Good lord, I thought I was using too many words 
I'm not going to quote a lot, otherwise the post will get out of hand.
Let me try to paraphrase in short the reasons why pro drivers are good and hifi driver are not:
1) pro drivers incorporate more advanced design features than for instance the faraday ring made for advertising. But this comes at a cost (how much?). Other measures (which remain unknown to me) are only OEM, so they're unavailable for DIY ppl and small loudspeaker businesses.
2) Higher sensitivity comes with higher Sd... so a 15"pro driver will beat any 6,5" midbass...
3) Eddy current theoretically can cause hundreds of % at higher spl. Some firgures are given, but it remains unclear what the contribution of eddy current is in terms of dist %
I think you're being rather black/white about hifi/pro. You could also interprete the above as follows:
1) If the driver is made of unobtanium, it is of little use to me and other diy.
2) Hmmm... This is true of any driver. Comparing a 15" and a 6.5" is rather unnecessary. This is not a a virtue of pro drivers, but of pure physics.
3) The quoted figures sound like a lot of distortion, but I can't interprete it, because I have no reference of the presumed superior performance of pro drivers.
All of a sudden pro doesn't look like as good anymore. It's partly unavailable, but always big and expensive.
Now, how do similarly priced and available pro driver and hifi driver of the same size compare (size and price usually are the major compromises in speakerdesign)? Is the pro driver still inherently better?
If so, why don't I see vastly lower % numbers from pro drivers in the many driver test in K&T and HH (Hobby Hifi as you probably know). Granted, they normally show K2, K3 an K5 at 80db and 90db spl, so that not close to your standards of realistic reproduction. However, the superior dist % should already show on the 90db graphs, right?
If you would want to share specific brands and models of pro driver that compete with any hifi driver at the same price, I'd really like to hear about them. For now, they remain an unknown breed of drivers, which also contain some very mediocre drivers sold as pro (not all the crap is sold under 'hifi'). If there are much better drivers, I'd like to be introduced asap
I'm not going to quote a lot, otherwise the post will get out of hand.
Let me try to paraphrase in short the reasons why pro drivers are good and hifi driver are not:
1) pro drivers incorporate more advanced design features than for instance the faraday ring made for advertising. But this comes at a cost (how much?). Other measures (which remain unknown to me) are only OEM, so they're unavailable for DIY ppl and small loudspeaker businesses.
2) Higher sensitivity comes with higher Sd... so a 15"pro driver will beat any 6,5" midbass...
3) Eddy current theoretically can cause hundreds of % at higher spl. Some firgures are given, but it remains unclear what the contribution of eddy current is in terms of dist %
I think you're being rather black/white about hifi/pro. You could also interprete the above as follows:
1) If the driver is made of unobtanium, it is of little use to me and other diy.
2) Hmmm... This is true of any driver. Comparing a 15" and a 6.5" is rather unnecessary. This is not a a virtue of pro drivers, but of pure physics.
3) The quoted figures sound like a lot of distortion, but I can't interprete it, because I have no reference of the presumed superior performance of pro drivers.
All of a sudden pro doesn't look like as good anymore. It's partly unavailable, but always big and expensive.
Now, how do similarly priced and available pro driver and hifi driver of the same size compare (size and price usually are the major compromises in speakerdesign)? Is the pro driver still inherently better?
If so, why don't I see vastly lower % numbers from pro drivers in the many driver test in K&T and HH (Hobby Hifi as you probably know). Granted, they normally show K2, K3 an K5 at 80db and 90db spl, so that not close to your standards of realistic reproduction. However, the superior dist % should already show on the 90db graphs, right?
If you would want to share specific brands and models of pro driver that compete with any hifi driver at the same price, I'd really like to hear about them. For now, they remain an unknown breed of drivers, which also contain some very mediocre drivers sold as pro (not all the crap is sold under 'hifi'
). If there are much better drivers, I'd like to be introduced asap
Konnichiwa,
I never claimed "Pro Driver good, HiFi Driver bad". I merely pointed out that most typhical so-called "HiFi" drivers are by fundamental design incapable of producing realistic sound pressure levels without gross distortion and compression.
I pointed out that the positioning of the Faraday ring outside the magnet gap of the driver significantly reduces the effect of having one. Hence I called it an "advertising feature".
How long is a piece of string? Well made Pro Audio drivers incorporating advanced magnet systems are now made by both 2nd world suppliers (Selenium in Brazil and P.Audio in Thailand come to mind) and 1st world suppliers (JBL - US, Beyma - Spain, Ciare & RCF - Italy, Volt, ATC and Precision Devices - Uk come readily to my mind). Depending upojn the specific driver chosen and the specific manufacturer the cost varies widely.
I do not know what you are aware of and what not.
Some JBL Drivers and some from Volt, ATC and PD are readily available, however the kind of stuff used by companies like Mayer Sound and Community tends to be more highly developed but unavailable to small scale users. Such is life. Some of the best HiFi units are also not available to DIY Users and small scale manufacturers.
