I think I'm ready to throw the towel in on this one, 5th element. But I appreciate your thought that less wadding might be doable with the right crossover and drive units. 
Thing is, if I filter it lower on a second order to get rid of cone-breakup, I need a bigger bass coil which kills the bookshelf bass balance. That and not many improved tweeter options in the small space available make this all rather difficult, or at least, hardly worth the effort.
Plus the fact this is all guesswork on the driver. I could do a much better job with some notches around 5kHz thrown in, but they need accurate simulation.
My original sim seems to reveal the problem with the Mordaunt Short MS 15 here. It's harshness around 5-7 kHz. That's what I'm hearing.
Thing is, if I filter it lower on a second order to get rid of cone-breakup, I need a bigger bass coil which kills the bookshelf bass balance. That and not many improved tweeter options in the small space available make this all rather difficult, or at least, hardly worth the effort.
Plus the fact this is all guesswork on the driver. I could do a much better job with some notches around 5kHz thrown in, but they need accurate simulation.
My original sim seems to reveal the problem with the Mordaunt Short MS 15 here. It's harshness around 5-7 kHz. That's what I'm hearing.
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AW! Dont give up, 5th has a point (which has been suggested to me a number of times) get a simple measurement setup and make your own .zma and .frd files for Boxsim. Granted it may be worth putting on the backburner until summer, when you could measure outside and get a near anechoic measurement. But as you will, its your choice if you think it worthy of the effort. Tbh ive come to enjoy your revamp threads, picking up speakers i wanted as a teen, but didnt save up for (something to do with a green strat i wanted more).
I was the lucky guy who had 70s 8inch Goodmans donated to me, along with some cool 3 inch cone tweeters. I, like many teens, didnt really take care of them though.
I think, for what my opinion is worth (lol), that you should build the W130S8 and TW70 design. I think its likely the best 2 way for a budget using Boxsim and Visaton drivers. If you can make your own frd and zma (as ive laboured before) then it opens up more possibilities.
I have some data for Audax drivers ive had for ages. The only real database i found was RJBaudio (i think thats correct) who is a member here if im not mistaken
Off topic, apologies. But...
How large is the panel cutout? Have you considered experimenting with FRS5X as the tweeter? If the SPLs match well enough, you could cross the woofer lower and retain the odd order cropover. Just a suggestion, assuming it will fit.
The cutout for the FRS5X is ~45mm. It looks ugly though, rear mountable, if so inclined.
You could maybe even mod the Audax faceplate...
Just my take.
I was the lucky guy who had 70s 8inch Goodmans donated to me, along with some cool 3 inch cone tweeters. I, like many teens, didnt really take care of them though.
I think, for what my opinion is worth (lol), that you should build the W130S8 and TW70 design. I think its likely the best 2 way for a budget using Boxsim and Visaton drivers. If you can make your own frd and zma (as ive laboured before) then it opens up more possibilities.
I have some data for Audax drivers ive had for ages. The only real database i found was RJBaudio (i think thats correct) who is a member here if im not mistaken
Off topic, apologies. But...
How large is the panel cutout? Have you considered experimenting with FRS5X as the tweeter? If the SPLs match well enough, you could cross the woofer lower and retain the odd order cropover. Just a suggestion, assuming it will fit.
The cutout for the FRS5X is ~45mm. It looks ugly though, rear mountable, if so inclined.
You could maybe even mod the Audax faceplate...
Just my take.
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Finally got round to doing these speakers!
I was inspired by Samadhi's lovely Stellan speaker, which borrows not a little from the WLM Stella, Visaton TW70 cone tweeter an' all.
I've just got to bolt down the crossover and put the stuffing back. But VERY nice, VERY musical and unfatiguing. Usual bass notches to align phase for a 6" driver, and third order tweeter.
I originally fitted a KEF-type acoustic butterworth (0.68uF and 0.68R) on the treble filter, but it sounded harsh, even if it graphed beautifully.
