KP11520 said:OK guys, for me to buy into this, I would have to fly to Amsterdam (please tell me you are in Amsterdam) and hear it being played live on the system as it happened.
To me. hearing something through my PC (compressed or whatever) that was downloaded from ? and is representing what system ? and what conditions ? and more than likely lost all the noticeable nuances, is kind of like, "hearsay" in a court of law. Not admissible.
I am not saying that you did not hear what you did not hear, all I'm saying is via the PC is not the way I am going to be convinced. I just need to go to Amsterdam.
Just like we all need to go to Dave's house too. Maybe you would hear what Dave has been talking about all this time and we wouldn't hear in Amsterdam what you have been talking about today. Then we would have to put our efforts together to figure out why! Until then, we will probably have 2 polarized camps!
So where do we go first, Dave's or Amsterdam? I say Amsterdam! Know any good places for tourists?
BTW, the brass instruments were more edgy in "A" and the strings came forward more in "B" and obviously the brass sounded more natural or subdued maybe allowing the strings to be heard.
Regards//Keith
I live in Gouda, that's an hour drive from Amsterdam.
Polarising is easy and that's not what we want. If you're able to distinguish A from B you should be able to recognize X as A or B. The test files don't change when you download them, they're made of bits and bytes.
I played the tracks on my Jordan JX92s TL's with my TA-2020 amp and with a borrowed Sony F690ES amp. I also played them on my noisy notebook and a pair of Panasonic in-ear headphones. I thought I heared differences but sofar I have not been able to get a reliable ABX score.
regards,
ravon
BTW, what is it you guys from the new world have with Amsterdam?
ravon said:
They like to visit and do some "ABX" testing of a different kind.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Well, with Jordan drivers, if you use BSC, the inductor is enough to mask part of the differences unless you use foil inductors. Additionally, I would recommend additional tweaking to improve the CSD above 10KHz. Otherwise the JX92S should be revealing enough to here the difference.ravon said:
I know that power supplies have significant effect on T/D amps, so it's hard to tell what one can expect unless the exact design is understood.
The more the sound source couples closely with the ear canal, the more it will strengthen canal resonances that can mask differences. It's like having your head/ear inside a speaker enclosure. I agree we probably can't hear differences this way.
Hi Guys,
Where there's smoke there's fire!
I have never been to Europe but I have been to Physical Therapy. Many of the Physical Therapists I have worked with all said the same thing, If you ever get a chance to go to Europe... SEE AMSTERDAM! They all seem to study there.
Now, I am one of those guys that lives by the by the premise, Reality is for people who can't handle drugs! To each his own!
But even though I am very happily married and have no desire to wander, I think seeing the Red Light District would be a hoot! Storefronts with everything on display, etc!
Plus seeing those Damn Dams and the melting pot that Amsterdam is.
Maybe you guys don't realize what you have. A lot like me, who lives 25 miles from Manhattan and my attitude about Manhattan..... So what? Especially after commuting to and from for over 10 years for work and going out there since my early 20s. I have never been to the Statue of Liberty!
Amsterdam is more interesting to me!
I listened to the A/B test with my onboard soundcard "Soundblaster Live" with my Klipsh ProMedia 2.1s. This can't represent things like soundstage, etc. like a real system with different Coupling Caps! But I did hear the the difference in the brassyness of the horns and the strings in the background!
Regards//Keith
Where there's smoke there's fire!
I have never been to Europe but I have been to Physical Therapy. Many of the Physical Therapists I have worked with all said the same thing, If you ever get a chance to go to Europe... SEE AMSTERDAM! They all seem to study there.
Now, I am one of those guys that lives by the by the premise, Reality is for people who can't handle drugs! To each his own!
But even though I am very happily married and have no desire to wander, I think seeing the Red Light District would be a hoot! Storefronts with everything on display, etc!
Plus seeing those Damn Dams and the melting pot that Amsterdam is.
Maybe you guys don't realize what you have. A lot like me, who lives 25 miles from Manhattan and my attitude about Manhattan..... So what? Especially after commuting to and from for over 10 years for work and going out there since my early 20s. I have never been to the Statue of Liberty!
Amsterdam is more interesting to me!
