In ship design vibrations of steel constructions is a very important issue.
Dampening excitations is vital for ship performance, steel is highly pround to higher order excitation.
Naturel dampening of alloy, and even more wood, is significantly higher.
I have yet to see a loudspeaker unit enclosure made of steel.
Good that an audio authority as Mr Hansen is willing to make a statement on such a topic.
Dampening excitations is vital for ship performance, steel is highly pround to higher order excitation.
Naturel dampening of alloy, and even more wood, is significantly higher.
I have yet to see a loudspeaker unit enclosure made of steel.
Good that an audio authority as Mr Hansen is willing to make a statement on such a topic.
Hi again-
So, where to start...
Mr Hansen: Sorry for expressing my opinion. I believe I have some experience with hifi equiptment, and with wood and woodworking. I also suggested a test that could be done to find a little emperical evidence the pjpoes could use to make a better educateed decision. While I have an opion of what the result may be, I also said "Let us know what you find." because I am interested, and could be convinced, but will need more to go on than what I have heard to date. I think calling me names is pretty foolish. While I love the look of wood, and I agree that it has an effect on the sound of many things, I just don;t think it influences the flow of electrons through a transistor (read: my opinion).
sam9: Interesting about the brine-wood. I will need to read about that. I wonder how easy/difficult it is to work with it after the brining.
jacco: I htink the effect of the markers to due to the change in reflectivity of the CD's surface, because most cd's are not quite opaque, and ofter have pin holes in the reflective coating. Again my opinion.
Though I was being perhaps a little too sarcastic in my comment, I have seen steel speakers - I think you have too. Usually small steel enclosures are used to save space in outdoor speakers. These can also be of aluminum.
On a side note, I used to work for Fishman Transducers, making piezo pickups for acoustic guitars (supplier to Martin for the Thinline332, etc). Larry Fishman used to do a lot of work with Jeff Tripp. They made a guitar out of concrete one day. Sounded very flat because of no resonance, but it has sustain that would last and last and last. Totally unplayable.
Seek your bliss-
Brian
So, where to start...
Mr Hansen: Sorry for expressing my opinion. I believe I have some experience with hifi equiptment, and with wood and woodworking. I also suggested a test that could be done to find a little emperical evidence the pjpoes could use to make a better educateed decision. While I have an opion of what the result may be, I also said "Let us know what you find." because I am interested, and could be convinced, but will need more to go on than what I have heard to date. I think calling me names is pretty foolish. While I love the look of wood, and I agree that it has an effect on the sound of many things, I just don;t think it influences the flow of electrons through a transistor (read: my opinion).
sam9: Interesting about the brine-wood. I will need to read about that. I wonder how easy/difficult it is to work with it after the brining.
jacco: I htink the effect of the markers to due to the change in reflectivity of the CD's surface, because most cd's are not quite opaque, and ofter have pin holes in the reflective coating. Again my opinion.
Though I was being perhaps a little too sarcastic in my comment, I have seen steel speakers - I think you have too. Usually small steel enclosures are used to save space in outdoor speakers. These can also be of aluminum.
On a side note, I used to work for Fishman Transducers, making piezo pickups for acoustic guitars (supplier to Martin for the Thinline332, etc). Larry Fishman used to do a lot of work with Jeff Tripp. They made a guitar out of concrete one day. Sounded very flat because of no resonance, but it has sustain that would last and last and last. Totally unplayable.
Seek your bliss-
Brian
I don't doubt that a wood chassis can potentially make a component sound different. Whether it's an improvement is up to the listener, and sadly, I think a lot of people get carried away in the hype of a particular product or tweak and interpret "different" as "better." It's not such a big deal--do what makes you happy, after all--but it does get a bit annoying when people start acting like it's been divinely-certified to improve sound, or invent some absurd psuedo-scientific rationale for why it improves sound, which lodges itself into our collective awareness and becomes the basis of or marketting hype for some other questionable product (the $500 wonder-knob, for instance).