I've now used both, and the Visaton TW70 Cone tweeter is better than the Monacor HT22-8 IMO. Brighter top end.
I was inspired by Samadhi's lovely Stellan speaker, which borrows not a little from the WLM Stella, Visaton TW70 cone tweeter an' all.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I've just got to bolt down the crossover and put the stuffing back. But VERY nice, VERY musical and unfatiguing. Usual bass notches to align phase for a 6" driver, and third order tweeter.
I originally fitted a KEF-type acoustic butterworth (0.68uF and 0.68R) on the treble filter, but it sounded harsh, even if it graphed beautifully.
I've now used both, and the Visaton TW70 Cone tweeter is better than the Monacor HT22-8 IMO. Brighter top end.
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Great thread! I love seeing people modifying old speakers
I used to own Mourdount Short's MS10i I think they were called. Great sound quality, lacked deep bass which is understandable in tiny cabinets. Had them running through a Pioneer A-400 amp and Pioneer CD Player. They had hard dome gold tweeters and 4" or 5" woofers.
Why don't you try gluing some wooden dowels from baffle to back panel? That should improve bass.
Not sure if chamfering the woofer hole on the inside will work as good on a sealed like it does on a bass reflex but should be worth a go.
Try some bitumen on woofer chassis too.
I used to own Mourdount Short's MS10i I think they were called. Great sound quality, lacked deep bass which is understandable in tiny cabinets. Had them running through a Pioneer A-400 amp and Pioneer CD Player. They had hard dome gold tweeters and 4" or 5" woofers.
Why don't you try gluing some wooden dowels from baffle to back panel? That should improve bass.
Not sure if chamfering the woofer hole on the inside will work as good on a sealed like it does on a bass reflex but should be worth a go.
Try some bitumen on woofer chassis too.
TBH, Stewart, a 7 litre closed box speaker is always going to lack something in the bass department. But it was interesting to try and improve them. Something like a bigger 15 litres reflex on similar drivers would probably be much more like it. I'd probably try something like a SEAS polycone too: H1571-08 U18RNX/P
I'm more interested in 25 litre 8" bass reflex plus cone tweeter these days. You wire the tweeter out of phase on a third order treble crossover because time alignment sucks, and you can then get some decent phase alignment around crossover. And they have real bass welly!
I used to have the MS10i, as it goes. Great little reflex speaker. First order crossover of coil and capacitor that actually worked quite well. Polycone bass and metal dome tweeter.
I'm more interested in 25 litre 8" bass reflex plus cone tweeter these days. You wire the tweeter out of phase on a third order treble crossover because time alignment sucks, and you can then get some decent phase alignment around crossover. And they have real bass welly!
I used to have the MS10i, as it goes. Great little reflex speaker. First order crossover of coil and capacitor that actually worked quite well. Polycone bass and metal dome tweeter.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I'm pleased you did improve them I was only around 15 when I has the MS10i's so was unsure of crossovers completely back then, would of loved to improve them now, do you any links with pics of MS10i's modified? Would be great to have a look
I also used to own 8" 2-ways when I owned the MS10i's, the sound quality didn't match the MS10's the bass was well better though only around 16 litre cabs.
I have the Seas PP 6.5" in 20 litre cabs and well happy with the bass.
I also used to own 8" 2-ways when I owned the MS10i's, the sound quality didn't match the MS10's the bass was well better though only around 16 litre cabs.
I have the Seas PP 6.5" in 20 litre cabs and well happy with the bass.
I never did much to the MS10i's beyond upgrading the 2.2uF electrolytic capacitor to a polypropylene, which reduced sibilance and improved detail a tidge.
Every speaker presents different challenges. As I said, 8" has huge phase and time alignment problems on simple crossover, which I only solved by looking at some more complex KEF designs.
