sam9 said:
Hi,
No one does but as a manufacturer, if you can improve something, why not doing it.
It seems obvious to me that by cooling the transformer with some air coming from the heat sink is better than nothing and you improve the power abilities of your power supply.
It cost nothing unless designing you amplifier in such a way that you built it quick and fast and no need to make it done in the Far East to make some extra profit or keep on trying competing!
This has nothing to with the thread but if an engineer takes some time thinking how he can improve the way manufacturing what he is working on, perhaps could he achieve a more performing item!
Commentable Thoughts
Hello French man [pssaudio]
Mr. YURI u claim that u use E-I core transformer on ur WEBSITE whereas , here u just talk about toroidal transformers.
http://www.pssaudio.com/english/1art005.htm
Secondly , In a regular amplifier usage time period ranges from 2 to 24 hours continous sometimes, so can we say that ur cooling system is that much adequate , as it cools ur trannies as well as transformer.
In our amplifeirs we use only E-I Large area cores to enhance convection cooling.
With Regards
ampman
Hello French man [pssaudio]
Mr. YURI u claim that u use E-I core transformer on ur WEBSITE whereas , here u just talk about toroidal transformers.
http://www.pssaudio.com/english/1art005.htm
Secondly , In a regular amplifier usage time period ranges from 2 to 24 hours continous sometimes, so can we say that ur cooling system is that much adequate , as it cools ur trannies as well as transformer.
In our amplifeirs we use only E-I Large area cores to enhance convection cooling.
With Regards
ampman
hi
PSS Audio
i have given a considerable thought to your - applications ,
it may be possible - to quite possible to your claims , i am not arguing firstly
as for some knowledge i used to manfacture Amps - and my products became way ahead for the local market -
i have moulded my own heat sinks -
made a front panel - pressure cast (fully surface grounded with a milled v groove in the between) which is - 26 mm thick (i inch)
the power switch is die cast too mounted on an assembly of 4 - springs
the front panel is 6 inches X 19 inches X 26 mm (contoured by surface grinding)
the chassis is a frame work of heavy guage steel with tap s - and nuts welded (for heavy screws - handles ets)
the handles are pressure cast too
the heatsink is in two L shapes covering the entire sides and back plate
the back panel printing is on the heatsink extension of the back panel and the fins (custom made) on the sides - the depth of the amp is - 19 inch
top plate and the bottom service plate is of heay guage steel - all steel parts fully - electro plated then powder coated
the printing quality is to PHILIPS standards
but yet the chassis was not 15 % of the cost - my point is - it cannot be
and then my age was - 24
i will not lead you to beleave the diy community any figures - which may not be available to them
- well other aspects of my amp ,
fully dual mono - with 4 bridges (2 per toroid)
metal package hitachi k 276 , j 56 out put
the output boards facing each other are - mirrored - therefore if you open the amp the wiring and component place ment is exactly symmetrical
we made the pcb design s with - out the aid of computer designing as it wasnt even popular when i did all this
i acn debate your break up point for point but i will let it be
provided - if what i have made out is true - that
your designs incoporates - products - like the toroids - which are manufactured by
very high quality wires (with a very high degree of impurity in the wire monitoring process set in)
fully machine wound in a controlled & enclosed enviornment -
the wires from manufacture to winding & tranny sealing has not come into contact with any pollutive elements (as this will eat away the insulation over a period of time)
the insulation is rated above 300 deg c (or some where around)
the core of the tranny is highly permeable and
high monitoring of the steel alloy (of the core materiel) is in place
and you have used such a tranny (which will be expensive)
to reduce size and weight of the amp and to help you distribute the components more systamatically there - by improving cooling and serviceability of the amp & the the basic engineering and structure of the amp
then you have a point here -
it is upto you and your conscience and if you ever - introspect to provide such trannies with your amps
as non of users will ever make out (like sreten points out) unless there are guys like us - who normally drive amps at 1.6 ohms -
to 4 modified JBL 2242 / channel
2242 modifications : -
Extra 220 mm X 25 mm general magnetics magent (dual mag) fitted ,
Etended T shape high (mag permeability pole piece
original - thrown out)
Surround changed to custom triple roll m surround with the od of the cone altered
loaded in extremely compact w bins
suranjan
PSS Audio
i have given a considerable thought to your - applications ,
it may be possible - to quite possible to your claims , i am not arguing firstly
as for some knowledge i used to manfacture Amps - and my products became way ahead for the local market -
i have moulded my own heat sinks -
made a front panel - pressure cast (fully surface grounded with a milled v groove in the between) which is - 26 mm thick (i inch)
the power switch is die cast too mounted on an assembly of 4 - springs
