"Balm in Gilead", She asked 100 fans to donate $100 each to pull off the project.
I think it is a fundamental problem that people go to extreme lengths to try and say there is something wrong with our current understanding. Audio reproduction, unless you're trying to push against certain limits (low noise, huge amounts of power etc), isn't a particularly demanding thing. We have sonar, seismographs, radio telescopes, ultrasound etc that are far more demanding and yet are designed and work, perfectly well, in line with what science describes. We have electron tunnelling microscopes that can rearrange the state/bond angle on single pairs of atoms in crystalline structures, we can detect the cosmic background radiation from the big bang and have systems that are capable of determining the atmospheric composition of planets in orbit around stars light years away from our own.
All of these things are incredible feats of science and engineering and push what we know to the limits. They are also only possible because of our current understanding.
If there were some mystical hidden property within capacitors (or any electrical component for that matter) don't you think that those applications would have revealed them and then want to exploit them as real progress?
I would rather say that too often the golden ear crowd get stuck into a rut of op-amp rolling, of trying out different capacitors, different resistors, different wires, different anything for that matter, as a way of satisfying some urge. Rather than simply being happy with what they've got and investing their time and energy into something that is actually productive. Like I don't know, actually picking up an engineering book and reading it whilst enjoying their hifi system.
I mean I get the whole - need to try and make it better - thing. And if you aren't an engineering sort, the only thing you can really do is try different components/wires/freezing a CD over night before listening to it. And of course if you're going to go that route you are going to want things to sound different, so what with us being human, things will sound different.
You forget here though that we as humans actually like having choices, like having marketing, like having subjective reviews. We like comparing one thing with another, we like to feel that we are making the correct decision when buying things. That we in some way, via research, have bought the correct thing for us.
There is also the 'race' to the bottom in todays tech world. Quality often costs quite a bit, but prices are coming down. So mass produced, low cost stuff, probably wont satisfy 'superior in its design' for a very long time.
Benchmark DAC2 HGC D/A processor/headphone amplifier | Stereophile.com
For example, really does represent about the best one can do with regards to D/A conversion. You wont see that kind of performance in a bargain basement product, but it is also very respectfully priced considering it's capabilities.
I'll look for it.
BTW Finally found the time to put your 815's to good use.
I'm putting together a very wideband power amp, with very low distortion up to 2x audio bandwidth, to drive my super tweeters.
Per channel 6 x 815 in bridge.
All in the service of finding out whether these SACDs really sound better
Jan
Attachments
I'll look for it.
BTW Finally found the time to put your 815's to good use.
I'm putting together a very wideband power amp, with very low distortion up to 2x audio bandwidth, to drive my super tweeters.
Per channel 6 x 815 in bridge.
All in the service of finding out whether these SACDs really sound better
Jan
Trim those screws, must keep up appearances you know.
5TH,
I have not been insulting in any of my post. Please do the same. I have asked questions in a way i thought would follow logic and reason. I know that to the engineering typeI may be an annoyance, but having a general lack of funds and not being to buy any cap or wire, I have to make the most informed decisions i can. That was the point of most of my post. While it is widely accepted among many smart people here that different cap brands should not sound different if they measure the same, there is no more eveidence to back this up than there is to deny it. I understand the general theory about how they should perform euqally if they measure equally, but is this the whole story and has it been tested? While it may seem trivial, I leave you with this post in the thread that speakerdoctor posted.
Effect of Film dielectric type on capacitor ESR
I have not been insulting in any of my post. Please do the same. I have asked questions in a way i thought would follow logic and reason. I know that to the engineering typeI may be an annoyance, but having a general lack of funds and not being to buy any cap or wire, I have to make the most informed decisions i can. That was the point of most of my post. While it is widely accepted among many smart people here that different cap brands should not sound different if they measure the same, there is no more eveidence to back this up than there is to deny it. I understand the general theory about how they should perform euqally if they measure equally, but is this the whole story and has it been tested? While it may seem trivial, I leave you with this post in the thread that speakerdoctor posted.
Effect of Film dielectric type on capacitor ESR
Trim those screws, must keep up appearances you know.
The screw ends modify the local space-time to increase the THD entropy. Everything is important, you know!
Jan
Well this renewed thread is quite humorous. Virtually all professional loudspeaker designers know about ESR. To rough in a crossover they may use a component switch box, but for the final tweak it must be the actual production parts.
Now when using electrolytic capacitors most are aware that they age, have higher ESR, they also are well damped to avoid delta C due to vibration.
Now metalized film capacitors often have very low delta C, but they can also fail due to over-current burning off the metalization. Not so common on tweeters much more common on woofer bypass use. I don't have any around at the moment but unwinding a failed unit is quite informative. You can see how the burn line extends the entire length of the windings.
Now foil and film capacitors can be the best, if tightly wrapped or stacked. Many of them are not so the vibration induced delta C show up as mid-high distortion.
Now when looking at a capacitor for a design the issues are:
Value, Tolerance, Current capacity, ESR, Delta C and there actually are distortion differences between dielectrics.
However as 2nd harmonic distortion is not significant when it is 30 db or more down, distortion is often not an issue as the drivers will have bandwidth limits. (Note that higher order distortions may be perceived in music reproduction at levels far below that.)
