Panicos K said:Hi Willleung,yes exclusivity is not a good thing,but it has its antidote"don't buy it"till they are forced to lower the priceI was with the impression that Shuguang were still making tubes,although there is a new name -Sino-which I think are the same people?
Hi Panicos, Shuguang is still making tubes, but Nanjiang and Beijaing Tube Factories ain't anymore. Beijiang operate at the fullest around the 1970s, during the time of cultural revoluation (think massive political riots, like germany in the 20s), so I guess their qualities are purpose worst of the lot. What makes it a bummer is that, chinese copies of 6H6 (6N6 in chinese marking, close to E182CC) and 4P1L (4P1S Direct Heat Pentode) came from BJ tube factory in the early 1970s, honestly i haven't heard any of it, but were interested in starting projects with them.
Then we have some rebrand from Shuguang like Value Art in the west, and this:
http://www.diybuy.net/attachments/month_0906/20090602_6ae1825d9ea444ef134ar133wS0AW9sI.jpg
which I assure they are standard tubes, but with better QC, like what Brain had done with TJ Fullmusic?
Shuguang had done some of it for the local market too (not treasure box tubes), like this:
http://www.diybuy.net/attachments/forumid_114/20080318_c113f329d7a15e1eaaccXlKmhINC5kMV.jpg
mlgill said:
I finer example of an empty claim of sonically superior qualities, substantiated by absolutely zero objective criteria, I have never seen nor heard.
I guess that there are those that will indeed respond to something like this with, "Ooo..., black bottles. They must be worth every extra penny", but I am still amazed that a vendor can stand up in a room full of people, most of whom arguably know better, and smile while making such a claim.
Hope some of you experts and pros still reading this thread while it's alive will directly compare the OP's first post and some of the Chinese integrated amps mentioned in this thread to this:http://www.diyhifisupply.com/?q=node/133. The cost end cost difference is a lot different to the consumer. About $525 vrs the $800+ including shipping of the Chinese invasion amps. (Agreed the Ella is not integrated, just used it as the example).
My apologies. We are migrating the Ella to the Ergo-Ella chassis and I took down the Levels 1 - 3 as the amp is sold out but forgot to remove the assembling option. The $275USD is the cost for doing the assembling of a custom-configured Ella. It doesn't include any parts. The work is done by a very meticulous craftsman with 40+ years experience here in Hong Kong.
I go to factories in China several times a month and get to talk to the factory owners. After the Chinese New Year this year about 20 million workers didn't come back in Canton alone. Thousands of factories turned out the lights or just closed down. So it is a very unstable period in manufacturing now and there is a bit of a shake out going on. The fast buck operators always come and go, but it's sad to see some legitimate established factories gasping for life. We're losing some. Last August manufacturing material prices peaked and many factories bought huge stocks at the peak as a hedge against even more increases (just like the airlines bought fuel futures at the peak and continue to pay peak prices long after the crash). When prices fell, customers demanded pricing based on new costs but manufacturers were drawing from inventory purchased at the peak. On the other hand there is still a lot of inventory floating around that was bought when prices were low. It all makes for an unpredictable market.
I've asked some of the factory owners about the cheap Chinese amps that appear on Ebay. how do they do it? They explain it this way: if a factory can't get a distributor for its products ) or the order is cancelled) it will sell them out on Ebay. Some are overruns from inventory when promised orders didn't materialize. Some are new production to finish material inventory bought low. I guess that's why they sometimes resemble products once sold under a brand name.
Looking at the example in the OP: if I order a production run of 50 sets (typical) of these, and pay for the tooling for the casework, the cost is going to be almost what that amp sells for on Ebay.
But there are some unseen variables: the transformers are about 50% of the cost and the price difference between junk core and imported Japanese or Korean core is about 4x. Of course even good cores can underachieve when scatter wound but not likely anyone using junk cores will take the time and hire the skill needed to produce perfect lay windings. Junk cores still give sound, not screechy, horrible sound, but uninvolving and flat from what I've heard.
Then there are the parts used. The China market is flooded with fakes and repackaged parts. The difference between real Rubycon or Nichicon etc and the ones with just the labels is about 5 to 1 in bulk. Fake and real both make sound. Film Caps make with local films are junk and sound tizzy.
The answer is not in the shipping charged. The amp in the pictures should be a minimum of 20kg if the power transformer is correctly sized. Our Ella (included 2 chokes) was 27kg. Shipping by air to US or Europe is about 10-11USD/kg.
Also I've noticed Ebay is flooded with listings where the product is claimed to be in Hong Kong but in fact is not - it's in China. So that's one reason why many don't allow local pickup, because it's not local. I'd be very wary of any product that isn't where it's claimed to be. There is a whole different set of dynamics for products sold from China and products sold from Hong Kong. The sellers know it and that's why they try to disguise the products whereabouts.
So I guess it just depends what you are shopping for.
Interesting thread.
Our products are mfg in Taiwan. Since I am the US rep my margins are quite small and we build to order keeping our cost to a minimum. Also I am here in the US to facilitate warranty and service issues. We provide high quality craftmanship and take pride in our talents and interest to bring hi end tube audio to the marketplace. Parts are chosen for best sound quality be it Nichicon, Mundorf, James OPT, Black Gate...etc. From time to time I list my demos for sale directly to the end user. . I am the face of the company, so I am interested in great build out and superior sound tube gear at the most reasonable price. I want value.
This company was founded by 12 DIY enthusiast in Taiwan. Kudos to dIY builders .... sharing their love of audio . ART FORM audio.
This company was founded by 12 DIY enthusiast in Taiwan. Kudos to dIY builders .... sharing their love of audio . ART FORM audio.
Cost is the primary reason I never tried to DIY a serious transistor amplifier, at least after my teenage years. Also, just due to sheer laziness, if I could meet my objectives by buying a commercial tube product and modifying that, I would do so, and have done so on occasion. For me, a good part of the DIY fun is implementing my own ideas in a way that is unique and unavailable on the market at any price, as long as the ideas work decently well.
I like the look of some of the Chinese amps, but I want to build my own. I just wish there was a place in the US to get decent looking chassis without having to break the bank or ship from Hong Kong. Everything else i have no problem finding, but trying to get an attractive chassis is tough.
And this was what started my post. I want more case work choices here in the US. I want my stuff to look as good as the Sino stuff! I gues this is where having your own factory comes in handy. I'd love to find something with a finely brushed front panel, and walnut sides like the 70's japan stuff! I think I have have come up with something using a hammond chassis, Front Panel Express, and Ebay walnut lumber!
Use STABILIZED WOOD Mack- makes anything look
3 times as good as stock walnut, and I'm a old school
heavy grain wood lover... You should see (and do some
research) on some of the finished stabilized wood used
in a myriad of smaller projects for anything. It's just
unbelievable and durable. You also can get as exotic as you want.
Seems the stuff is just made for amp chassis'.
http://www.stabilizedwood.com/
3 times as good as stock walnut, and I'm a old school
heavy grain wood lover... You should see (and do some
research) on some of the finished stabilized wood used
in a myriad of smaller projects for anything. It's just
unbelievable and durable. You also can get as exotic as you want.
Seems the stuff is just made for amp chassis'.
http://www.stabilizedwood.com/
Dude, can you stop spamming your wood?
Here is a link to one of many recipes that better your craps.
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/eamaple.htm
Here is a link to one of many recipes that better your craps.
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/eamaple.htm
Hi, I'd like to request SY or our fellow Canadian friends here to confirm that this amp is being assembled in Edmonton...
TIA
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
TIA
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