6" bass is about the easiest to get right because you can get superb phase alignment without trying too hard. 5" bass has some bumps in frequency response which needs some notching in my experience.
But if you have the 6" SEAS polycone, I think you could try the 92mm Monacor HT22/8 cone tweeter. It's certainly an upgrade from soft domes. Well, I think so. Forum genius Joachim Gerhard is unconvinced however...
Every speaker presents different challenges. As I said, 8" has huge phase and time alignment problems on simple crossover, which I only solved by looking at some more complex KEF designs.
6" bass is about the easiest to get right because you can get superb phase alignment without trying too hard. 5" bass has some bumps in frequency response which needs some notching in my experience.
But if you have the 6" SEAS polycone, I think you could try the 92mm Monacor HT22/8 cone tweeter. It's certainly an upgrade from soft domes. Well, I think so. Forum genius Joachim Gerhard is unconvinced however...
Good to see you tinkered with the caps on the MS10's and got good results. I may invest in a pair again one day. Just upgrading the 2.2uF tweeter cap on my old Wharfedales Valdus' just to learn any differences.You have some interesting advice on the phase alignment of different sized woofers, makes sense why my friend had struggled with phase issues in his 5" 2 ways.
Thanks for the advice on the tweeter I have the Seas 27TBFC/G Metal cones, really happy with them, just need to redesign the external x-overs for them.
Iv'e read about certain KEF's x-over design being good, is it a certain notch filter?
Am leaning a lot on crossovers atm and really interested in them.
I use Visaton Boxsim to tinker with crossovers. Visaton only make paper drivers for the most part, so I'm limited on polycone simulations, but highly recommended, especially the OPTIMISE button: Downloads
You'll probably be hard pressed to improve on the resolution of a good SEAS metal tweeter. But they do irritate me with their metallic tone, which never does classical piano right, IMO.
I know my way round Visaton's range of woofers and tweeters. The 6.5" W170S is a nice one. The W200S is pending on my shelf too. But it's a huge subject. I often run a classic crossover and similar drivers past Boxsim to learn how it works.
You'll probably be hard pressed to improve on the resolution of a good SEAS metal tweeter. But they do irritate me with their metallic tone, which never does classical piano right, IMO.
I know my way round Visaton's range of woofers and tweeters. The 6.5" W170S is a nice one. The W200S is pending on my shelf too. But it's a huge subject. I often run a classic crossover and similar drivers past Boxsim to learn how it works.
Thanks for the advice on the tweeter I have the Seas 27TBFC/G Metal cones, really happy with them, just need to redesign the external x-overs for them.
Iv'e read about certain KEF's x-over design being good, is it a certain notch filter?
Am leaning a lot on crossovers atm and really interested in them.
5" bass is usually dead easy on phase, because it's naturally close to time aligned with the tweeter. The classic design is the polycone BBC LS3/5A, 2nd order bass plus notch around 1.5kHz, third order tweeter. The BBC had a trick up their sleeve on most builds by recessing the bass and flipping the phase on the tweeter too. Harbeth still do it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
KEF, along with a lot of respected designers like Troels Gravesen still employ the "BBC Dip". This is a 3db rolloff slope on the treble, which makes for a smoother, less fatiguing sound and lets you hear what's going on at low frequencies.
I decided to fiddle with my new toys to do the same. I have now changed the 15R tweeter shunt to 5.6R. This is definitely nicer and smoother. I'd even say these speakers win a cigar now. It may be a lot of the nice effect is the tweeter is now seeing a smaller source impedance (< 5.6R) at all frequencies, but they have that lovely "quietness" between notes which IMO makes a good speaker.
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Hi,
Phase alignment can be done with tinkering
with the assymetry of the target acoustic slope,
or using assymetric acoustic targets if you wish.
If you sim and get a good reverse null, you have
good phase matching an good vertical lobing.
It is one if the most difficult things to get right,
simming, all your files have to be accurate.