Not quiet. I suggested that for a given bandwidth an increase in sensitivity across the whole range generally requires the driver to be significantly larger in diameter. This means excursion is much smaller for a given LF SPL and thus distortion is much lower.
As we are dealing in physics we usually also have larger voicecoils with a much more effective cooling system in Pro Audio drivers which reduces compression for a given power level over conventional HiFi Drivers. Usually included with that is also a larger magnet system. The result is a driver with overall significantly higher SPL capability for a given SPL at a given Frequency than a smaller Format "High Fidelity" driver, no matter how fancy the cone material and what (halfhearted) measures of distortion control have been applied.
SPL does not come into it.
Unless the EDDY CURRENT LOSS INDUCED DISTORTION is eliminated at the source the distortion follows a simple cubic function of the current. This means at a suitably high current the amounts of harmonics (primarily odd order) produced will become large enough to contain more energy than the fundamental. This translates into > 100% THD at very high levels.
In maost cases the amount of EDDY CURRENT LOSS INDUCED DISTORTION will be below/around 0.1% at 1 Watt. With increased power this distortion rises to the square of the power or the cube of the current.
Not at all. I merely am very black/white about high distortion/compression drivers and low distortion and compression drivers, as I happen to believe that all in a reasonably low level of distortion is a "good thing" and that compression especially is highly destructive of any "fidelity".
Most Pro Drivers are not made from unobtanium. In fact it is one of the last perserves of the well made paper based cone, arguably the best possible and most expensive way of doing things.
The magnet systems are usually superior not by dint of some "unobtanium" but by simple virtue of having been designed to handle very high power at sensible distortion levels, due to their application for high power sound reinforcement. The low compression at "living room" levels are merely a serendipidous side product.
Many excellent Pro Audio drivers are available that can be used as the core of speaker systems with exceptional performance. I suggest you look.
My point. However large format HiFi Drivers are as rare as hen's teeth, those available often are no match for the much better (and longer) developed large format pro drivers and their prices are invariably extortionate compared to any sensible performance Pro Driver.
I do not keep extensive logs, but for simplicity it is fair and accurate to say that the border of "low distortion operation in the midrange for electrodynamic drivers is in the region of around 1 - 4 Watt and with pro driver up to around 10 Watt UNLESS EXTREME measures of distortion control are applied.
As the dominant distortion mechanisms are linked directly to the power and nothing but the rest is a simple milkman calaculation. Having 10db more sensitivity will push eddy current loss induced distortion down by around 20db. It's as simple as that.
It looks just fine.
Unless you know the Pro Audio Shops and distributors that is. Something that can in case of absence be remedies with some research.
That is unavoidable. Small loudspeakers simply lack the ability to play at realistic levels without gross distortion.
It's relative. The complete set of drivers for a 3-Way 15" Woofer based system from Beyma (Studio 15B100R 15" Woofer, 605ND 6.5" Neodymim Magnet Midrange and T2030 Tweeter) can be had for 600 Euro the set. You will get better than -50db THD between 100Hz and pretty much the HF limit (if implemented well) for > 96db/1m and in the midband 3rd harmonics levels below around -60db.
Direct comparison is practically impossible, as no pro audio manufacturer was yet mad enough trying to force small format drivers (6.5" - 8") produce serious LF content. By the time you get to large formats most HiFi drivers tend to be designed as pure subwoofers with resonance that preclude the use as wider band woofer. So you would be comparing apples and potatos.
I have quite a few of the more recent tests from K&T. And surprisingly they usually show the average "Pro" driver to be markedly better than the "average" HiFi speaker. K+T rarely tests any of the true High End Pro Drivers. So comparing a top of the range (for a given manufacturer) HiFi Driver to a midlle of the range Pro Driver is rarely fair.
As pointed out, due to different approaches there is no diect competetion. A typhical 50Hz LF cutoff (applied, in box) Pro Driver is a 15" Device with 97 - 100db/2.83V/1m Sensitivity. A typhical 50Hz LF cutoff HiFi Driver will tend to be a 6.5" - 7" Device with 85 - 87db/2.83V/1m.
The 15" Pro Driver will likely cost more, though rarely crippelingly more. However, the use of the 15" Pro Driver forces you to move to a 3-Way configuration or a 2-Way configuration using a large size 2" exit Compression Driver Horn, which will put the overall cost up compared to the 6.5" & 1" Tweeter 2-Way box. The overall performance however will equally bear little comparison.
The question is really, do you want to make yourself a speaker with the same fundamental flaws the HiFi Industry sells you?
Sayonara
Hans L said:
I never claimed "Pro Driver good, HiFi Driver bad". I merely pointed out that most typhical so-called "HiFi" drivers are by fundamental design incapable of producing realistic sound pressure levels without gross distortion and compression.
Hans L said:
I pointed out that the positioning of the Faraday ring outside the magnet gap of the driver significantly reduces the effect of having one. Hence I called it an "advertising feature".
