To WAV or not to WAV?

sandyK · 2009-05-06 5:18 am

Paul
I will upload those couple again , starting in an hour or so.
It will take a while,as they usually only upload at around 30kbs. max. They are both complete tracks. Even if you can't hear the same differences that I hear, they aren't too bad to listen to.
SandyK

brsanko · 2009-05-06 5:33 am

Ok where did that post go?

bubbamc119 · 2009-05-06 5:49 am

No I would not use WAV because, as mentioned, there is no standardized tagging format.

If you have an iPod, use ALAC. If you don't, use FLAC. Don't bother with WMA lossless.

sandyK · 2009-05-06 6:26 am

Paul
The new links are :

version 1 : http://delivery.vipeers.com/file_sharing?message_hash=N92FmcvUs9s3cuucNkIZEQ==&locale=en

version 2 : http://delivery.vipeers.com/file_sharing?message_hash=6RheSXXvbN7R_ecfONz9yg==&locale=en

SandyK

gainphile · 2009-05-06 6:29 am

So are the file version1 is different from version 2 (check using file comparator)?

If they are the same then surely they would sound the same. Of course the ears can fool us too.

If they are not the same, than that would be very strange. What about programs etc. kept on these discs? They would not work!

sandyK · 2009-05-06 6:35 am

The MD5 checksums are :
474df609920783f713acf668a78a69a5 *Track04.wav
474df609920783f713acf668a78a69a5 *Track04a.wav

SandyK
P.S.
Sony obviously means us to hear the differences so they can sell the new Blu-spec format discs (CD Japan etc.)
As you can see, the check sums are identical with MD5 (and other check sums.) yet they sound audibly better with the BR version when played by a typical affordable CD player, which is Sony's intention.
I am saying that I can still hear some of these audible differences after copying to the HDD using EAC.

The attached was posted by a Rock Grotto member:
Re: Burning CD-R with a BluRay Burner
« Reply #152 on Apr 4, 2009, 4:54am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have listened to Marvin Gaye's Sexual Healing and carried out a DBT for Alex through my amp. Not knowing which version was which, it turns out that i listened to the conventionaly burnt cd version (from the hard drive) first. The Blu Ray version was far superior to the conventional cd version. Much wider soundstage, far more precise sense of instrument positioning, trebles had more zing and crispness and the bass was much more controlled.

I wouldn't of thought the 2 versions would be that different, but. to my surprise, the Blu Ray cd version was far superior, by a long chalk to.

gainphile · 2009-05-06 7:01 am

I'll have a download and listen before my next comment.

But how how can two same files, played on the same system sound different?

The only possibilities are:
- The files are not the same, or
- The testing instrument (ears in this case) is not precise.

EC8010 · 2009-05-06 7:06 am

Another possibility is that although the data is the same, one has more jitter in it, causing the player's servos to work harder to recover it.

sandyK · 2009-05-06 7:07 am

gainphile
Unless you are using SPDIF OUT into a good DAC, you are more than likely wasting the time of both of us.
I would add that I tried using Foobar without any plugins, and the sound differences were quite hard to pick. After again using Creative Media Source Player, I had no difficulty.
SandyK

sandyK · 2009-05-06 7:16 am

EC8010 said:
Another possibility is that although the data is the same, one has more jitter in it, causing the player's servos to work harder to recover it.

EC8010
That is exactly what I suspect, and is the same as stated by a Sony engineer. This servo action would also cause modulation of other circuits due to PSU coupling.
I would also mention that I went to considerable time and expense to send a high quality CD comparison copy burned by my LG BluRay writer, to one of your fellow moderators to pass around for testing. After using only ANALOGUE OUT from his PC, he decided to become Judge, Jury and Executioner.
I had requested that the disc be passed on to Planet10, as he had expressed interest. Unfortunately, Dave had Influenza at the time.
AFAIK, the comparison CD was not passed on.
Bear in mind that these differences are quite subtle, and high resolution gear is needed to fully appreciate the improvement with the Blu-spec version.

SandyK

Netlist · 2009-05-06 7:27 am

sandyK said:
I had requested that the disc be passed on to Planet10, as he had expressed interest. Unfortunately, Dave had Influenza at the time.
AFAIK, the comparison CD was not passed on.

It was. Why do you think it wasn't. Remember I too can fly.

phofman · 2009-05-06 7:45 am

The two posted wav files are identical. Bit by bit. The only difference is their name.

