That Tang Band 1337 looks interesting! 8 ohm as well. Pondering whether it will like running off a T-amp....should be ok I suppose. I run my little Auratone copy with the Visaton FR12-8 off a T-amp and it likes it rather well. Plenty detail if lacking in ooomph, but that's why I'm thinking run top/mid off another T-amp in this build and the bottom off the modded Adcom GFA545 for plenty ooomph.
Hmmmm, so a few thoughts...
Having the main information come from one point is desirable, i.e. full range or coaxial plus 8" bass. Then there would be the two versions of coaxial, giving point source and no beaming problem/limitation but puts a crossover point into the vital area and makes the whole thing a 3 way (like Pelonis 4288). Or a full range driver with no extra crossover point but beaming instead. Or try DXT's with my existing drivers. Totally different angle. Could be really good too, more like an NS10 on steroids scenario if the crossover is low enough to grab loads of detail out of the DXT's.
Off to ponder on that....
Having the main information come from one point is desirable, i.e. full range or coaxial plus 8" bass. Then there would be the two versions of coaxial, giving point source and no beaming problem/limitation but puts a crossover point into the vital area and makes the whole thing a 3 way (like Pelonis 4288). Or a full range driver with no extra crossover point but beaming instead. Or try DXT's with my existing drivers. Totally different angle. Could be really good too, more like an NS10 on steroids scenario if the crossover is low enough to grab loads of detail out of the DXT's.
Off to ponder on that....
Isn't it too insensitive? Looking at Zaph's measurements, it practically does about 85 dB/W.
Could be. My Visaton FR12-8 is 85dB too, and goes a far way and that is with the full signal inc all bass before the little 2024 T-amp konks out. I think should be ok with a slightly stronger one like a 2050 or so.
Nothing is perfect !
Good drivers come at a price ! If you don't want to be disappointed : put the money in the best drivers. e.g. E0022-08S W22EX001
Well, I ordered the minidsp and the plugin for now.
So when it arrives I can feck about with it and the speakers as they are with the Monacor tweeters (using the Adcom for bass and the T-amp for the tweeters), which go can down to 2khz. This should give me an indication whether that sort of vibe with them replaced for DXT's is forward or not.......
But I am suspecting after playing around with the dsp and current drivers I will have to try the 4" fullrange (Tangband or Markaudio) plus 8" bass just to satisfy my curiosity and find out whether it would do what I think....as if it does I would likely love it......
So when it arrives I can feck about with it and the speakers as they are with the Monacor tweeters (using the Adcom for bass and the T-amp for the tweeters), which go can down to 2khz. This should give me an indication whether that sort of vibe with them replaced for DXT's is forward or not.......
But I am suspecting after playing around with the dsp and current drivers I will have to try the 4" fullrange (Tangband or Markaudio) plus 8" bass just to satisfy my curiosity and find out whether it would do what I think....as if it does I would likely love it......
Booooyahh.....those cost actual money.
Let's see...if I go for the full range plus 8" thing I'll likely partition the money in favour of the full range and get a decent but not frighteningly expensive 8" to back him up......that Tangband 1337 looks good though and not even that expensive.
This looks interesting:
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1230_04/w4-1757sb.htm
Anyone know it/have any experience with it? The top over 10K looks more even than the other Tangbands....
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1230_04/w4-1757sb.htm
Anyone know it/have any experience with it? The top over 10K looks more even than the other Tangbands....
Hmmm, but he had the b, not the sb. Maybe they differ, as I'm not sure the sb's chart amounts to a 'serious hickup at 2khz'......does dip a bit, but....
Tangband .. I own the W5-1685 ... The best from Tangband, big piece of cake but not well design. The sound is clean but dead, miss life. I prefer my Peerless 830656 or 830991, they sound better and they are better designed and made.
I don't know if i have a problem with these Chinese drivers, i have the same experiment with the Fountek FR88EX. I wonder if Tangband (or Fountek) listens to theirs drivers
They don't sound as good as a Danish or Norwegian drivers.
In conclusion my advice, stay with a well proven manufacturer.
I don't know if i have a problem with these Chinese drivers, i have the same experiment with the Fountek FR88EX. I wonder if Tangband (or Fountek) listens to theirs drivers
They don't sound as good as a Danish or Norwegian drivers.
In conclusion my advice, stay with a well proven manufacturer.