Hans L said:
How long is a piece of string? Well made Pro Audio drivers incorporating advanced magnet systems are now made by both 2nd world suppliers (Selenium in Brazil and P.Audio in Thailand come to mind) and 1st world suppliers (JBL - US, Beyma - Spain, Ciare & RCF - Italy, Volt, ATC and Precision Devices - Uk come readily to my mind). Depending upojn the specific driver chosen and the specific manufacturer the cost varies widely.
Hans L said:
I do not know what you are aware of and what not.
Hans L said:
Some JBL Drivers and some from Volt, ATC and PD are readily available, however the kind of stuff used by companies like Mayer Sound and Community tends to be more highly developed but unavailable to small scale users. Such is life. Some of the best HiFi units are also not available to DIY Users and small scale manufacturers.
Hans L said:
Not quiet. I suggested that for a given bandwidth an increase in sensitivity across the whole range generally requires the driver to be significantly larger in diameter. This means excursion is much smaller for a given LF SPL and thus distortion is much lower.
As we are dealing in physics we usually also have larger voicecoils with a much more effective cooling system in Pro Audio drivers which reduces compression for a given power level over conventional HiFi Drivers. Usually included with that is also a larger magnet system. The result is a driver with overall significantly higher SPL capability for a given SPL at a given Frequency than a smaller Format "High Fidelity" driver, no matter how fancy the cone material and what (halfhearted) measures of distortion control have been applied.
Hans L said:
SPL does not come into it.
Unless the EDDY CURRENT LOSS INDUCED DISTORTION is eliminated at the source the distortion follows a simple cubic function of the current. This means at a suitably high current the amounts of harmonics (primarily odd order) produced will become large enough to contain more energy than the fundamental. This translates into > 100% THD at very high levels.
Hans L said:
In maost cases the amount of EDDY CURRENT LOSS INDUCED DISTORTION will be below/around 0.1% at 1 Watt. With increased power this distortion rises to the square of the power or the cube of the current.
Hans L said:
Not at all. I merely am very black/white about high distortion/compression drivers and low distortion and compression drivers, as I happen to believe that all in a reasonably low level of distortion is a "good thing" and that compression especially is highly destructive of any "fidelity".
Hans L said:
Most Pro Drivers are not made from unobtanium. In fact it is one of the last perserves of the well made paper based cone, arguably the best possible and most expensive way of doing things.
The magnet systems are usually superior not by dint of some "unobtanium" but by simple virtue of having been designed to handle very high power at sensible distortion levels, due to their application for high power sound reinforcement. The low compression at "living room" levels are merely a serendipidous side product.
Many excellent Pro Audio drivers are available that can be used as the core of speaker systems with exceptional performance. I suggest you look.
Hans L said:
My point. However large format HiFi Drivers are as rare as hen's teeth, those available often are no match for the much better (and longer) developed large format pro drivers and their prices are invariably extortionate compared to any sensible performance Pro Driver.
Hans L said:
I do not keep extensive logs, but for simplicity it is fair and accurate to say that the border of "low distortion operation in the midrange for electrodynamic drivers is in the region of around 1 - 4 Watt and with pro driver up to around 10 Watt UNLESS EXTREME measures of distortion control are applied.
As the dominant distortion mechanisms are linked directly to the power and nothing but the rest is a simple milkman calaculation. Having 10db more sensitivity will push eddy current loss induced distortion down by around 20db. It's as simple as that.
Hans L said:
It looks just fine.
Hans L said:
Unless you know the Pro Audio Shops and distributors that is. Something that can in case of absence be remedies with some research.
Hans L said:
That is unavoidable. Small loudspeakers simply lack the ability to play at realistic levels without gross distortion.
Hans L said:
It's relative. The complete set of drivers for a 3-Way 15" Woofer based system from Beyma (Studio 15B100R 15" Woofer, 605ND 6.5" Neodymim Magnet Midrange and T2030 Tweeter) can be had for 600 Euro the set. You will get better than -50db THD between 100Hz and pretty much the HF limit (if implemented well) for > 96db/1m and in the midband 3rd harmonics levels below around -60db.
Hans L said:
Direct comparison is practically impossible, as no pro audio manufacturer was yet mad enough trying to force small format drivers (6.5" - 8") produce serious LF content. By the time you get to large formats most HiFi drivers tend to be designed as pure subwoofers with resonance that preclude the use as wider band woofer. So you would be comparing apples and potatos.
Hans L said:
I have quite a few of the more recent tests from K&T. And surprisingly they usually show the average "Pro" driver to be markedly better than the "average" HiFi speaker. K+T rarely tests any of the true High End Pro Drivers. So comparing a top of the range (for a given manufacturer) HiFi Driver to a midlle of the range Pro Driver is rarely fair.
Hans L said:
As pointed out, due to different approaches there is no diect competetion. A typhical 50Hz LF cutoff (applied, in box) Pro Driver is a 15" Device with 97 - 100db/2.83V/1m Sensitivity. A typhical 50Hz LF cutoff HiFi Driver will tend to be a 6.5" - 7" Device with 85 - 87db/2.83V/1m.