There is no jitter stored in a wav format. The only timing information is the sampling rate stored in the wav header.

The two identical files sound identical and claiming that they sound different in a consistent manner is voodoo. Of course they can sound different since conditions change all the time (state of power supply, atmospheric pressure, ambient noise, etc.) but not in a consistent manner.

Westerp · 2009-05-06 7:55 am

brsanko said:
Even so converting files to FLAC takes alot of time

This biased opinion just shows me you have not done your research
and you have not ripped and converted any cd to flac.

Encoding to flac is done in the same time the data is read from the cd
and the data extraction speed is the limiting factor not the encoding.

I can't see why listening to two tracks, which are the same as you say,
on anything else than the intended blu-ray vs cd setup would sound
different but then again some people hear a difference between caps
while some others don't.

p.s. Do you really trust MD5 ?

gainphile · 2009-05-06 7:59 am

EC8010 said:
Another possibility is that although the data is the same, one has more jitter in it, causing the player's servos to work harder to recover it.

The system is the same (dac, player, computer etc). Are you saying the jitter is encoded in the file?

sandyK said:
gainphile
Unless you are using SPDIF OUT into a good DAC, you are more than likely wasting the time of both of us.
I would add that I tried using Foobar without any plugins, and the sound differences were quite hard to pick. After again using Creative Media Source Player, I had no difficulty.
SandyK

We'll see. I have plenty of time to waste he..he.. I have heard LPs, EMU dac, ebay dac, etc. on many exotic amps and speakers, and there is nothing wrong with soundblaster 2496 and gainclones.

for this test, the equipment will be live 2496 dac, dared mp5 dac, headphones, a fullrange speaker, a headset, my OBs, and perhaps my pluto clone if I have the energy to install it

Of course if I can't hear any difference then my system is not high-resolution enough :smash:

planet10 · 2009-05-06 8:02 am

sandyK said:
I had requested that the disc be passed on to Planet10, as he had expressed interest. Unfortunately, Dave had Influenza at the time.

I have the disk now (in today's mail). Probably won't get a chance to listen until Thursday.

dave

sandyK · 2009-05-06 8:19 am

gainphile said:
The system is the same (dac, player, computer etc). Are you saying the jitter is encoded in the file?

We'll see. I have plenty of time to waste he..he.. I have heard LPs, EMU dac, ebay dac, etc. on many exotic amps and speakers, and there is nothing wrong with soundblaster 2496 and gainclones.

for this test, the equipment will be live 2496 dac, dared mp5 dac, headphones, a fullrange speaker, a headset, my OBs, and perhaps my pluto clone if I have the energy to install it

Of course if I can't hear any difference then my system is not high-resolution enough

gainclone
Are you also able to try with Creative Media Source Player ?
SandyK

spzzzzkt · 2009-05-06 8:35 am

I've had a listen and to be honest I can't hear any difference between the two files...

I tried three means of playback -

iTunes, Quicktime Player and Wave Editor ( http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/waveeditor/ )

Playback chain was Mac Powerbook G4 -> Echo Audiofire 2 -> Spdif > Spencer's D1V3 (modified with Tent Labs VCXO and PICMicro based PLL) -> diy Aleph P1.7 pre-amp -> 2 x Aleph 30 clone monoblocks -> Trevor Lees Audio TLA-100 speakers (peerless and vifa drivers in a D'Appolito arrangement).

Westerp · 2009-05-06 8:42 am

spzzzzkt said:
I can't hear any difference between the two files...

Then plainly you are not an audiophile

Or your ears suck

sandyK · 2009-05-06 8:56 am

spzzzzkt said:
I've had a listen and to be honest I can't hear any difference between the two files...

I tried three means of playback -

iTunes, Quicktime Player and Wave Editor ( http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/waveeditor/ )

Playback chain was Mac Powerbook G4 -> Echo Audiofire 2 -> Spdif > Spencer's D1V3 (modified with Tent Labs VCXO and PICMicro based PLL) -> diy Aleph P1.7 pre-amp -> 2 x Aleph 30 clone monoblocks -> Trevor Lees Audio TLA-100 speakers (peerless and vifa drivers in a D'Appolito arrangement).

spzzzkt

Thanks for trying.

SandyK

spzzzzkt · 2009-05-06 9:01 am

I guess if I listen to stuff like this I can't possibly call myself an audiophile.... :shhh:

To WAV or not to WAV?

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