Here's the thing--wood isn't magic. It has some qualities that set it apart from the metals traditionally used in chassis construction, but there's nothing that makes it inherently better. It doesn't provide shielding, may offer some improvement in damping, has a different resonant frequency, and doesn't make a very good thermal conductor. Maybe these are qualities you need, maybe not. I think in most cases where one of them provides a marked improvement, it's because something else in the component wasn't designed properly to begin with, not because wood is actually "better" (losing shielding may make for an improvement in sound if the grounding layout on your component is so poorly designed that the chassis-shield actually injects more noise into the signal than would otherwise be there; components that are extremely susceptible to vibration and haven't been sufficiently isolated against it might sound a little better in a wooden chassis where they'd vibrate maybe a little less, or at least most often at a different frequency; etc).
Here's the thing--wood isn't magic. It has some qualities that set it apart from the metals traditionally used in chassis construction, but there's nothing that makes it inherently better. It doesn't provide shielding, may offer some improvement in damping, has a different resonant frequency, and doesn't make a very good thermal conductor. Maybe these are qualities you need, maybe not. I think in most cases where one of them provides a marked improvement, it's because something else in the component wasn't designed properly to begin with, not because wood is actually "better" (losing shielding may make for an improvement in sound if the grounding layout on your component is so poorly designed that the chassis-shield actually injects more noise into the signal than would otherwise be there; components that are extremely susceptible to vibration and haven't been sufficiently isolated against it might sound a little better in a wooden chassis where they'd vibrate maybe a little less, or at least most often at a different frequency; etc).
Brian,
Thank you very much for the civilized response to what was a somewhat provocative posting.
There is no need to apologize for expressing your opinion. In the context of this forum and this thread in particular, I think a useful opinion might be "I tried mounting the same PCB in both a wooden chassis and an aluminum chassis, and could hear no difference", or whatever your personal experience was.
On the other hand, if someone is interested in (say) the sound of copper conductors versus silver conductors, I don't think it is particularly helpful for people to post "there couldn't possibly be any difference, and anyone who thinks there is a difference is deluded", even if that is your genuine opinion.
And as to whether a wooden enclosure affects the "flow of electrons through a transistor", I couldn't say. In my experience, putting a circuit board in a wooden enclosure does make a quite noticeable difference in the sound of the component. I really don't know what the mechanism is.
I would suggest that you try it sometime (or any similar type of experiment) and then report your findings. I used to be extremely skeptical of these types of effects, but that was only until I put away my skepticism and took the time to try them for myself.
I have never tried a tweak that was recommended by someone else without hearing a difference. I didn't always think it was an improvement, but that is a different story.
Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Thank you very much for the civilized response to what was a somewhat provocative posting.
There is no need to apologize for expressing your opinion. In the context of this forum and this thread in particular, I think a useful opinion might be "I tried mounting the same PCB in both a wooden chassis and an aluminum chassis, and could hear no difference", or whatever your personal experience was.
On the other hand, if someone is interested in (say) the sound of copper conductors versus silver conductors, I don't think it is particularly helpful for people to post "there couldn't possibly be any difference, and anyone who thinks there is a difference is deluded", even if that is your genuine opinion.
And as to whether a wooden enclosure affects the "flow of electrons through a transistor", I couldn't say. In my experience, putting a circuit board in a wooden enclosure does make a quite noticeable difference in the sound of the component. I really don't know what the mechanism is.
I would suggest that you try it sometime (or any similar type of experiment) and then report your findings. I used to be extremely skeptical of these types of effects, but that was only until I put away my skepticism and took the time to try them for myself.
I have never tried a tweak that was recommended by someone else without hearing a difference. I didn't always think it was an improvement, but that is a different story.
Best regards,
Charles Hansen
To Jacco Vermeulen
Krell loudspeakers have aluminum enclosures:
http://www.krellonline.com/html/m_LAT_p_LATC_news.html
All-Aluminum Cabinet Design
The Krell LAT Series features massive aluminum construction. The LAT-1 weighs approximately 250 pounds. Its external enclosures range from 0.75 to 1.5 inches in wall thickness. Internal midrange/tweeter sub-enclosures, where present, are constructed of 1/4-inch aluminum. The curvature of the cabinets is designed to absolutely minimize the effects of internal standing waves and external high-frequency diffraction.