The 15" Pro Driver will likely cost more, though rarely crippelingly more. However, the use of the 15" Pro Driver forces you to move to a 3-Way configuration or a 2-Way configuration using a large size 2" exit Compression Driver Horn, which will put the overall cost up compared to the 6.5" & 1" Tweeter 2-Way box. The overall performance however will equally bear little comparison.
The question is really, do you want to make yourself a speaker with the same fundamental flaws the HiFi Industry sells you?
Sayonara
It's a pity you seem more eager to refute every sentence I wrote or correct the semantics where both of us know what the point was, instead of replying a little more to the point.
Of course these pro drivers have 'different approaches', but that doesn't mean there is no 'direct competition'. We're all trying to make loudspeakers that faithfully reproduce sourcematerial. If the goal is the same, a direct comparison is possible.
Designing speakers has always been a balance between spl, bandwidth, size (both volume and width) and price. Many ppl aren't willing to let a 15" into their rooms, let alone the onclosure that comes with it, which is the whole raison d'etre for what you call hifi drivers and the ever so popular 2-way monitors. Most diy are well aware of their compromises (at least I hope so). This particular DIY is currently building a 4-way that has a total Sd of of 2339cm^2 and a bandwidth limited to a genuine 40-22000Hz. Granted, it's a dipole, so excursion will be higher than your examples of closed pro designs, but it serves a purpose (more direct sound at listening position).
I have a bunch of K&T, mostly of the last 2-3 years. Please point me to tests of pro drivers so I can evaluate the data. And could you name a few of the true High End Pro Drivers as well?
Of course these pro drivers have 'different approaches', but that doesn't mean there is no 'direct competition'. We're all trying to make loudspeakers that faithfully reproduce sourcematerial. If the goal is the same, a direct comparison is possible.
Designing speakers has always been a balance between spl, bandwidth, size (both volume and width) and price. Many ppl aren't willing to let a 15" into their rooms, let alone the onclosure that comes with it, which is the whole raison d'etre for what you call hifi drivers and the ever so popular 2-way monitors. Most diy are well aware of their compromises (at least I hope so). This particular DIY is currently building a 4-way that has a total Sd of of 2339cm^2 and a bandwidth limited to a genuine 40-22000Hz. Granted, it's a dipole, so excursion will be higher than your examples of closed pro designs, but it serves a purpose (more direct sound at listening position).
I have a bunch of K&T, mostly of the last 2-3 years. Please point me to tests of pro drivers so I can evaluate the data. And could you name a few of the true High End Pro Drivers as well?
Hans L
Some documents are in english.
Try these links:
http://www.steenduelund.dk/download/HJEM3.WPS.pdf
http://www.steenduelund.dk/download/HJEM5A.WPS.pdf
Some documents are in english.
Try these links:
http://www.steenduelund.dk/download/HJEM3.WPS.pdf
http://www.steenduelund.dk/download/HJEM5A.WPS.pdf
Two that come to my mind are the JBL 2226 (15") and 2206 (12"). I have a box using the latter together with a 2344 horn (as used in the 2344 monitor).
If I compare this to a Manger system and a small Dynaudio two-way that I also have, then it becomes immediately clear that the JBL box is starting to "feel comfortable" at SPLs that cause the other two systems to struggle. It sounds dynamic and livelike, though not as neutral as the other two and yes, it is definitely larger as well. So you can't have everything .......
The best situation is if you can simply choose to listen to the one your current mood is calling for.
Regards
Charles
Konnichiwa,
I failed to notice a point besides inaccurate claims that HiFi drivers can be low distortion acoustic sources at realistic levels (others are of academic interest in High Fidelity)
A direct comparison is possible between completed systems, but not on driver level. If you want to compare, take Jamos best floorstander the D 870 (all Seas Drivers, including the Magnesium Cone Midwoofer) and park it next to Tannoy System 15 DMT II Studio Monitor.
The comparison is eminently fair as they list for practically the same amount of money (within 50 Pound) in the UK and have a similar usable LF bandwidth. Of course, the Studio Monitor is Battleship grey and much larger, but surely that matters zip, we are concerend with the sound?
Now, at a guess, which speaker do you think will allow 109db/1m to be played with the lower level of compression and distortion?
The 15" Coaxial Studio Monitor with 101db/1W/1m sensitivity and < 0.5% THD at 1 Watt across the WHOLE usable bandwidth or the Jamo with it's 6.5" Midwoofer, 6.5" 'Bass' (a 6.5" Bass, what a laugh - a 6.5" is small as midrange for serious Audio) and a claimed 91db/2.83V/1m Sensitivity (works out more like 87db/2.83V/1m actually)?
In the commercial market? Of course.
Except we are not dealing with commercial market products. I repeat, if you want to have a decent commercial market type product you are better off buying one off the shelf.