FWIW notches are not usually just employed
to manipulate phase, x/o possibilities is a huge
subject, particularly stuck with two given drivers.
Some sim and use that to choose the drivers to a degree.
Boxsim is nice, but hard to import non-Visaton driver data,
AFAIK. Hence its hard to be very accurate analysing x/o's.
rgds, sreten.
Phase alignment can be done with tinkering
with the assymetry of the target acoustic slope,
or using assymetric acoustic targets if you wish.
If you sim and get a good reverse null, you have
good phase matching an good vertical lobing.
It is one if the most difficult things to get right,
simming, all your files have to be accurate.
FWIW notches are not usually just employed
to manipulate phase, x/o possibilities is a huge
subject, particularly stuck with two given drivers.
Some sim and use that to choose the drivers to a degree.
Boxsim is nice, but hard to import non-Visaton driver data,
AFAIK. Hence its hard to be very accurate analysing x/o's.
rgds, sreten.
I use Visaton Boxsim to tinker with crossovers. Visaton only make paper drivers for the most part, so I'm limited on polycone simulations, but highly recommended, especially the OPTIMISE button: Downloads
You'll probably be hard pressed to improve on the resolution of a good SEAS metal tweeter. But they do irritate me with their metallic tone, which never does classical piano right, IMO.
I know my way round Visaton's range of woofers and tweeters. The 6.5" W170S is a nice one. The W200S is pending on my shelf too. But it's a huge subject. I often run a classic crossover and similar drivers past Boxsim to learn how it works.
I can see why you use Visaton Boxsim program
it looks so easy to use. Thanks for sharing the link. I used to think Visaton was a step up to the old Skytec gear, looks like they have some good higher end drivers now though and can totally understand why you use them. I still prefer the Seas, Scanspeak and SB Acoustics atm, gotta lot of designs I wanna do with them first. I can't really describe the sound of the tweeters till I sort the x-over out but they blend quite well very hard to point at them directly when you close your eyes, lots of air and sparkle. Slight sibilance which i'll sort with new x-over.I think the Seas U22REX/P-SL would produce better bass than a lot of the Visaton 8" woofers, though I'd presume they more expensive.
I actually designed my Seas 2 ways based on the MS10i's just wanted more bass, power and better quality drivers. You can see with the phase plug on woofer and hard dome tweeter the resemblance.
Cheers Steve I can understand why some midwoofers are set back into the baffle. My friend is copying the Prestigious 2 crossover by Gornir, makes sense with same drivers and almost same cabinet size and baffle. May need slight resistor changes to suit his taste/room. Am I right by thinking changing that 15R to a lower value will that make it easier for your amp to drive too, Does it sound like you have moved the tweeters forward and sounds more 'upfront'?
Hi Sreten, great advice. I can imagine phase issues can be sorted when speakers are measured acoustically.
Hi Sreten, great advice. I can imagine phase issues can be sorted when speakers are measured acoustically.
Gornir's design is an interesting "minimal" one using that odd DXT tweeter:
www.audioexcite.com Blog Archive Prestigious Two ? Monitor DXT Construction!
Troels does something a bit more complex here with the same U16RCY/P woofer and a soft dome:
SEAS CURV
The impedance is very high on the top end with the MS15, so nothing I do affects it much. The 10R resistor dominates.
I'm actually getting more confident with a lot of non-Visaton drivers, provided they have good frequency response and fairly standard voicecoil inductance.
Sreten has said often enough that what I do is awful guesswork, but what else can you do with unknown drivers? You take a close stab at it, then tweak them a bit.
You have an uncanny knack of picking out woofers I fancy, Stewart.
H1659-08 U22REX/P-SL
That 8" SEAS looks a doddle to get sounding good. I know exactly what to do with it. But I think I'll take a break from it all right now. I've finished upgrading 3 good pairs of speakers lately, sometimes slightly compromised by the parts I have lying around, but they all have a good sound. Here's the other two. I love this hobby.
www.audioexcite.com Blog Archive Prestigious Two ? Monitor DXT Construction!
