell me shut up and go home (I am home?) but every stranded copper lamp cord I have ever cut open (including some expensive extension cords) have been oxidized and most become pretty chalky. It seems unprotected pure stranded copper gets this way (painful because it is more expensive) sometimes very fast because it has been waiting all its life to hook up with some hot Oxygen molecules.
Now I would think that if different wire coatings (insulation) can change Inductance and Capacitance, imagine what significant oxidation can add to that? Maybe even change the resistance too?
Now this is all measureable from what I read. You don't buy any amps, cd players, etc. new from the dealer with oxidized wire. I haven't seen any threads on this site about a DIY Mod changing the new shiny wire for oxidized wire so there has to be SOMETHING to this.
In a perfect world (if everything stayed new) I would say whatever for wire (except maybe for the insulator and twists). But since that is not reality (things break and oxidize), I am going with wire that stays as close the original condition (new) as I can afford. That sound is what the manufacturer relies upon to make the sale to us. Same with the Mods we do. If the wire is too bright maybe other things might not need to be so bright. Ya know, warmer op amps, etc.
Gold and Silver plating do apply but don't forget Rhodium too. Especially for jacks and connectors.
Now something I think is interesting is how the different insulators might impact the sound. Now that is measureable and worth fighting over! (Kidding guys)
Should I shut up now? I am already home....
Happy Modding!
Regards//Keith
rdf said:
That silver wire sounds bright? I couldn't agree more.
Anecdotes do not constitute proof.
Suggested reading:
http://quinnell.us/methods/misperception.html
I_F
I_Forgot said:
Dear Forgot
At risk of disappointing you there were no engineers involved at designing this. It's not a commercial product but merely my design. Not that it makes any difference but it's based on a voltage output balanced dac feeding an opamp summing/filtering stage. This followed by a discrete line amp. The line amp eventually became balanced and incorporated the filtering so the opamp was really superfluous. I left it in place just to be able to compare the audible effect with and without the opamp. The difference, as already mentioned, was not spectacular and certainly less obvious than moving the case between a Symposium-style shelf on my rack and a rigid but resonating metal speaker stand (it's quite horrible, i use it as a soldering iron stand).
Sorry, your "big lesson" in engineering evangelism didn't quite work out. Maybe next time?
I_Forgot said:
For the purposes of accuracy it's plated wire which sounds excessively bright. And it may really depend on the plating, i've just had bad luck with it.
Well treated pure silver wire does not really sound bright. Some of the wires i have are quite mellow.
You should get your facts right before agreeing
I_Forgot said:
That was my point of course, which you knew and chose to avoid for lack of any real evidence to support your conjectures. I have no problems with people who disagree and consider the perception of wire differences as delusionary, I'm completely aware of its lack of scientific underpinning. I have major problems with tactics which misrepresent and do disservice to science while claiming it as high ground.
SY represents the skeptical position with the proper respect for scientific process and has a strong position for it. He makes good arguments. Your link, was it anything more than a slight, assuming this is 'golly gosh' new information for the unwashed? Your explanation as 'imaginations limited' was little better than an "Ad hominem", "Anecdotal", "Argument from Authority"; "Assuming the Answer" and an "Avoidance of Positive Information" when presented without evidence. "I find it interesting that you miss the big lesson of the whole exercise which is that the engineers who designed the thing included the op-amp for a reason", is it anything more than another ad hominem coupled to an appeal to authority? I've repaired enough of 'professionally designed', accounting driven commercial junk to find the argument unconvincing and naive. If you're going to talk the talk, walk the walk and present evidence for conjectures.
analog_sa said:
OK, so I failed to understand the point of your first post. You said you removed an opamp and were surprised to find that the thing sounded different, but it was you who put the thing in there in the first place, presumably for a reason, but judging by your last post, I guess not.
So the point of the first post was not to make a point about op-amps, but to talk about your subjective impression of the metal stand the thing was sitting on? Or have I missed it yet again?
This is getting too deep for me.
I_F
I used to use stranded mil-spec silver plated wire in PTFE. I found it grainy and a bit rolled off in the bass- Went back to pure silver wire in cotton- music sounded more natural
and it cost about the same.
silver wire
and it cost about the same.
silver wire
I_Forgot said:
Tubes sound warm, yet mushy.
Solid state sounds powerful and gushy
Except Class A, which is warm verging on hot
Unlike Class-D, which it not
it sounds more detailed, yet colder.
Larger gauge wire for woofers, they will sound bolder.
Thin gauge speaker wire is good for tweeters, but can sound 'thin'.
There's bright silver and warm copper, and silver-copper inbetween.
Wooden tone arms sound organic,
good for acoustic.
But carbon can be tighter and magic.
especially in bass-heavy music.
Digital is accurate but lacks "soul"
but analogue has oodles more on the frequency scale.
NOS sounds analogue, but doesn't quite hit the goal.
Unless you get some $1000 wire to lift that veil.
And for spikes to make your system sharper
not darker
spend just that little bit more
for it will make your jaw hit the floor.
Just a suggestion:
Regarding your military grade wire, have you considered using tin plated copper, or nickel plated copper? These two alternatives are usually available on some websites that sell military grade wire.
I would suggest to you that your wire be coated with some kind of metal (silver, tin, nickel) to prevent corrosion. Silver is the best conductor, but I found it somewhat hard to solder to. I was using 10 gauge silver coated copper wire (with teflon insulation), and it was VERY stiff wire indeed, even though the wire was stranded, not solid.
Regarding your military grade wire, have you considered using tin plated copper, or nickel plated copper? These two alternatives are usually available on some websites that sell military grade wire.
I would suggest to you that your wire be coated with some kind of metal (silver, tin, nickel) to prevent corrosion. Silver is the best conductor, but I found it somewhat hard to solder to. I was using 10 gauge silver coated copper wire (with teflon insulation), and it was VERY stiff wire indeed, even though the wire was stranded, not solid.
This may have been a situation where your wire was acting as a heatsink, so it took longer to get to the temp the solder would flow on it. With regular solder, rosin core, and a radio shack 25W iron I have zero problem with silver coated wire but I am using 28awg and so the wire gets very hot very fast.
Did you all see this?!?
Real Teflon® Brand | DuPont? Teflon®
DuPont claiming that a lot of 'teflon' stuff out there is not in fact teflon. Yeah I know we could be buying real teflon thats really a stolen recipe but it makes you stop and think.. is that wire teflon coated??!! They claim even that plumbers tape is NOT teflon.
Real Teflon® Brand | DuPont? Teflon®
DuPont claiming that a lot of 'teflon' stuff out there is not in fact teflon. Yeah I know we could be buying real teflon thats really a stolen recipe but it makes you stop and think.. is that wire teflon coated??!! They claim even that plumbers tape is NOT teflon.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.