Krell loudspeakers have aluminum enclosures:
http://www.krellonline.com/html/m_LAT_p_LATC_news.html
All-Aluminum Cabinet Design
The Krell LAT Series features massive aluminum construction. The LAT-1 weighs approximately 250 pounds. Its external enclosures range from 0.75 to 1.5 inches in wall thickness. Internal midrange/tweeter sub-enclosures, where present, are constructed of 1/4-inch aluminum. The curvature of the cabinets is designed to absolutely minimize the effects of internal standing waves and external high-frequency diffraction.
On the topic of how to shield a wooden enclosure against EMF: Ordinary aluminum spray paint. Run a screw into the wood with a wire to a ground point and you're done. Cheap, effective, and some people even like the way it looks. I don't personally care for the looks, but since you only need to do it on the inside, it's not really a cosmetic problem. It's a whole lot easier than trying to fit copper/aluminum foil to the inside countours of a piece of wood.
On how wood could possibly make a difference: The power transformer emits EMF. Even toroids. Agreed? Next step--what happens when an EM field encounters metal? Eddy currents. What do those eddy currents do? They, in turn, create more magnetic fields throughout the chassis which, in turn, lash back and forth across the circuit, creating uncontrolled currents which have nothing whatsoever to do with the music and can be counted as either noise or distortion according to your personal views. And don't forget that most audio circuits are grounded to the chassis, that means that those same eddy currents are in your grounding system. That isn't going to help.
There may be other mechanisms, but that model is easily understandable.
On tone woods: I not only have a full woodworking shop, I build basses. Tone woods are good things. I am not, however, persuaded that it is worth the expense and destruction of rain forests to use rare woods for a stereo chassis in the hope that purpleheart, for instance, would sound better than hard maple or black walnut (of which we still have plenty here in the US). I am open to persuasion, but dearly hope that the winner of any contest isn't anything that's already on the ropes, environmentally speaking. It's been years since I've seen a good piece of koa; the stuff I see these days is all so flat and bland compared to the boards I used to get.
On finishes: At least on the surface of it (ahem), I can't see any way it would make a difference, but am open to persuasion. For the time being, I am content to use oil, lacquer, or whatever else strikes me at the time.
On pricing: I think most people would agree that four hundred-some-odd dollars for a turned piece of beech is a wee bit excessive, even if it does sound better. But as with so many other things, approach the price as a separate issue from the does-it-actually-sound-better question. I'm not sure that having a wooden knob is, in fact, going to improve the sound, but that should not be confused with the price issue. If it turns out that beech knobs actually do make a difference, I'll be happy to go into production at something more reasonable, like $25. I imagine that I'd still turn (ahem) a profit.
Grey
P.S.: Sorry about the puns...oh, who am I kidding...no, I'm not!
On how wood could possibly make a difference: The power transformer emits EMF. Even toroids. Agreed? Next step--what happens when an EM field encounters metal? Eddy currents. What do those eddy currents do? They, in turn, create more magnetic fields throughout the chassis which, in turn, lash back and forth across the circuit, creating uncontrolled currents which have nothing whatsoever to do with the music and can be counted as either noise or distortion according to your personal views. And don't forget that most audio circuits are grounded to the chassis, that means that those same eddy currents are in your grounding system. That isn't going to help.
There may be other mechanisms, but that model is easily understandable.
On tone woods: I not only have a full woodworking shop, I build basses. Tone woods are good things. I am not, however, persuaded that it is worth the expense and destruction of rain forests to use rare woods for a stereo chassis in the hope that purpleheart, for instance, would sound better than hard maple or black walnut (of which we still have plenty here in the US). I am open to persuasion, but dearly hope that the winner of any contest isn't anything that's already on the ropes, environmentally speaking. It's been years since I've seen a good piece of koa; the stuff I see these days is all so flat and bland compared to the boards I used to get.