Tangband .. I own the W5-1685 ... The best from Tangband, big piece of cake but not well design. The sound is clean but dead, miss life. I prefer my Peerless 830656 or 830991, they sound better and they are better designed and made.
I don't know if i have a problem with these Chinese drivers, i have the same experiment with the Fountek FR88EX. I wonder if Tangband (or Fountek) listens to theirs drivers
They don't sound as good as a Danish or Norwegian drivers.
In conclusion my advice, stay with a well proven manufacturer.
Ok. That sounds like the kind of critical opinion I have a fear of agreeing with when trying speakers out....and finding it too late once I have them bought. I almost just ordered a couple of W4-1320SJ's a minute ago, but something stopped me......
From your quality standpoint, what 4" or maybe even 3" full range driver would you recommend?
I have two of them in my head :
VIFA : Vifa TC9FD18-08
SCANSPEAK : Scan Speak Discovery 10F/4424G00 or 10F/8424G00
See Zaph measurement for both
Zaph|Audio
Also look at this coaxial driver ?
H1602-04/06 L12RE/XFC
VIFA : Vifa TC9FD18-08
SCANSPEAK : Scan Speak Discovery 10F/4424G00 or 10F/8424G00
See Zaph measurement for both
Zaph|Audio
Also look at this coaxial driver ?
H1602-04/06 L12RE/XFC
The 10F/8424G00 is an amazing driver in terms of specification. Needs crossing to a woofer, but other then that would be a very good starting point.
As you've noticed it has a ruler flat and extended response.
Personally though I think it needs a tweeter, but will do okay without one.
I think as a place to start it would probably be a good idea. The driver itself is very high quality with Scanspeak quality control and lends itself to a great number of design ideas. It will work on its own as a full range, but it will also give you an easy way of turning the 8" + full range into a three way. The ruler flat response should make designing a crossover that much easier and due to it's small size can be used with a small neo tweeter so that C2C spacing is very low. This, when combined with a ~2.5kHz xover, should give you decent freedom from vertical off axis issues.
If I were faced with a design decision such as the one you've been confronted with, my first choice would be to use the SEAS L12 Coax + a suitable bass driver. My second choice would be to use a small format midrange (such as the 10F) in combination with a small neo tweeter + the 8" and cross the mid and tweeter low enough so that vertical off axis issues are minimised.
These are both obviously three ways.
My third choice would be to use an 8" as a mid/bass with something like the DXT, crossed over low and steep. My fourth choice would be to use a full range driver as it would be, in my opinion, the most inherently limited by design, but if you use something like the 10F it has lots of future potential. You could say that any full range driver would have the potential, but on paper, those little scanspeaks are rather superb and would be a lot of peoples first choice as a small format midrange driver.
As you've noticed it has a ruler flat and extended response.
Personally though I think it needs a tweeter, but will do okay without one.
I think as a place to start it would probably be a good idea. The driver itself is very high quality with Scanspeak quality control and lends itself to a great number of design ideas. It will work on its own as a full range, but it will also give you an easy way of turning the 8" + full range into a three way. The ruler flat response should make designing a crossover that much easier and due to it's small size can be used with a small neo tweeter so that C2C spacing is very low. This, when combined with a ~2.5kHz xover, should give you decent freedom from vertical off axis issues.
If I were faced with a design decision such as the one you've been confronted with, my first choice would be to use the SEAS L12 Coax + a suitable bass driver. My second choice would be to use a small format midrange (such as the 10F) in combination with a small neo tweeter + the 8" and cross the mid and tweeter low enough so that vertical off axis issues are minimised.
These are both obviously three ways.
My third choice would be to use an 8" as a mid/bass with something like the DXT, crossed over low and steep. My fourth choice would be to use a full range driver as it would be, in my opinion, the most inherently limited by design, but if you use something like the 10F it has lots of future potential. You could say that any full range driver would have the potential, but on paper, those little scanspeaks are rather superb and would be a lot of peoples first choice as a small format midrange driver.
Wow, they measure very well, don't they. The Vifa one too, although it costs spit....lol. $13 worth! Impressive!
But I think this has just sorted my confusion. The Scanspeak 10F/8424G00 and I are going to become more closely aquainted. The fact it will fit perfectly into the box is just icing on the cake, and the look of the measurements, Krutke's good words and the Scanspeak name all feels like a nice, warm place to cuddle up to with my hopes........not totally for free, those, but that feels right. Far from expensive.
