BOGUSIUM INDEED
The argument from several people here, that it just "doesn´t matter" what you call it as long as it sounds and performs well... it stinks.
A case in point: in the Philippines, I once (knowingly) bought a fake "Rolex" brand watch which looks like a Rolex. And you know what? It worked really well for several years. It kept time just great.
So, it performed the same function with maybe 80% of the quality, at 1/1000th of the price, well that´s good, right?
Hey, it performed well, so why not call it a real Rolex, right?
Not long after I bought it, I wore through the gold plating and it looked like poo... but i didn´t mind, as i had paid 20 bucks for it.
But if I had paid 1/3 the price of a real Rolex, I might have been just a little peeved about the gold plating thing. Keep this in mind, at the end of this rant, we will sum things up.
Hey, SoongC... you seem to defend these practices, although in a less obvious way. Do you? And do you sell Usher products?
Now, some special words for Rosa "lets-attack-mowry-for-exposing-our-dark-intentions- and -try-to baffle-the-others-with-BS"....
your argument sounds about as well founded as that of the people who sell fake Rolex watches...
And your intentions, much like theirs, are quite remarkably transparent and easily seen....
I am reasonably sure that many of this community are offended by your ugly attempts to justify deceptive and FRAUDULENT trade practices... and even more so by your scathing attacks on Steve Mowry for exposing your company.
As for Usher, I´m really glad they won all those awards using deceptive and fraudulent advertising (even if it was "unintentional")
I´m sure their customers would be oh so very happy to find that their fancy beryllium tweeters are the same as the PE 28USD version. Yup, but they perform well... and won many awards...
So, hello marketing? Let´s see how we can get a way with selling a 300 USD parts cost speaker (MADE-IN-F´ING-CHINA!!) for 16,000USD .... oh, I know, let it Be, let it Be, Be Beryllium
Yup, here it is at last folks, a real "Rolex equivalent", made in China, with Rolex like pretensions and with near Rolex like performance....
Let´s see, the main body is Gold PLATED instead of milled from solid gold... but if we SAY it´s Solid Gold, just like a Rolex, it´ll sell better....
since that does not affect performance...
well, it´s such a minor difference that maybe we should just omit that part of the info and no damage done, right? and oh, by the way, we will price it at only 2/3 of the Rolex price...
SHAME ON YOU , USHER!! What part of the word FRAUD don´t you understand? Unintentional? UNINTENTIONAL???
I don´t care if your speakers DO sound good, you are liars and con artists. At one point i was very close to buying some of your drivers. Now, I will NEVER buy one of your products.
By the way, what is the Chinese word for "unintentional fraud?"
I think I´ve heard it pronounced like this: CHA-CHING $$$
In closing, a special question for Rosa: is it true you used to work for those fake-Rolex guys before they went into the audio business? Hey Rosa, some of us audio geeks actually LIKE women like you! What other kind of special services do you offer?
Rosa, at the end of each of your posts, you have posted a wise Chinese proverb. On behalf of many in this community, please take your own advice. Shut up, indeed!
In closing, CHA-CHING$$$, CHA-CHING$$$, CHA-CHING$$$
The argument from several people here, that it just "doesn´t matter" what you call it as long as it sounds and performs well... it stinks.
A case in point: in the Philippines, I once (knowingly) bought a fake "Rolex" brand watch which looks like a Rolex. And you know what? It worked really well for several years. It kept time just great.
So, it performed the same function with maybe 80% of the quality, at 1/1000th of the price, well that´s good, right?
Hey, it performed well, so why not call it a real Rolex, right?
Not long after I bought it, I wore through the gold plating and it looked like poo... but i didn´t mind, as i had paid 20 bucks for it.
But if I had paid 1/3 the price of a real Rolex, I might have been just a little peeved about the gold plating thing. Keep this in mind, at the end of this rant, we will sum things up.
Hey, SoongC... you seem to defend these practices, although in a less obvious way. Do you? And do you sell Usher products?
Now, some special words for Rosa "lets-attack-mowry-for-exposing-our-dark-intentions- and -try-to baffle-the-others-with-BS"....
your argument sounds about as well founded as that of the people who sell fake Rolex watches...
And your intentions, much like theirs, are quite remarkably transparent and easily seen....
I am reasonably sure that many of this community are offended by your ugly attempts to justify deceptive and FRAUDULENT trade practices... and even more so by your scathing attacks on Steve Mowry for exposing your company.
As for Usher, I´m really glad they won all those awards using deceptive and fraudulent advertising (even if it was "unintentional")
I´m sure their customers would be oh so very happy to find that their fancy beryllium tweeters are the same as the PE 28USD version. Yup, but they perform well... and won many awards...
So, hello marketing? Let´s see how we can get a way with selling a 300 USD parts cost speaker (MADE-IN-F´ING-CHINA!!) for 16,000USD .... oh, I know, let it Be, let it Be, Be Beryllium
Yup, here it is at last folks, a real "Rolex equivalent", made in China, with Rolex like pretensions and with near Rolex like performance....
Let´s see, the main body is Gold PLATED instead of milled from solid gold... but if we SAY it´s Solid Gold, just like a Rolex, it´ll sell better....
since that does not affect performance...
well, it´s such a minor difference that maybe we should just omit that part of the info and no damage done, right? and oh, by the way, we will price it at only 2/3 of the Rolex price...