I listened to the A/B test with my onboard soundcard "Soundblaster Live" with my Klipsh ProMedia 2.1s. This can't represent things like soundstage, etc. like a real system with different Coupling Caps! But I did hear the the difference in the brassyness of the horns and the strings in the background!
Regards//Keith
I hope that we can steer this thread back on topic.
The topic is the differences in sound between different input caps in a T-Amp.
The subject is not "Do the differences really exist?"
As legitimate and important as that question is, and it has argued since the 1970's at least, it is NOT the question here.
I do not take Dave's findings as gospel, but as one man's impressions after some very thorough testing. For that I am very grateful to Dave, he's done sterling work. Many of his results agree with what I have heard, some do not. For me his results are a great guide.
The question of whether he is really hearing these differences is a subject for another thread.
I do hear differences, often subtle, between caps. Between many, it's a toss up. But I also hear differences in power supplies and amplifiers. There are many who would tell me that all amps sound alike - and that just makes me laugh, because it 's soooo far from my experience.
So I would hope, and politely ask that we not get into an ABX testing debate here. That argument that all the differences may be imagined is duly noted. If you don't believe there are difference, I respect that. But it's NOT the subject here.
The topic is the differences in sound between different input caps in a T-Amp.
The subject is not "Do the differences really exist?"
As legitimate and important as that question is, and it has argued since the 1970's at least, it is NOT the question here.
I do not take Dave's findings as gospel, but as one man's impressions after some very thorough testing. For that I am very grateful to Dave, he's done sterling work. Many of his results agree with what I have heard, some do not. For me his results are a great guide.
The question of whether he is really hearing these differences is a subject for another thread.
I do hear differences, often subtle, between caps. Between many, it's a toss up. But I also hear differences in power supplies and amplifiers. There are many who would tell me that all amps sound alike - and that just makes me laugh, because it 's soooo far from my experience.
So I would hope, and politely ask that we not get into an ABX testing debate here. That argument that all the differences may be imagined is duly noted. If you don't believe there are difference, I respect that. But it's NOT the subject here.
You can ask yourself the question why that is the case.panomaniac said:
It should always be the first question to be asked and to be answered. I have seen a lot of situations where differences are heard between identical signals. In other words, claims based on hearing alone is not good enough.
But if you guys want to keep things between-the-ears instead of realistic, I will shut my mouth.
Regards,
Jacco
I'd be glad to listen to more tracks if they are available to see if my preference is consistent. This should be as good as any ABX testing. I won't feel bad in any way if my selections are not consistent. At least we know.dekkersj said:
I'd also be interested in hearing what other peoples preferences are with the previous posted tracks.
You can redo your test with the same samples. The only thing you have to guarantee is that you don't know which one is playing. It should be blind so to speak. There is free software which can do that for you and it will keep track of your score. Very convenient.soongsc said:
But may be this can be done in a different thread.
Regards,
Jacco
Cap orientation.
Hi,
Before you make any firm judgements on the effects of reversing the orientation of film caps, you might like to know the following.
Unless they are some of the very few which have been manufactured with this orientation in mind, many (most?) such caps are not marked consistently. They are usually taken from a hopper and marked up after construction without any attention being paid to their orientation, so the direction of any wording on them is not a reliable indication of their 'constructional' direction.
If you look at the earlier thread "BlackGate 'Super E' caps" and especially posts #59 & #69, this may be of some help here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7593&highlight=
Regards,
Hi,
Before you make any firm judgements on the effects of reversing the orientation of film caps, you might like to know the following.
Unless they are some of the very few which have been manufactured with this orientation in mind, many (most?) such caps are not marked consistently. They are usually taken from a hopper and marked up after construction without any attention being paid to their orientation, so the direction of any wording on them is not a reliable indication of their 'constructional' direction.
If you look at the earlier thread "BlackGate 'Super E' caps" and especially posts #59 & #69, this may be of some help here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7593&highlight=
Regards,
Hi Bob,
YIKES!
Thanks for the education! In fact, the Obbligato caps tested here are from Brian Cherry too!
Your info would validate Dweekie's experience with some of the caps he is auditioning!