Thank you jerome69, I can sense i could end up very grateful for your putting the good info in my thread just at the right moment.....
But I think this has just sorted my confusion. The Scanspeak 10F/8424G00 and I are going to become more closely aquainted. The fact it will fit perfectly into the box is just icing on the cake, and the look of the measurements, Krutke's good words and the Scanspeak name all feels like a nice, warm place to cuddle up to with my hopes........not totally for free, those, but that feels right. Far from expensive.
Thank you jerome69, I can sense i could end up very grateful for your putting the good info in my thread just at the right moment.....
Just be aware that an extended range driver wont be as "detailed" in the treble despite measuring flat to 20khz.
Even if you sit on axis, there will be less room interaction / delayed reflections compared to a dome tweeter and the sound signature will be different also (often less sibilant).
You'll need to be conscious of the translatability of your mixes to the common "2-way with dome tweeter" typology. It might be worth checking your first few efforts against a another system if you can, to give yourself a reference point.
Even if you sit on axis, there will be less room interaction / delayed reflections compared to a dome tweeter and the sound signature will be different also (often less sibilant).
You'll need to be conscious of the translatability of your mixes to the common "2-way with dome tweeter" typology. It might be worth checking your first few efforts against a another system if you can, to give yourself a reference point.
hmmm........sort of worrying to put out the cash with that in mind. I want the different signature and do have a pair of 'normal' speakers with (silk) dome tweeters next to them, so not so worried about that, but when more than one person starts mentioning missing detail I start wondering whether maybe I just need a really, really good tweeter instead, that can cross as low as possible.....do want as much detail as possible.
Well I think that a dome tweeter has less "detail" in the upper midrange versus a dedicated midrange driver so you need to pick your compromise. A smaller dome tweeter will appear to have more resolution in the higher octaves than a larger one but will not perform as well down low. There is no perfect transducer.
If it were me I'd try the 8" woofer with the scan speak and work on adding a small tweeter at some point in the future.
However if you want to play it my safe and dont want to tinker with a 3-way build, go for a proven 2-way cone + dome design. I would not go down this route personally for casual listening but for studio monitoring the requirements are different.
The Scan Speak D2608/913000 tweeter is good choice if you don't want to use a waveguide loaded tweeter like the DXT. It can handle a 1.5khz crossover to an 8-inch driver and subjectively it is very dry, clean and detailed.
I'd also recommend foam blocks if you do decide to use a dome, especially if you are averse to using a waveguide.
If it were me I'd try the 8" woofer with the scan speak and work on adding a small tweeter at some point in the future.
However if you want to play it my safe and dont want to tinker with a 3-way build, go for a proven 2-way cone + dome design. I would not go down this route personally for casual listening but for studio monitoring the requirements are different.
The Scan Speak D2608/913000 tweeter is good choice if you don't want to use a waveguide loaded tweeter like the DXT. It can handle a 1.5khz crossover to an 8-inch driver and subjectively it is very dry, clean and detailed.
I'd also recommend foam blocks if you do decide to use a dome, especially if you are averse to using a waveguide.
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Wow....more good, helpful points. I guess what you're saying is just rational sense, but it brought me back from an emotional "oh, no....." about the SS mid driver. Good points indeed, and I DO want the mid resolution and the point source/all from one place for the mid range more than the very high top resolution. I have that covered sufficiently with my other speakers already. To put a magnifying glass on the mids, with punch/speed and some welly to go with it was the original intention with these and still is....so back on the plan then. Like you say, at worst I could add tweeter on the end....
Regardless, first I'll wait for the minidsp to arrive and do some experimenting with the DT-101sk tweeters in there now. They can go to 2khz (3.2khz at the mo with the original shitty Studiospares crossover), so should tell me whether a lower crossed tweeter scenario with a tweaked crossover gets me there, in which case that SS tweeter looks interesting indeed. But likely straight after that I'll order the mids......
Regardless, first I'll wait for the minidsp to arrive and do some experimenting with the DT-101sk tweeters in there now. They can go to 2khz (3.2khz at the mo with the original shitty Studiospares crossover), so should tell me whether a lower crossed tweeter scenario with a tweaked crossover gets me there, in which case that SS tweeter looks interesting indeed. But likely straight after that I'll order the mids......
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