Which means they have to accept limited dynamic range coupled to high distortion and compression, in effect making "High Fidelity" a non-happening item. Now if they conciously chose small size over fidelity, fine with me.
And no matter how much you try polish a turd, with excotic cone materials, ineffective and cheap changes to the magnet system (Seas, Dynaudio, Scanspeak and ATC are exceptions, they do make some drivers that are significantly lower than average distortion, but most of their drivers are not up to the same standards either and their lower distortion drivers loose more sensitivity, eating up some of the distortion reduction) and other marketing blender "solutions" that solve nothing, it remains what you started out with.
A substantial compromise in fidelity for making a small "box".
Judging by the many discussions in DIY Circles about which particular 6.5" Driver to use and the like, I suspect not, actually.
I am a great Fan of dipoles. As soon as my current round of commercial development work is over the sort of speaker I described earlier (15" Coaxial for covering upper bass to lower treble, dipolar with short waveguide, 21" or larger actively driven Dipole Woofer and seperate sealed box "Infra Woofer" below around 40Hz and supertweeter) will be build. The 15" Tannoy Drivers are waiting, I will soon make a final choice on the 21" (after hearing a few of them).
Most of the stuff I kept/keep is much earlier, the most recent stuff is 2000 (the big coax test).
JBL has a whole range of Drivers that are exceptional, you find them in the K2 (Home) Speakers and they where found in earlier versions in the Everest and other JBL "High End" speakers. You also find these drivers in JBL's large format studio monitor. Commercially available nd making a good Home speaker are:
2226 - 15" Woofer - 97db/2.83V/1m, Power compression at 60 Watt input < 0.7db, 2nd & 3rd harmonic in the Midband < 1% at 60 Watt Input. SPL Produced with < 1% THD and free from compression hence around 115db/1m
2212H - 10" Midrange - usable sensitivity 96db/2.83V/1m midband, Power compression at 30 Watt input < 0.6db, 2nd & 3rd harmonic in the Midband < 1% at 30 Watt Input. SPL Produced with < 1% THD hence around 111db/1m
Add a nice Compression Tweeter like the 2404 and you have a Speaker system with exceptional dynamic range and wide bandwidth, which shows exactly what is wrong with conventional "HiFi".
Sayonara
Hans L said:
I failed to notice a point besides inaccurate claims that HiFi drivers can be low distortion acoustic sources at realistic levels (others are of academic interest in High Fidelity)
Hans L said:
A direct comparison is possible between completed systems, but not on driver level. If you want to compare, take Jamos best floorstander the D 870 (all Seas Drivers, including the Magnesium Cone Midwoofer) and park it next to Tannoy System 15 DMT II Studio Monitor.
The comparison is eminently fair as they list for practically the same amount of money (within 50 Pound) in the UK and have a similar usable LF bandwidth. Of course, the Studio Monitor is Battleship grey and much larger, but surely that matters zip, we are concerend with the sound?
Now, at a guess, which speaker do you think will allow 109db/1m to be played with the lower level of compression and distortion?
The 15" Coaxial Studio Monitor with 101db/1W/1m sensitivity and < 0.5% THD at 1 Watt across the WHOLE usable bandwidth or the Jamo with it's 6.5" Midwoofer, 6.5" 'Bass' (a 6.5" Bass, what a laugh - a 6.5" is small as midrange for serious Audio) and a claimed 91db/2.83V/1m Sensitivity (works out more like 87db/2.83V/1m actually)?
Hans L said:
In the commercial market? Of course.
Except we are not dealing with commercial market products. I repeat, if you want to have a decent commercial market type product you are better off buying one off the shelf.
Hans L said:
Which means they have to accept limited dynamic range coupled to high distortion and compression, in effect making "High Fidelity" a non-happening item. Now if they conciously chose small size over fidelity, fine with me.
And no matter how much you try polish a turd, with excotic cone materials, ineffective and cheap changes to the magnet system (Seas, Dynaudio, Scanspeak and ATC are exceptions, they do make some drivers that are significantly lower than average distortion, but most of their drivers are not up to the same standards either and their lower distortion drivers loose more sensitivity, eating up some of the distortion reduction) and other marketing blender "solutions" that solve nothing, it remains what you started out with.
A substantial compromise in fidelity for making a small "box".
Hans L said:
Judging by the many discussions in DIY Circles about which particular 6.5" Driver to use and the like, I suspect not, actually.
Hans L said:
I am a great Fan of dipoles. As soon as my current round of commercial development work is over the sort of speaker I described earlier (15" Coaxial for covering upper bass to lower treble, dipolar with short waveguide, 21" or larger actively driven Dipole Woofer and seperate sealed box "Infra Woofer" below around 40Hz and supertweeter) will be build. The 15" Tannoy Drivers are waiting, I will soon make a final choice on the 21" (after hearing a few of them).
Hans L said:
Most of the stuff I kept/keep is much earlier, the most recent stuff is 2000 (the big coax test).