On finishes: At least on the surface of it (ahem), I can't see any way it would make a difference, but am open to persuasion. For the time being, I am content to use oil, lacquer, or whatever else strikes me at the time.
On pricing: I think most people would agree that four hundred-some-odd dollars for a turned piece of beech is a wee bit excessive, even if it does sound better. But as with so many other things, approach the price as a separate issue from the does-it-actually-sound-better question. I'm not sure that having a wooden knob is, in fact, going to improve the sound, but that should not be confused with the price issue. If it turns out that beech knobs actually do make a difference, I'll be happy to go into production at something more reasonable, like $25. I imagine that I'd still turn (ahem) a profit.
Grey
P.S.: Sorry about the puns...oh, who am I kidding...no, I'm not!
Incidentally, about every ten years or so, someone does a study on why Stradivari sound the way they do. Every one of them comes up with a different answer, and for some reason the sound of modern instruments never seem to catch up with the real thing.
My personal favorite of the theories is the one where the raw logs sat immersed in water in a holding pen not far from where raw sewage dumped into the sea. This led to various substances penetrating the wood fibers and becoming part of the dried wood later. Over time, people quit being quite so free with their wastes and the sound quality deteriorated in inverse proportion to the increased water quality.
Comments that Stadivari sound like (mumble) will not be looked upon kindly.
Grey
My personal favorite of the theories is the one where the raw logs sat immersed in water in a holding pen not far from where raw sewage dumped into the sea. This led to various substances penetrating the wood fibers and becoming part of the dried wood later. Over time, people quit being quite so free with their wastes and the sound quality deteriorated in inverse proportion to the increased water quality.
Comments that Stadivari sound like (mumble) will not be looked upon kindly.
Grey
Scientific thinking is not rejecting one idea because it doesn't fit one's (limited) model or theory. If such an hypothesis disturbs me I go and experiment. Maybe it's time to review the model (continuously).
As a begginer, I put a 2'' thick wood base on a cheap DVD-P and I liked the effect. Maybe 1'' base wood have made different effect.
Now I make thick wood bases (sorry I don't know their english names) for my equipment and they sound just good. I don't found them noisier than heavy aluminium based ones on A/B comparisons.
After all everything can resonate with our beloved waves. Maybe our brain is used to "organic" resonance. You don't need to hear a "thump" to know that something is happening.
About magic laquers: I read somewhere that one can imitate C37 by applying graphite powder to black nail varnish
I never had the time to test this cheap (and probably detrimental) tweak in my brother's CD-P
Regards
As a begginer, I put a 2'' thick wood base on a cheap DVD-P and I liked the effect. Maybe 1'' base wood have made different effect.
Now I make thick wood bases (sorry I don't know their english names) for my equipment and they sound just good. I don't found them noisier than heavy aluminium based ones on A/B comparisons.
After all everything can resonate with our beloved waves. Maybe our brain is used to "organic" resonance. You don't need to hear a "thump" to know that something is happening.
About magic laquers: I read somewhere that one can imitate C37 by applying graphite powder to black nail varnish
I never had the time to test this cheap (and probably detrimental) tweak in my brother's CD-P
Regards
Bill,
Yeah, I know. It's how I first realized there was a problem with the world's wood supply. When good koa got hard to find I sat back, thought about it, and came to exactly the same conclusion. I tend to use more oak, cherry, walnut, maple, and the like these days as a result. Cedar is an oft-overlooked wood that is fine grained, frequently has nifty patterns, and smells good in the bargain.
(For those overseas, our "cedar" isn't a true cedar, it's a member of the junipers.)
Grey
Yeah, I know. It's how I first realized there was a problem with the world's wood supply. When good koa got hard to find I sat back, thought about it, and came to exactly the same conclusion. I tend to use more oak, cherry, walnut, maple, and the like these days as a result. Cedar is an oft-overlooked wood that is fine grained, frequently has nifty patterns, and smells good in the bargain.
(For those overseas, our "cedar" isn't a true cedar, it's a member of the junipers.)