the front panel is 6 inches X 19 inches X 26 mm (contoured by surface grinding)
the chassis is a frame work of heavy guage steel with tap s - and nuts welded (for heavy screws - handles ets)
the handles are pressure cast too
the heatsink is in two L shapes covering the entire sides and back plate
the back panel printing is on the heatsink extension of the back panel and the fins (custom made) on the sides - the depth of the amp is - 19 inch
top plate and the bottom service plate is of heay guage steel - all steel parts fully - electro plated then powder coated
the printing quality is to PHILIPS standards
but yet the chassis was not 15 % of the cost - my point is - it cannot be
and then my age was - 24
i will not lead you to beleave the diy community any figures - which may not be available to them
- well other aspects of my amp ,
fully dual mono - with 4 bridges (2 per toroid)
metal package hitachi k 276 , j 56 out put
the output boards facing each other are - mirrored - therefore if you open the amp the wiring and component place ment is exactly symmetrical
we made the pcb design s with - out the aid of computer designing as it wasnt even popular when i did all this
i acn debate your break up point for point but i will let it be
provided - if what i have made out is true - that
your designs incoporates - products - like the toroids - which are manufactured by
very high quality wires (with a very high degree of impurity in the wire monitoring process set in)
fully machine wound in a controlled & enclosed enviornment -
the wires from manufacture to winding & tranny sealing has not come into contact with any pollutive elements (as this will eat away the insulation over a period of time)
the insulation is rated above 300 deg c (or some where around)
the core of the tranny is highly permeable and
high monitoring of the steel alloy (of the core materiel) is in place
and you have used such a tranny (which will be expensive)
to reduce size and weight of the amp and to help you distribute the components more systamatically there - by improving cooling and serviceability of the amp & the the basic engineering and structure of the amp
then you have a point here -
it is upto you and your conscience and if you ever - introspect to provide such trannies with your amps
as non of users will ever make out (like sreten points out) unless there are guys like us - who normally drive amps at 1.6 ohms -
to 4 modified JBL 2242 / channel
2242 modifications : -
Extra 220 mm X 25 mm general magnetics magent (dual mag) fitted ,
Etended T shape high (mag permeability pole piece
original - thrown out)
Surround changed to custom triple roll m surround with the od of the cone altered
loaded in extremely compact w bins
suranjan
Re: Commentable Thoughts
Please READ what I wrote in the paper printed on my website: at EQUAL power (VA) an EI transformer performs better than a round one.
If you pull our old datasheets and compare to the new ones, you will realize that we increased, for the same power amplifier, the power (VA) of round transformers of 30% to reach what can be delivered by EI transformer for the same output.
What you perhaps do not know is that a double C transformer performs even better than an EI one.
Now about my cooling system, once again read back what I wrote, even if you are cooling with some hot air the transformer it is better than nothing.
amp_man_1 said:
Please READ what I wrote in the paper printed on my website: at EQUAL power (VA) an EI transformer performs better than a round one.
If you pull our old datasheets and compare to the new ones, you will realize that we increased, for the same power amplifier, the power (VA) of round transformers of 30% to reach what can be delivered by EI transformer for the same output.
What you perhaps do not know is that a double C transformer performs even better than an EI one.
Now about my cooling system, once again read back what I wrote, even if you are cooling with some hot air the transformer it is better than nothing.
hunter audio said:
You are making amplifiers in very small numbers at a very expensive price and you think, or your customers wishes a monster, and you/they think that more there is better it will be.
This is your problem.
I am not at all in this market and I am not interested in tuning (it is not because it is nice looking with extra large capacitors and huge heat sinks and enormous transformers with dramatically heavy box) that it will sound GOOD.
What you are describing meets what is manufactured in China for European companies marketing such boxes under the name of Vincent Audio and others!
Neither do I say that the opposite will make an amplifier sound GOOD.
Dyers think this way, it is not mine and I am not interested changing your mind as you won't change mine.
Obviously you are arguing on several facts and some of them are wrong, as I have little experience in manufacturing amplifiers since 25 years let me recall you that you are wrong (it is not because a capacitor will be expressed with millions of MF that it is a power full one, as the most importing number is the current it can handle).
By the way one must be mad willing to make high quality music with speakers reaching 1,6 ohm final load. You will get better results by using an amplifier for each speaker! You have quite no headroom between Zero and 1,6 while you have plenty with an 8-ohm load and you will have more dynamic.
But this is another debate.