Hans L said:
JBL has a whole range of Drivers that are exceptional, you find them in the K2 (Home) Speakers and they where found in earlier versions in the Everest and other JBL "High End" speakers. You also find these drivers in JBL's large format studio monitor. Commercially available nd making a good Home speaker are:
2226 - 15" Woofer - 97db/2.83V/1m, Power compression at 60 Watt input < 0.7db, 2nd & 3rd harmonic in the Midband < 1% at 60 Watt Input. SPL Produced with < 1% THD and free from compression hence around 115db/1m
2212H - 10" Midrange - usable sensitivity 96db/2.83V/1m midband, Power compression at 30 Watt input < 0.6db, 2nd & 3rd harmonic in the Midband < 1% at 30 Watt Input. SPL Produced with < 1% THD hence around 111db/1m
Add a nice Compression Tweeter like the 2404 and you have a Speaker system with exceptional dynamic range and wide bandwidth, which shows exactly what is wrong with conventional "HiFi".
Sayonara
I'm thoroughly tempted to try such a design.
I'd have to check where I can get my hands on JBL's in my vicinity and what the prices are. The Netherlands can be a dissapointment in this regard sometimes. I do have good and cheap access to P-audio (which you mentioned before), PHL, Craaft (any good??) and a few Peerless woofers that are positioned as pro drivers as well (1381400-1381403).
Could you (or others) comment on these specific drivers?
I'd have to check where I can get my hands on JBL's in my vicinity and what the prices are. The Netherlands can be a dissapointment in this regard sometimes. I do have good and cheap access to P-audio (which you mentioned before), PHL, Craaft (any good??) and a few Peerless woofers that are positioned as pro drivers as well (1381400-1381403).
Could you (or others) comment on these specific drivers?
Konnichiwa,
JBL is expensive. You can get pretty decent JBL Copies from P.Audio.
Of the above P.Audio is variable, they have some excellent drivers and some poor ones. PHL would be my best bet, the Pass Labs Rushmore Speaker (4 Way active, Ribbon, 6.5" Midrange, 10" Midwoofer, 15" Woofer/Sub, pass Labs Amplificiation and active X-Over build in) uses a range of PHL Drivers. I think you can search thishere Board for Pass and Rushmore and come up with a Thread that disccusses this in detail and names the drivers.
You can search the rest of the net for other details on the Pass Rushmore....
One of my favourite commercial Speakers in the UK was an SD Audio made one which used a 13" Audax Pro Woofer, the classic 6.5" Audax Pro Midrange (modified) and a modified Visaton Ribbon Tweeter. It managed to be reasonably sized and only gave up really low bass, but boy this thing sound alive. The rest of the Speakers they had in that shop sounded complete pants in comparison and they had some really high price High End stuff there too. Someone traded them in, poor deluded fool.... ;-)
Worthwhile looking at are older K+T if you can get them. They had at least two nice projects whcih where 15" Pro Woofer, 6.5" Cone Midrange and Horn Tweeter, namely the Audax Pro 38 Kit and a rather similar design using Sammi (Korea) drivers. I used the same Sammi Drivers for Club PA and it sounded great.
Sayonara
Hans L said:I'm thoroughly tempted to try such a design.
I'd have to check where I can get my hands on JBL's in my vicinity and what the prices are.
JBL is expensive. You can get pretty decent JBL Copies from P.Audio.
Hans L said:
Of the above P.Audio is variable, they have some excellent drivers and some poor ones. PHL would be my best bet, the Pass Labs Rushmore Speaker (4 Way active, Ribbon, 6.5" Midrange, 10" Midwoofer, 15" Woofer/Sub, pass Labs Amplificiation and active X-Over build in) uses a range of PHL Drivers. I think you can search thishere Board for Pass and Rushmore and come up with a Thread that disccusses this in detail and names the drivers.
You can search the rest of the net for other details on the Pass Rushmore....
One of my favourite commercial Speakers in the UK was an SD Audio made one which used a 13" Audax Pro Woofer, the classic 6.5" Audax Pro Midrange (modified) and a modified Visaton Ribbon Tweeter. It managed to be reasonably sized and only gave up really low bass, but boy this thing sound alive. The rest of the Speakers they had in that shop sounded complete pants in comparison and they had some really high price High End stuff there too. Someone traded them in, poor deluded fool.... ;-)
Worthwhile looking at are older K+T if you can get them. They had at least two nice projects whcih where 15" Pro Woofer, 6.5" Cone Midrange and Horn Tweeter, namely the Audax Pro 38 Kit and a rather similar design using Sammi (Korea) drivers. I used the same Sammi Drivers for Club PA and it sounded great.
Sayonara
@Rarkov
Oh Yes really goog
, for me Manger ist "Simply the Best". My next Loudspeaker Projekt will also be Zerobox 103 (Aktiv!).