Grey
He Kees,
thanks for the link. I am not that keen on Krell, a reason for never visiting their stuff.
Krell is not the first to use alloy, maybe the first to make a complete alloy enclosure.
I did not get the impression from the article that simple alloy plating is used for the system.
With molded alloy extrusions i am sure an extremely well dampened enclosure can be made.
Finite element computer programs do vibration calculations, and predict excitation response quite well.
It is certainly the way of the future, still the material of the future,
the earth has huge amounts of Bauxite.
Actually, i love alloy. Aluminium is the best material for boat building ( ok, this is an audio forum, nag nag !)
One of the best Dutch ship designers does design work for a major American luxury alloy boat builder.
He has an article on the web about all the merits of alloy.
On another thread i mentioned i worked a short period at a plant that makes alloy products, and learned how to weld aluminum and handle liquid aluminum. Great stuff.
Unless i am mistaken a fellow countryman of you built the Zarathustra turntable with aluminum as a main material, and audio stands have been constructed with sandwich panels containing alloy to obtain high dampening.
In the car industry alloy is increasingly stepping up, rigidity and vibration dampening is a primal issue in automobile technology too. Not just Audi A8, but jaguar XJ, and others will certainly follow. Maybe some day AlCoa will make a deal with Corvette
Concrete has not been used for loudspeaker enclosures solely.
Many will know Thorens built a record turntable out of concrete.
At one time concrete was a popular material for building sailing boats, people crossed the ocean with them.
I am sure someone in Germany a long time ago would have to loved to have owned a concrete guitar, maybe even a shell proof Steinway.
Its nice to have Mr Rollins here with his talent for expressing things, though he makes me feel like a hick !
A big reason for lacking knowledge on enclosure material influence is the lack of glory to be gained with it, i think.
In an industry where half of the competitors resemble Dr Lector who in his right mind would spend 10 years examining wooden enclosures and effects of lacquer ?
Instead, checking chopped liver prices at the butchers may be more vital.
thanks for the link. I am not that keen on Krell, a reason for never visiting their stuff.
Krell is not the first to use alloy, maybe the first to make a complete alloy enclosure.
I did not get the impression from the article that simple alloy plating is used for the system.
With molded alloy extrusions i am sure an extremely well dampened enclosure can be made.
Finite element computer programs do vibration calculations, and predict excitation response quite well.
It is certainly the way of the future, still the material of the future,
the earth has huge amounts of Bauxite.
Actually, i love alloy. Aluminium is the best material for boat building ( ok, this is an audio forum, nag nag !)
One of the best Dutch ship designers does design work for a major American luxury alloy boat builder.
He has an article on the web about all the merits of alloy.
On another thread i mentioned i worked a short period at a plant that makes alloy products, and learned how to weld aluminum and handle liquid aluminum. Great stuff.
Unless i am mistaken a fellow countryman of you built the Zarathustra turntable with aluminum as a main material, and audio stands have been constructed with sandwich panels containing alloy to obtain high dampening.
In the car industry alloy is increasingly stepping up, rigidity and vibration dampening is a primal issue in automobile technology too. Not just Audi A8, but jaguar XJ, and others will certainly follow. Maybe some day AlCoa will make a deal with Corvette
Concrete has not been used for loudspeaker enclosures solely.
Many will know Thorens built a record turntable out of concrete.
At one time concrete was a popular material for building sailing boats, people crossed the ocean with them.
I am sure someone in Germany a long time ago would have to loved to have owned a concrete guitar, maybe even a shell proof Steinway.
Its nice to have Mr Rollins here with his talent for expressing things, though he makes me feel like a hick !
A big reason for lacking knowledge on enclosure material influence is the lack of glory to be gained with it, i think.
In an industry where half of the competitors resemble Dr Lector who in his right mind would spend 10 years examining wooden enclosures and effects of lacquer ?
Instead, checking chopped liver prices at the butchers may be more vital.
Hi Charles:
No need to appologize for your equally blanket statement:
On Shielding:
I build enclosures from wood (PC, amp etc), but I also shield my power supplies to keep them from emitting (as much) EMI/RF, and I shield my driver and power sections from outside EMI/RF with metal. These are things that can be easily measured and percieved.