Troels does something a bit more complex here with the same U16RCY/P woofer and a soft dome:
SEAS CURV
The impedance is very high on the top end with the MS15, so nothing I do affects it much. The 10R resistor dominates.
I'm actually getting more confident with a lot of non-Visaton drivers, provided they have good frequency response and fairly standard voicecoil inductance.
Sreten has said often enough that what I do is awful guesswork, but what else can you do with unknown drivers? You take a close stab at it, then tweak them a bit.
You have an uncanny knack of picking out woofers I fancy, Stewart.
H1659-08 U22REX/P-SL
That 8" SEAS looks a doddle to get sounding good. I know exactly what to do with it. But I think I'll take a break from it all right now. I've finished upgrading 3 good pairs of speakers lately, sometimes slightly compromised by the parts I have lying around, but they all have a good sound. Here's the other two. I love this hobby.
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As I said, the amp doesn't see a significantly different load, nor is phase affected one bit according to the modelling I did. It just sounds quieter and cleaner at the top end. Drivers often like a bit of resistance in parallel with them. Gives the back emf something to damp into, IMO. The same applies to woofers. A bit of resistance in the capacitor shunt arm of a bass filter makes for a quieter cleaner sound. This is why Zobel networks can be useful things to tame harshness, if you know what they are.
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Yes Gornin's x/o has few components which my friend likes, I read a lot of Troels curv.
I want Troels' curv for my rear speakers and a centre speaker using x2 Seas 5" PP Curv and either 27TBFC/G or 29TFF/W tweeter, pending which I like best off axis. Of course a nice plan for a Seas bass reflex subwoofer too.
Like your other speakers too...and surprise surprise I again had some Sony speakers a while ago (I've not owned many more hifi speakers), they were small 2 way sealed with soft dome tweeter I don't remember the model but were surprisingly good. Love the Monitor Audios. Are they MA's?
Yeah kick your feet up and enjoy them for a while must be good to have the three to choose from no doubt you will tweak them again one day.
I do hope they get some stands to sit on and try isolating your hifi stack...sorry bit of a pet hate when little things like that have good improvements.
Yes can understand about Zobel network network being useful am going to try a second order with little resistance in parallel as I can, I think I will learn more from that approach.
It seems you don't have much play with 1st orders but I could be wrong.
I want Troels' curv for my rear speakers and a centre speaker using x2 Seas 5" PP Curv and either 27TBFC/G or 29TFF/W tweeter, pending which I like best off axis. Of course a nice plan for a Seas bass reflex subwoofer too.
Like your other speakers too...and surprise surprise I again had some Sony speakers a while ago (I've not owned many more hifi speakers), they were small 2 way sealed with soft dome tweeter I don't remember the model but were surprisingly good. Love the Monitor Audios. Are they MA's?
Yeah kick your feet up and enjoy them for a while must be good to have the three to choose from
no doubt you will tweak them again one day.I do hope they get some stands to sit on and try isolating your hifi stack...sorry bit of a pet hate when little things like that have good improvements.
Yes can understand about Zobel network network being useful am going to try a second order with little resistance in parallel as I can, I think I will learn more from that approach.
It seems you don't have much play with 1st orders but I could be wrong.
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Shall I have a rant about minimal crossovers? Yeah!
The Sony E44's came with a single 2.2uF capacitor on the treble. Minimal enough for you? Well, these are what Lynn Olson calls "Little Girl with a Guitar" speakers. They sound GREAT with simple material, but throw something complex at them, and they become a distorted muddle.
The 8" Sony's have a great fast and efficient bass unit in the Eminence Alpha 8 tradition, and a nice mylar cone tweeter. Just my cup of tea. Gave it a second order bass with a 4.7R resistor in the capacitor shunt, and a third order treble wired out of phase, and they really sound breathtakingly clear. I was able to use quite a small bass coil with that one, 0.7mH IIRC.