So when you have need to change a crossover capacitor to improve quality there are things you can improve and others that if you unwittingly change will screw things up.
Now to me the interesting issue is how does voltage rating affect Delta C.
Now for the uneducated (and SY ) the definition of capacitance is C=q/V As current is dq/dT we take the first derivative of Capacitance to get C*dv/dt + V*dC/dt = i = dq/dt. For most purposes the assumption is that dC is so close to zero you can ignore it. Not the case inside a loudspeaker enclosure!
ES
Now when using electrolytic capacitors most are aware that they age, have higher ESR, they also are well damped to avoid delta C due to vibration.
Now metalized film capacitors often have very low delta C, but they can also fail due to over-current burning off the metalization. Not so common on tweeters much more common on woofer bypass use. I don't have any around at the moment but unwinding a failed unit is quite informative. You can see how the burn line extends the entire length of the windings.
Now foil and film capacitors can be the best, if tightly wrapped or stacked. Many of them are not so the vibration induced delta C show up as mid-high distortion.
Now when looking at a capacitor for a design the issues are:
Value, Tolerance, Current capacity, ESR, Delta C and there actually are distortion differences between dielectrics.
However as 2nd harmonic distortion is not significant when it is 30 db or more down, distortion is often not an issue as the drivers will have bandwidth limits. (Note that higher order distortions may be perceived in music reproduction at levels far below that.)
So when you have need to change a crossover capacitor to improve quality there are things you can improve and others that if you unwittingly change will screw things up.
Now to me the interesting issue is how does voltage rating affect Delta C.
Now for the uneducated (and SY
) the definition of capacitance is C=q/V As current is dq/dT we take the first derivative of Capacitance to get C*dv/dt + V*dC/dt = i = dq/dt. For most purposes the assumption is that dC is so close to zero you can ignore it. Not the case inside a loudspeaker enclosure!ES
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I'll look for it.
BTW Finally found the time to put your 815's to good use.
I'm putting together a very wideband power amp, with very low distortion up to 2x audio bandwidth, to drive my super tweeters.
Per channel 6 x 815 in bridge.
All in the service of finding out whether these SACDs really sound better
Jan
Is that a kit ..?
You have engineers with ears and engineers without , pick your fights ..
Clio has RCL meter which sweeps frequencies, stops at certain and then
displays single value.
The trouble with these kind of threads is that whatever an engineer says, a non engineer almost always, as some sort of non sequitur, turns around and says - well you must be deaf then. There is nothing you can do to argue against this and you shouldn't have to because it's a ridiculous statement to make in the first place. The statement itself being as valid as when someone says I can hear the difference between a cryo treated CD and a non cryo treated. Note that this isn't meant as a personal attack, it's in general where some people really do and claim stupid things.
Neither have I, if you took what I said to be insulting then I apologise, but your comments have come across as similar too.
Neither have I, which is why going the engineering route makes the most sense. I too would like to be able to throw stupid money at ridiculous parts, but even if I had limitless funds I would still find it hard to justify spending stupid money on things like boutique caps.
There is plenty of evidence to back this up, it's what I was getting at in the previous post. If there was something genuinely incorrect in our understanding about the way basic electrical components work (that would lead to immeasurable things making one cap sound different than another) then we would not be able to do the wonderful things with technology that we can.
The only evidence to support the other side of the argument is anecdotal subjective stuff.
So it's like saying would you rather side with science and all its wonders, or side with some peoples subjective opinions? This does of course mean that you have to man up and be able to admit that the differences that you think you are hearing are probably just that, imaginary. I got over that years ago because I know I am only human.
At the same time however, knowing that I am only human helps to explain why I do feel happier about using certain parts simply because of the way they look, the way the writing is written on the packages or how other people say they sound. Yes I do like to read glowing subjective hyperbole because it is romantic in nature, but only if it happens to correlate to excellent measured performance. I am uninterested in how well someone says something sounds, if it happens to measure like crap.
Neither have I, if you took what I said to be insulting then I apologise, but your comments have come across as similar too.
Neither have I, which is why going the engineering route makes the most sense. I too would like to be able to throw stupid money at ridiculous parts, but even if I had limitless funds I would still find it hard to justify spending stupid money on things like boutique caps.
There is plenty of evidence to back this up, it's what I was getting at in the previous post. If there was something genuinely incorrect in our understanding about the way basic electrical components work (that would lead to immeasurable things making one cap sound different than another) then we would not be able to do the wonderful things with technology that we can.
The only evidence to support the other side of the argument is anecdotal subjective stuff.
So it's like saying would you rather side with science and all its wonders, or side with some peoples subjective opinions? This does of course mean that you have to man up and be able to admit that the differences that you think you are hearing are probably just that, imaginary. I got over that years ago because I know I am only human.
At the same time however, knowing that I am only human helps to explain why I do feel happier about using certain parts simply because of the way they look, the way the writing is written on the packages or how other people say they sound. Yes I do like to read glowing subjective hyperbole because it is romantic in nature, but only if it happens to correlate to excellent measured performance. I am uninterested in how well someone says something sounds, if it happens to measure like crap.
Ok so you are not able to look at cap value over the full specified range like LMS ..?
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