These environmental factors should not be neglected. Moving a piece of equiptment slightly can vastly alter how it is affected by internal and external EMI/RF. This lack of predictability requires (in my mind) that I take precautions to prevent them, even if I don't see them in my workshop.
Seek Your Bliss
-b
No need to appologize for your equally blanket statement:
I think we can all agree that any differences based on perception and not measurement are not scientific. I realize all things are not measurable, but not all things are provable either.
On Shielding:
I build enclosures from wood (PC, amp etc), but I also shield my power supplies to keep them from emitting (as much) EMI/RF, and I shield my driver and power sections from outside EMI/RF with metal. These are things that can be easily measured and percieved.
These environmental factors should not be neglected. Moving a piece of equiptment slightly can vastly alter how it is affected by internal and external EMI/RF. This lack of predictability requires (in my mind) that I take precautions to prevent them, even if I don't see them in my workshop.
Seek Your Bliss
-b
I'm always amused by comments like the following:
'I think we can all agree that any differences based on perception and not measurement are not scientific.'
I suppose this means that if I look up and observe that the sky is blue that it is not deemed a scientific fact until someone measures the color temperature and finds it to be 11000 degrees Kelvin. One wonders how they managed back two, three, even four hundred years ago, prior to the invention of modern instruments. Just about all they had were their senses; very few instruments at all. Golly, pretty much the entire science of astronomy was sensory until about a hundred years ago. Guess we'll have to delete those chapters in the text books, as they aren't "science." Botany, until very recently a purely descriptive science, also goes on the scrap heap. Likewise geology, biology, all of the soft sciences...
Oh, puh-leeeze!
Grey
'I think we can all agree that any differences based on perception and not measurement are not scientific.'
I suppose this means that if I look up and observe that the sky is blue that it is not deemed a scientific fact until someone measures the color temperature and finds it to be 11000 degrees Kelvin. One wonders how they managed back two, three, even four hundred years ago, prior to the invention of modern instruments. Just about all they had were their senses; very few instruments at all. Golly, pretty much the entire science of astronomy was sensory until about a hundred years ago. Guess we'll have to delete those chapters in the text books, as they aren't "science." Botany, until very recently a purely descriptive science, also goes on the scrap heap. Likewise geology, biology, all of the soft sciences...
Oh, puh-leeeze!
Grey
To a certain extent, yes. Eyes are not precise measuring instruments; you cannot be sure that what you perceive is what is really there. I am reminded of Monet and his cataracts, and how the colours of his paintings changed, reflecting his changed perception of colour. Two objects may appear to have the same colour despite wildly different spectrums being radiated from them, because of lighting conditions, what you were looking at before, or cataracts.GRollins said:
In another sense no, since blue is itself defined as what we perceive as blue and thus if you see it as blue then that is what it is. This is distinct from a measurement of colour temperature, which is an objective measurement that cannot be done accurately by eye.
This sort of silly arguing is exactly why I and others participate in this forum less frequently (or not at all).
Even Monet with his cataracts could tell the blue of the sky from the blue of a robin's egg from the blue of a blueberry. And anyone with a decent stereo (and a decent attitude) can tell the difference in sound caused by a metal chassis versus a wooden one versus a ceramic one.
And by the way, that is what the original poster was asking. I repeat myself by stating that it is not particularly helpful to the original poster when people (nearly all of whom have no direct experience with this topic) declare or imply that they don't believe it would make any difference to use a wooden chassis.
Even Monet with his cataracts could tell the blue of the sky from the blue of a robin's egg from the blue of a blueberry. And anyone with a decent stereo (and a decent attitude) can tell the difference in sound caused by a metal chassis versus a wooden one versus a ceramic one.
And by the way, that is what the original poster was asking. I repeat myself by stating that it is not particularly helpful to the original poster when people (nearly all of whom have no direct experience with this topic) declare or imply that they don't believe it would make any difference to use a wooden chassis.
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