The efficient 8" Monitor Audio R300/MD had a similarly useless crossover originally and a metal dome 19TAF/G SEAS tweeter that I grew to loathe. I could only slightly improve it, before a complete redesign. They now sound quite wonderful with that little £6 Monacor HT22/8 tweeter on a proper KEF type 2nd/3rd order crossover with a 1.5mH coil.
Below is the original MA crossover, and the limited improvement I could give it short of redesign. It really should go in the trash, IMO. You might get away with it with a polycone, but not with a paper bass.
The Sony E44's came with a single 2.2uF capacitor on the treble. Minimal enough for you? Well, these are what Lynn Olson calls "Little Girl with a Guitar" speakers. They sound GREAT with simple material, but throw something complex at them, and they become a distorted muddle.
The 8" Sony's have a great fast and efficient bass unit in the Eminence Alpha 8 tradition, and a nice mylar cone tweeter. Just my cup of tea. Gave it a second order bass with a 4.7R resistor in the capacitor shunt, and a third order treble wired out of phase, and they really sound breathtakingly clear. I was able to use quite a small bass coil with that one, 0.7mH IIRC.
The efficient 8" Monitor Audio R300/MD had a similarly useless crossover originally and a metal dome 19TAF/G SEAS tweeter that I grew to loathe. I could only slightly improve it, before a complete redesign. They now sound quite wonderful with that little £6 Monacor HT22/8 tweeter on a proper KEF type 2nd/3rd order crossover with a 1.5mH coil.
Below is the original MA crossover, and the limited improvement I could give it short of redesign. It really should go in the trash, IMO. You might get away with it with a polycone, but not with a paper bass.
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Manufactured crossovers from 'off the shelf speakers' are terrible. Yes a lot of them get drivers to blend well and get a flat response, but they are clearly the best low component as possible with the best sound. They frustrate me even better quality components will be justifiable for the price people pay for the speakers.
I have a Mission centre speaker with cheapo minimal components just changing the 4.7uF electro cap to a same value poly cap had better results.
I'm impressed the Sony's having Eminence woofers I used to own a pair of 2 way 12" Eminence PA speakers, much better than the Makenzie I had before. Which are your favourite out of the three you own?
I agree stock crossovers should be in the trash and I like the way you have redesigned them
I have a Mission centre speaker with cheapo minimal components just changing the 4.7uF electro cap to a same value poly cap had better results.
I'm impressed the Sony's having Eminence woofers
I used to own a pair of 2 way 12" Eminence PA speakers, much better than the Makenzie I had before. Which are your favourite out of the three you own?I agree stock crossovers should be in the trash and I like the way you have redesigned them
Manufactured crossovers from 'off the shelf speakers' are terrible. Yes a lot of them get drivers to blend well and get a flat response, but they are clearly the best low component as possible with the best sound. They frustrate me even better quality components will be justifiable for the price people pay for the speakers.
I have a Mission centre speaker with cheapo minimal components just changing the 4.7uF electro cap to a same value poly cap had better results.
I'm impressed the Sony's having Eminence woofers
I agree stock crossovers should be in the trash and I like the way you have redesigned them
The Modified Monitor Audio closed box wins hands down for easy listening and natural bass. I love it! You don't need to do much to 8" bass because it has lots of natural rolloff anyway. The near-Zobel just takes out the cone breakup around 5kHz.
These graphs should be taken as a guess as to what is going on, because the Visaton W200S is a very high inductance woofer unlike the Elac unit MA fitted, but you can see that phase aligns nicely at ca. 3kHz crossover, which is where it really matters. The crossover is exactly what I am using.
That Monacor HT22-8 cone tweeter is a little smooth gem. Maybe metal dustcaps can work well.
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