6 MSW+Holoprofil
4-16 (Compound or Closed?) Vifas (I just think about it, what would be the best)*
Activ Crossover
Cabinet: Sandwich with MDF, Multiply, Bitumen and Hawaphon (look to Accupulse http://users.skynet.be/accupulse/)
*Accupulse uses 8 Backes und Müller Subs, but I dont know how it works with the Manger. I heard the Manger with the Vifas Subs and I liked it very much.
Normi
Ps...this ist my first Post. Sorry for my bad English.
Ps2....my Loudspeakers at the moment are:
1. ACR (Klipsch) "Eckhorn" (Aktiv) with 38er Fostex L...?, Passiv: Midbass 30cm Fostex L-362 (Frontloaded Horn), MT H-220 with Fostex 2" Driver Titan and HT Fostex T-925
Oh Yes really goog
, for me Manger ist "Simply the Best". My next Loudspeaker Projekt will also be Zerobox 103 (Aktiv!).6 MSW+Holoprofil
4-16 (Compound or Closed?) Vifas (I just think about it, what would be the best)*
Activ Crossover
Cabinet: Sandwich with MDF, Multiply, Bitumen and Hawaphon (look to Accupulse http://users.skynet.be/accupulse/)
*Accupulse uses 8 Backes und Müller Subs, but I dont know how it works with the Manger. I heard the Manger with the Vifas Subs and I liked it very much.
Normi
Ps...this ist my first Post. Sorry for my bad English.
Ps2....my Loudspeakers at the moment are:
1. ACR (Klipsch) "Eckhorn" (Aktiv) with 38er Fostex L...?, Passiv: Midbass 30cm Fostex L-362 (Frontloaded Horn), MT H-220 with Fostex 2" Driver Titan and HT Fostex T-925
Hi Normi
There is one important thing when you want to use Hawaphon: Don't buy this stuff from any speaker kit dealers. You would pay three times as much as would be regarded reasonable.
This stuff is not originally intended for speakers but for sound insulation of walls, doors etc. Now try to imagine how much a simple wall would cost if some Hawaphon is applied at the prices the speaker dealers ask for !!! So go and get it at dealers for carpentry material.
I already mailed this fact to the editor of "Hobby Hifi" about two months ago but you won't read about it in the mag .......
regards
Charles
There is one important thing when you want to use Hawaphon: Don't buy this stuff from any speaker kit dealers. You would pay three times as much as would be regarded reasonable.
This stuff is not originally intended for speakers but for sound insulation of walls, doors etc. Now try to imagine how much a simple wall would cost if some Hawaphon is applied at the prices the speaker dealers ask for !!! So go and get it at dealers for carpentry material.
I already mailed this fact to the editor of "Hobby Hifi" about two months ago but you won't read about it in the mag .......
regards
Charles
Interesting thread!
KYW,
it would appear from what you've said (if i understand correctly) that if the "ultimate DIY speakers", would actually be relatively cheap if they were only required to have the bandwidth and dynamic range required for "girl n guitar " type music?
Or, if one were prepared to forsake the infra bass (for social reasons maybe) then the same would also be true. Or would missing part of the recorded bandwidth be considered a type of distortion? i read carefully, but could not decide.......
KYW,
it would appear from what you've said (if i understand correctly) that if the "ultimate DIY speakers", would actually be relatively cheap if they were only required to have the bandwidth and dynamic range required for "girl n guitar " type music?
Or, if one were prepared to forsake the infra bass (for social reasons maybe) then the same would also be true. Or would missing part of the recorded bandwidth be considered a type of distortion? i read carefully, but could not decide.......
Konnichiwa,
Up to a point.
Neither can I. In my current System the Open Baffle "satellites" cover down to 50Hz and drop out like a stone after that and are pretty flat up to10KHz with a little loss at 15Khz and then again dropping like a stone. Sensitivity is around 95-96db/2.83V/1m.
These on their own do fine for "Girl and Guitar" and actually quite a bit bigger stuff. HOWEVER, adding two relatively small sealed subs below the Satellites (REL Quake with X-Over set to 40Hz) and Supertweeters above does bring out a lot of things better. So, a system with carfully tailored bandwidth can be rather satisfying if it lacks any obvious faults, but it is preferable to cover the full range.
Sayonara
Mark25 said:
Up to a point.
Mark25 said:
Neither can I. In my current System the Open Baffle "satellites" cover down to 50Hz and drop out like a stone after that and are pretty flat up to10KHz with a little loss at 15Khz and then again dropping like a stone. Sensitivity is around 95-96db/2.83V/1m.
These on their own do fine for "Girl and Guitar" and actually quite a bit bigger stuff. HOWEVER, adding two relatively small sealed subs below the Satellites (REL Quake with X-Over set to 40Hz) and Supertweeters above does bring out a lot of things better. So, a system with carfully tailored bandwidth can be rather satisfying if it lacks any obvious faults, but it is preferable to cover the full range.
Sayonara
I'm coming to this thread rather late, but some of it's been rather interesting stuff.