Poor PSS Audio
I am Suranjan - My co: Hunter Audio
manufactures transducers - and i am a transducer design engineer
though unlike you who could only make amps i being one can make speakers , and did not go to Eminence to supply me
Eminence supplies to Klipsh - Adire Audio , Cadence has their own line up where is your indivduality ? in the wood - work ?
also they will always design for you what they will not market under their own brand name & reserve the best designs for their own - branded products , like the - Kappa
have made amps , i made proto types and by far they are not modelled on the chinese in fact i described the chassis for your tall claims of 15 % of cost of your amp goes in your chassis
even with such a heavy chassis it want 15 % of the cost
in diy people may not have made heavy chassis - printing ets to estimate your cost
thats why i described my chassis work - its inspired from the SUMO and the like - (and Sumo is not - chinese)
as for the torroids - when i usde to make amps i used torroids only
my friend AMP MAN whose makes amps very far away from my place (5 lengths of France from me)
makes amps with EI transformers
as for me running at 1.6 ohms - well my amps handles the load very well as unlike a few here (and we know who one name strikes a cord , start with - P __ )
i use torroids rated X 3 time s the wattage at 8 ohms
and the 1.6 ohms is because as i mentioned i run
4 bass bins extremely compact design (reverse loaded)
with JBL - 18 inches ( 2242 s ) that i have modified ,
have an extra magnet (dual mag) , thrown out the pole piece , (the JBL s coils had burnt out - there fore the coils couldnt be used)
new voice coil , put a new surround and dual spiders - And a new chassis to accomodate the extra spider
amongst other mods
the 1.6 ohms running is speacially devised for my running and use
i dont recomend it - or install it - it was done to show the limits that can be achieved out - side conventional - thats all
but if you would like to debate on it -
ill start with your schem s - for all its worth its over loaded with protection measures - clamping diodes all over the place - clipping detection and limitors
what remains to be seen is how fast does the extensive protection network works - and allows the amp to come back to normal operation -
no wonder you have used under - rated trannys , your amps never run upto clipping levels its clamped way before it - never runs into output over-current operation its bleeded far before it
another trick , up amp manufacturers sleeves
a s for t6he basic the schem its not different from the - chinese a single differential input , current sources here and there and a straight forward high power out put stage whats new
for such tall claims
have you opened a Crest Audio - Pro Series Amp with a similar rating as yours ?
should have gone to them for tech like you went to Eminence any way
suranajan
transducer design engineer
I am Suranjan - My co: Hunter Audio
manufactures transducers - and i am a transducer design engineer
though unlike you who could only make amps i being one can make speakers , and did not go to Eminence to supply me
Eminence supplies to Klipsh - Adire Audio , Cadence has their own line up where is your indivduality ? in the wood - work ?
also they will always design for you what they will not market under their own brand name & reserve the best designs for their own - branded products , like the - Kappa
have made amps , i made proto types and by far they are not modelled on the chinese in fact i described the chassis for your tall claims of 15 % of cost of your amp goes in your chassis
even with such a heavy chassis it want 15 % of the cost
in diy people may not have made heavy chassis - printing ets to estimate your cost
thats why i described my chassis work - its inspired from the SUMO and the like - (and Sumo is not - chinese)
as for the torroids - when i usde to make amps i used torroids only
my friend AMP MAN whose makes amps very far away from my place (5 lengths of France from me)
makes amps with EI transformers
as for me running at 1.6 ohms - well my amps handles the load very well as unlike a few here (and we know who one name strikes a cord , start with - P __ )
i use torroids rated X 3 time s the wattage at 8 ohms
and the 1.6 ohms is because as i mentioned i run
4 bass bins extremely compact design (reverse loaded)
with JBL - 18 inches ( 2242 s ) that i have modified ,
have an extra magnet (dual mag) , thrown out the pole piece , (the JBL s coils had burnt out - there fore the coils couldnt be used)
new voice coil , put a new surround and dual spiders - And a new chassis to accomodate the extra spider
amongst other mods
the 1.6 ohms running is speacially devised for my running and use
i dont recomend it - or install it - it was done to show the limits that can be achieved out - side conventional - thats all
but if you would like to debate on it -
ill start with your schem s - for all its worth its over loaded with protection measures - clamping diodes all over the place - clipping detection and limitors
what remains to be seen is how fast does the extensive protection network works - and allows the amp to come back to normal operation -
no wonder you have used under - rated trannys , your amps never run upto clipping levels its clamped way before it - never runs into output over-current operation its bleeded far before it
another trick , up amp manufacturers sleeves
a s for t6he basic the schem its not different from the - chinese a single differential input , current sources here and there and a straight forward high power out put stage whats new
for such tall claims
have you opened a Crest Audio - Pro Series Amp with a similar rating as yours ?
should have gone to them for tech like you went to Eminence any way
suranajan
transducer design engineer
while in the topic of amplifier power.....