Have you tried Jonathan's method? Is it as effective as yours? Do you hear a difference when you reverse the caps in the signal path? If this is the case, the ramifications are huge for all the people who modded their equipment and didn't know that the lettering doesn't usually matter or didn't pay attention!
Is there a range from most noticeable to least noticeable impact on sound based on Cap type and polarity that you could list in order based on your experience?
Thanks again!
Regards//Keith
YIKES!
Thanks for the education! In fact, the Obbligato caps tested here are from Brian Cherry too!
Your info would validate Dweekie's experience with some of the caps he is auditioning!
Have you tried Jonathan's method? Is it as effective as yours? Do you hear a difference when you reverse the caps in the signal path? If this is the case, the ramifications are huge for all the people who modded their equipment and didn't know that the lettering doesn't usually matter or didn't pay attention!
Is there a range from most noticeable to least noticeable impact on sound based on Cap type and polarity that you could list in order based on your experience?
Thanks again!
Regards//Keith
Hi Keith,
I am not familiar with the Obbligato caps you mention, but if they are made as 'specialist' audio caps, they should ideally be marked up consistently. Why not ask the makers?
The excellent Teflon V-Caps, and polypropylene Auricaps (for example) are both made in the desired manner and the manufacturers will tell you which way 'sounds' best, in their experience. All other than 'specialist' audio caps you simply have to take pot-luck with, as their makers don't care which way around they are marked up for general electronics use, so they should be measured to be sure.
It was so long ago, I don't recall whether or not I tried Jonathan's method at that time, but as my set-up is so easy, quick and completely 'universal', I still do things the same way.
However, anything Jonathan says can be relied upon as 'Gospel', and his rule-of-thumb where orientation goes is very reliable, too.
In 99 out of 100 cases I have tried, placing the outer foil at the ground side in shunt positions, and at the 'output' in series locations, sounds better than the opposite way around. There are good theoretical reasons for this as the outer foil acts as a better shield against unwanted RFI pickup etc., when this is at the ground or lower ground-potential side in the circuits concerned.
Every cap I have listened to (or through), and this must total almost thousands over some 40 yrs, does exibit quite noticeable differences, but one needs a reasonably high resolution system to readily hear these changes.
Unfortunately, it is not possible to generalise over which capacitor is the most noticeable (or otherwise) in my experience, as the effects vary somewhat in accordance with how and where they are used in any circuit. Also, I have no wish to engage in any arguments with those who have different opinions, as it was the unpleasant reaction to what I posted before (over similar matters) which finally discouraged me from posting on this Forum for several years.
I hope that this helps.
Regards,
I am not familiar with the Obbligato caps you mention, but if they are made as 'specialist' audio caps, they should ideally be marked up consistently. Why not ask the makers?
The excellent Teflon V-Caps, and polypropylene Auricaps (for example) are both made in the desired manner and the manufacturers will tell you which way 'sounds' best, in their experience. All other than 'specialist' audio caps you simply have to take pot-luck with, as their makers don't care which way around they are marked up for general electronics use, so they should be measured to be sure.
It was so long ago, I don't recall whether or not I tried Jonathan's method at that time, but as my set-up is so easy, quick and completely 'universal', I still do things the same way.
However, anything Jonathan says can be relied upon as 'Gospel', and his rule-of-thumb where orientation goes is very reliable, too.
In 99 out of 100 cases I have tried, placing the outer foil at the ground side in shunt positions, and at the 'output' in series locations, sounds better than the opposite way around. There are good theoretical reasons for this as the outer foil acts as a better shield against unwanted RFI pickup etc., when this is at the ground or lower ground-potential side in the circuits concerned.
Every cap I have listened to (or through), and this must total almost thousands over some 40 yrs, does exibit quite noticeable differences, but one needs a reasonably high resolution system to readily hear these changes.
Unfortunately, it is not possible to generalise over which capacitor is the most noticeable (or otherwise) in my experience, as the effects vary somewhat in accordance with how and where they are used in any circuit. Also, I have no wish to engage in any arguments with those who have different opinions, as it was the unpleasant reaction to what I posted before (over similar matters) which finally discouraged me from posting on this Forum for several years.
I hope that this helps.
Regards,
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