I've actually been coming around to seeing things close to how KYW describes them over the past while. I found SL's distortion measurements very revealing and came away thinking that a single driver of the types he tested just couldn't deliver high output and low distortion. Unless you're listening nearfield (which is an option to consider), you are likely to run into problems with spl and dynamics .
Another way to realize lower distortion and lower compression at high SPL is a line array - multiple drivers in an array accomplish somewhat the same things as the high-efficiency pro drivers, albeit with different trade-offs. The cone area is increased which decreases the excursion, and the fact that you are paralleling the drivers will increase the effective efficiency and hence reduce the eddy-current related distortions. In fact, due to the 1/r falloff characteristics, line arrays might even be a better way to accomplish these things in larger rooms where listening distance is large-ish to the speakers.
Cost is a pretty big downside for high-end arrays. The Selah "Incredarray" using Seas W15 and Fountek JP2 ribbons (with 2 12" powered woofs per side) runs something like $7k USD for the *kit*, although it would appear to be among the best examples of it's type.
KYW - do you have any experience with the P.Audio coax drivers? I'd been thinking of dabbling in the high-efficiency area via an Adire HE kit, but the P.Audio drivers look like they might be a step up from the eminences used in the Adire. Looking at the 10's and 12's mostly - BM-10CXA, BM-12CXA, BM-12CX38. Any other suggestions in the 2-300/side realm? (any higher than that, and I figure I might as well just save for some Tannoys or something)
I've actually been coming around to seeing things close to how KYW describes them over the past while. I found SL's distortion measurements very revealing and came away thinking that a single driver of the types he tested just couldn't deliver high output and low distortion. Unless you're listening nearfield (which is an option to consider), you are likely to run into problems with spl and dynamics .
Another way to realize lower distortion and lower compression at high SPL is a line array - multiple drivers in an array accomplish somewhat the same things as the high-efficiency pro drivers, albeit with different trade-offs. The cone area is increased which decreases the excursion, and the fact that you are paralleling the drivers will increase the effective efficiency and hence reduce the eddy-current related distortions. In fact, due to the 1/r falloff characteristics, line arrays might even be a better way to accomplish these things in larger rooms where listening distance is large-ish to the speakers.
Cost is a pretty big downside for high-end arrays. The Selah "Incredarray" using Seas W15 and Fountek JP2 ribbons (with 2 12" powered woofs per side) runs something like $7k USD for the *kit*, although it would appear to be among the best examples of it's type.
KYW - do you have any experience with the P.Audio coax drivers? I'd been thinking of dabbling in the high-efficiency area via an Adire HE kit, but the P.Audio drivers look like they might be a step up from the eminences used in the Adire. Looking at the 10's and 12's mostly - BM-10CXA, BM-12CXA, BM-12CX38. Any other suggestions in the 2-300/side realm? (any higher than that, and I figure I might as well just save for some Tannoys or something)
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Thought i'd resurect this thread, because i'm not happy in my own mind with everything that's been said.
KYW - looked at your website, the system your are refering to in this thread doesn't seem to be there yet. (you have to listen when people with phono psu's like THAT post !!)
Anyway; i'm happy to accept that a supertweeter can make a difference. But find adding un-used b/w at the bottom end, being an improvement, altogether harder to digest. Have you tried just the supertweeter and just the subs?
Also; according to Rod Elliott
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#freq_sel the equal power point for most music is 250 - 350 Hz. Now, if your are so worried about power compression, why have you not rolled the bottom 300Hz or so, of your satellites? Not only would this help with IM, dopler dist', etc. But it would half the power to that 300Hz to 15KHz driver instantly, what am i missing here?
My experience tells me you have the right idea, i just have trouble accepting it. I have tried rolling the bottom 300Hz (@24dB/oct) off a monacor sph-135c bass-mid driver, (kef B110 copy). It doesn't improve the mid signifcantly, or not as much as i think it should anyway.
Cheers
Mark
Konnichiwa,
My system is out of date....
Hmmm. What do you mean "unused"? Slap the body of a guitar and measure the resultant spectrum, it goes VERY low.
Yes.
Because they are a commercial product development which has to satisfy certain requirements that demand certain compromises. And further, the "equal power" point is moderatly irelevant here, as is about anything written on Audio by your cited source, as an aside.
Hmmm. Would it? Music is not two sinewaves.
Music is not a steady state signal. As a result steady state measurements are of only indicative value and require correct interpretation.
Sayonara
Mark25 said:
My system is out of date....
Mark25 said:
Hmmm. What do you mean "unused"? Slap the body of a guitar and measure the resultant spectrum, it goes VERY low.
Mark25 said:
Yes.
Mark25 said:
Because they are a commercial product development which has to satisfy certain requirements that demand certain compromises. And further, the "equal power" point is moderatly irelevant here, as is about anything written on Audio by your cited source, as an aside.
Mark25 said:
Hmmm. Would it? Music is not two sinewaves.
Mark25 said:
Music is not a steady state signal. As a result steady state measurements are of only indicative value and require correct interpretation.
Sayonara
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