I have a pair of anthony's N channel amps (the old design) but modified it to have 8 output stages per channel (after blowing it up.
) and I used only a 500VA 48-0-48VAC tranny since that's the biggest I could find in hongkong.
I have 20,000uF per rail per amp (so I have eight 10,000uF caps in the amp). any "guess" to how much power I could develop with that setup?
I have a pair of anthony's N channel amps (the old design) but modified it to have 8 output stages per channel (after blowing it up.
) and I used only a 500VA 48-0-48VAC tranny since that's the biggest I could find in hongkong. I have 20,000uF per rail per amp (so I have eight 10,000uF caps in the amp). any "guess" to how much power I could develop with that setup?
hi
quann
if well designed ,
a improvement will be
i have been over anthony s boards - you will need to place the power caps directly on the board of the output transistors
if uve added another matched mosfet too
u should be able to extract - 400 w RMS min with a 500 va power supply
if you increase the capacitance it will clip a bit less and push lows better - but ure wattage will not go up
that is 500 va suppling a mono amp block - and u getting 400 w rms
it wont work if you supply 2 amp blocks with 1 transformer
(mening you wont get 200 + 200 W from 2 amps powered by one tranny _ more loss factor)
the transformer need s to be - bifiliar winding , primary and secondary , and dual bridge config to get to dc
amp man has lots of experience with n - channel devices and he will be able to explain here better
my experience with n- channel has been with very large sound reinforcement - servicing - mackie and meyers products , they use these mosfets in their out put s too
suranjan
quann
if well designed ,
a improvement will be
i have been over anthony s boards - you will need to place the power caps directly on the board of the output transistors
if uve added another matched mosfet too
u should be able to extract - 400 w RMS min with a 500 va power supply
if you increase the capacitance it will clip a bit less and push lows better - but ure wattage will not go up
that is 500 va suppling a mono amp block - and u getting 400 w rms
it wont work if you supply 2 amp blocks with 1 transformer
(mening you wont get 200 + 200 W from 2 amps powered by one tranny _ more loss factor)
the transformer need s to be - bifiliar winding , primary and secondary , and dual bridge config to get to dc
amp man has lots of experience with n - channel devices and he will be able to explain here better
my experience with n- channel has been with very large sound reinforcement - servicing - mackie and meyers products , they use these mosfets in their out put s too
suranjan
Commentable Thoughts
I agree with hunter in this case.
From 500VA supply u cant get more than even 350WRMS clean sinewave without heating the tranny a lot.
Secondly mosfets smply require large power supply transformers because of there low conduction losses than bjts , when pumping out enormous infrasubsonic signal @ 10Hz.
regards
AmpMAn
hunter audio said:
I agree with hunter in this case.
From 500VA supply u cant get more than even 350WRMS clean sinewave without heating the tranny a lot.
Secondly mosfets smply require large power supply transformers because of there low conduction losses than bjts , when pumping out enormous infrasubsonic signal @ 10Hz.
regards
AmpMAn
I do some PA work (only just around the neighborhood...not the commercial ones, I'd need better amps for that! 
)
from home listening tests, my subs distort way before my amps do (rated 240 watts, 480 watts peak) so I guess I'm not losing so much power from a limited PSU.
the MOSFET's are all matched to within 10mV of each other as per anthony's method.
the main PSU caps are mounted right next to the amp boards. you can see all my DIY amps in my website including pics, descriptions etc.
I use rod's EAS (when setup at home) but use a 40Hz subsonic filter on outdoor gigs.
my equipments include a DIY 5 input mixer, a compressor/limiter, 31 band EQ, LR crossovers, and eight total channels all actively crossed over (total 1700 watts RMS)
)from home listening tests, my subs distort way before my amps do (rated 240 watts, 480 watts peak) so I guess I'm not losing so much power from a limited PSU.
the MOSFET's are all matched to within 10mV of each other as per anthony's method.
the main PSU caps are mounted right next to the amp boards. you can see all my DIY amps in my website including pics, descriptions etc.
I use rod's EAS (when setup at home) but use a 40Hz subsonic filter on outdoor gigs.
my equipments include a DIY 5 input mixer, a compressor/limiter, 31 band EQ, LR crossovers, and eight total channels all actively crossed over (total 1700 watts RMS)
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