Hi Dave,
I was thinking to make a variant of a speaker cable, something between your CAT5 tape cables (which I cloned
), and an anti-cable. The idea is to use 19 AWG magnet wire, separated by approx. one inch piece of cardboard (or plastic,or wood), placed at every one feet or so.
Even if it may not be any better than cat5 tape variant, at least it may look interesting, if I use something like this for the separators...
I was thinking to make a variant of a speaker cable, something between your CAT5 tape cables (which I cloned
), and an anti-cable. The idea is to use 19 AWG magnet wire, separated by approx. one inch piece of cardboard (or plastic,or wood), placed at every one feet or so. Even if it may not be any better than cat5 tape variant, at least it may look interesting, if I use something like this for the separators...
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dj_oatmeal said:
the absence of proof of "why" an audible effect occurs doesn't mean the proof of its absence
this is one of those recurring circular discussions with which we seem to enjoy repeatedly gratifying ourselves - the payoff in terms of personal satisfaction must be immense, if short-lived.
"real reasons why it works"? - we may never know absolutely
planet10 said:
Well, Dave, I thought we were discussing the same thing, but maybe not. The discussion of LCR characteristics is entirely at the FR level. When you are talking about stuff 30-40dB down, you are talking skin effects, dielectric effects, cryo'ing stuff, etc. Color me naive, but I am a skeptic. I suppose that a few people with really good young ears can detect this kind of stuff, but at least for me, these things are precious close to the noise floor in a normal home setting and buried in the various distortions that are inevitable in speaker systems.
Oh, well, IMO and all of that stuff. Opinions are like .... And everyone has one!
Bob
Bob Brines said:
I guess not. The kind of difference i'm talking about have little to do with FR (unless the cable/speaker drives the amp crazy (which may happen more often than most people think), but with downward dynamic range. (ie not burying the little stuff)
It has nothing to do with young ears but well trained ear/brain. You might be surprised at how much more downward dynamic range can be had.
Have tou tried the speaker wire of which we speak?
dave
Vix said:Hi Dave,
I was thinking to make a variant of a speaker cable, something between your CAT5 tape cables (which I cloned
Even if it may not be any better than cat5 tape variant, at least it may look interesting, if I use something like this for the separators...
Hi,
what about ribbon cable and just use the outers.
It comes in a variety of core areas. All quite low in area, leading to significant resistance per unit length. Just to take my earlier statement forward. The wide spacing will give high inductance and low capacitance. The PVC? insulation will be the di-electric and affect DA and maybe other parameters.
Hi Planet,planet10 said:
you don't need to go as far as causing complete oscillation for the load to force the ampifier/source to change it's output and impose an un-natural signature on the signal.
Let's take a simple case of a nice wideband amplifier that reproduces a 10kHz square wave with no peaking on the output signal compared to the input, but with slight rounding of the leading edge due to the effect of the RF low pass input filter.
Add a capacitive load and the output remains exactly the same. Great this amp does not respond by changing it's output when various speakers and/or cables are hung on the end as a load.
Now take an amp that when loaded with a capacitive load shows slight peaking of the output square wave compared to the input signal. It still has some rounding due to the band limiting input filters. This amp will respond to varying reactive loads by changing it's output signal. But it is not going crazy for this effect to be audible.
So far we have considered adding capacitance to the resistive load. Let's add the other reactance, inductance and a resistive load.
The opposite effect can and will happen when the amplifier is sensitive to reactance in the load. The output square wave can be excessively rounded compared to the input signal and again this is audible. This time the inductance forces the ampllifier towards an increased phase margin and makes it more stable. There is no chance of it going crazy with the reactive load and yet the effect of the reactive load will be audible.
An amplifier-cable-loudspeaker-room-ear-brains system is a complex linear plus non-linear network of L, C, and Rs, plus some active elements too...
As thus, it has multiple resonant frequencies and dampings.
All cables will affect this. As all amplifiers will. As all speakers will, as any furniture in the room, as also the last time we were in a shooting range, a noisy street or a steel factory will.
Now... will we be able to hear that ?... ones says yes, others says no, by different reasons, that can be valid at the same time.
The questions that I think are underlying (and unspoken) in this thread are...
is it worth the kilobucks some illuminati try to exert from golden eared beings ?
How much will we pay to get this effect ?
Also, while many people talks horrors about crossovers... why do they pay so much for disguised inductors, resistors and capacitors ?
We also have to be aware that pleasure comes of very different compositions, and as there are people that get pleasure by making things themselves ( ) there are others that delight in telling others how much did they pay to get that system that was sooo well praised in this or that magazine.
Gastón
As thus, it has multiple resonant frequencies and dampings.
All cables will affect this. As all amplifiers will. As all speakers will, as any furniture in the room, as also the last time we were in a shooting range, a noisy street or a steel factory will.
Now... will we be able to hear that ?... ones says yes, others says no, by different reasons, that can be valid at the same time.
The questions that I think are underlying (and unspoken) in this thread are...
is it worth the kilobucks some illuminati try to exert from golden eared beings ?
How much will we pay to get this effect ?
Also, while many people talks horrors about crossovers... why do they pay so much for disguised inductors, resistors and capacitors ?
We also have to be aware that pleasure comes of very different compositions, and as there are people that get pleasure by making things themselves (
) there are others that delight in telling others how much did they pay to get that system that was sooo well praised in this or that magazine.Gastón
While waiting for my 6L6 tubes to arrive I changed the cables out to 10FT of 28awg and again more bass and the clarity improved some more as well. I used SCSI cable and picked two colors that were on the opposite sides of the bundle from each other.
I did read the article Dave but even they didn't seem entirely sure of what was causing the effect. That said it clearly illustrates that changes are happening and the placebo effect is not to blame. I tried to reread it just now but it is not available(I get a 404 error). Maybe we generated too many hits
I did read the article Dave but even they didn't seem entirely sure of what was causing the effect. That said it clearly illustrates that changes are happening and the placebo effect is not to blame. I tried to reread it just now but it is not available(I get a 404 error). Maybe we generated too many hits
I agree with many of the opinions in this thread concerning speaker cables, and especially that the cable itself can make a difference in the sound.
I also agree that in theory, and according to direct measurement of only the electromagnetics, a skin effect *should* make no difference in audio. However, my experience tells me that a skin effect (or at least a presumed skin effect) can be beneficially audible with a silver-over-copper surface in a stranded speaker wire.
In my comparisons, a silver surface on copper wire strands (in a speaker cable) is associated with a subtle brightening of the sound - with other factors being held as equal as possible, like length, stranding and cable design, driver sensitivity, crossover design. The difference can be discerned by anyone with good hearing, and in my experience, most listeners consider the brightening an improvement in sound quality - those who value music definition. The brightening effect becomes more pronounced compared against similar all-copper wire as the cable is lengthened.
It is possible that a silver effect does not pertain to a skin effect, that it is due only to the slightly lower resistance , maybe the adhesion of silver-on-silver that might impact capacitance, or somehow inductance...?
On the other hand, one bit of evidence for a skin effect is my observation that few individuals with high quality full-range loudspeakers use tin-plated wire.
Any other views on silver or tin surfaces and skin effect?
patch
I also agree that in theory, and according to direct measurement of only the electromagnetics, a skin effect *should* make no difference in audio. However, my experience tells me that a skin effect (or at least a presumed skin effect) can be beneficially audible with a silver-over-copper surface in a stranded speaker wire.
In my comparisons, a silver surface on copper wire strands (in a speaker cable) is associated with a subtle brightening of the sound - with other factors being held as equal as possible, like length, stranding and cable design, driver sensitivity, crossover design. The difference can be discerned by anyone with good hearing, and in my experience, most listeners consider the brightening an improvement in sound quality - those who value music definition. The brightening effect becomes more pronounced compared against similar all-copper wire as the cable is lengthened.
It is possible that a silver effect does not pertain to a skin effect, that it is due only to the slightly lower resistance , maybe the adhesion of silver-on-silver that might impact capacitance, or somehow inductance...?
On the other hand, one bit of evidence for a skin effect is my observation that few individuals with high quality full-range loudspeakers use tin-plated wire.
Any other views on silver or tin surfaces and skin effect?
patch
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