SHAME ON YOU , USHER!! What part of the word FRAUD don´t you understand? Unintentional? UNINTENTIONAL???
I don´t care if your speakers DO sound good, you are liars and con artists. At one point i was very close to buying some of your drivers. Now, I will NEVER buy one of your products.
By the way, what is the Chinese word for "unintentional fraud?"
I think I´ve heard it pronounced like this: CHA-CHING $$$
In closing, a special question for Rosa: is it true you used to work for those fake-Rolex guys before they went into the audio business? Hey Rosa, some of us audio geeks actually LIKE women like you! What other kind of special services do you offer?
Rosa, at the end of each of your posts, you have posted a wise Chinese proverb. On behalf of many in this community, please take your own advice. Shut up, indeed!
In closing, CHA-CHING$$$, CHA-CHING$$$, CHA-CHING$$$
I'm bringing this up again because I suppose Scanspeak should know what they are doing.
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d3004_664000.pdf
The breakup mode clearly is very similar to lot's of other metal diaphragm. Does anyone have any more information on this?
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d3004_664000.pdf
The breakup mode clearly is very similar to lot's of other metal diaphragm. Does anyone have any more information on this?
Re: BOGUSIUM INDEED
I don't defend a particular party, but I do wish to see more fair evidence rather than all the mud throwing. I think this is as ungly as politics, and feel sad to see this happen in the audio industry. Audio should be fun and inspiring.
I don't sell or use any Usher products. Personally, I think the sound quality is not up to par with what I would like. But I do admire some of the nice finish they have. I've actually been seeking to find more places around here that can do that kind of paint quality.Santiago53 said:
I don't defend a particular party, but I do wish to see more fair evidence rather than all the mud throwing. I think this is as ungly as politics, and feel sad to see this happen in the audio industry. Audio should be fun and inspiring.
soongsc said:
You are not listening to me. Usher's gray dome material is not an alloy at all. Alloying Be with Titanium is light years from trivial. This is from a previous post.
There have been people that have come forward and provided more information regarding this topic. I will outline some new information below.
The Usher Beryllium is not an alloy. It is a powder coated like titanium foil. The beryllium and thus the beryllium color is either painted on or vapor deposited. A typical metal tweeter dome is about 30 microns thick. The content by mass of the Usher dome is 0.6075% beryllium. Because the density of the beryllium is low relative to the titanium, the percent by volume is about 1.5%. That is consistant with a coating of about 0.3 micron on both sides of the titanium. I have simulated this and the effect of the beryllium coating is pretty much zero. I cannot find any reference to a titanium/beryllium alloy anywhere on the Internet and if I did find a 2% nominal beryllium alloy it would not be a close match to the bluish-steel gray color of beryllium foil like the Usher domes are. As with the CuBe2, a TiBe2 would have the color of titanium. Just like CuBe2 has the color of copper. AlBeMet 140 is 40% Be and 60% aluminum and it has an aluminum color. Usher's domes are a close color match to acoustic grade beryllium foil. They have no noticable smell but something stinks here.
This is consistant with testing in 2004 of parts from Usher's supplier, SONIC with offices in Taiwan and factory in China.
http://www.audioxpress.com/magsdirx/voxcoil/addenda/media/BogusBeryllium.pdf
Would you call aluminum metalized poly bags, aluminum bags and write Aluminum right on the bag? The analogy to Bogusium is very close.
Now are all you Decepticons tuning in?
Hey Steve, let´s not spread the blame too far.
It may not be at all fair to Dr Joe, as in all likelihood he just measures the finished prototype drivers in their proposed boxes, runs simulations on em and creates suitable crossover networks.
Having done similar contracting work, I can tell you that there is absolutely no control over the end product or marketing process. And you probably know this from some of your own experience.
If one of my clients says to me "here is a beryllium dome driver", and i don´t have the inclination to disbelieve my client, or the time to verify the materials content, well then i tend to believe them and just do the design work, and sleep quite soundly at the end of the day.
Dr Joe probably just took the ingredients they gave him and made a critically acclaimed system. No shame there.
It may well be that Dr Joe is acutely embarrassed by this issue but feels there is nothing constructive to be gained (and much to be lost, including his hard earned professional reputation) by entering into this fray. I know if I were in his shoes, I would not respond either. His name will (probably unjustly) suffer enough as it is.
Let´s not diffuse the attention by including someone who is more than likely just a hired contractor doing the job he was paid to do.... and probably not aware of the fake beryllium issue until well after the design phase was over.
Nope, don´t sling arrows at the wrong guys, aim square at the villains. Them villains is Sonic and Usher.
So, let´s carefully and accurately refocus the flamethrower on the greedy little creeps that have knowingly committed fraud... and who will continue to do so until enough heat has been applied to render their derrieres into Chicharron.
by the way, the allusion to Chicharron is entirely deliberate....
Chicharron comes from taking pork skin and deep-frying it in boiling oil...
Of course, I wouldn´t dare imply that the con artists are pigs, but if the slipper fits....
Are you listening Rosa?
It may not be at all fair to Dr Joe, as in all likelihood he just measures the finished prototype drivers in their proposed boxes, runs simulations on em and creates suitable crossover networks.
Having done similar contracting work, I can tell you that there is absolutely no control over the end product or marketing process. And you probably know this from some of your own experience.
If one of my clients says to me "here is a beryllium dome driver", and i don´t have the inclination to disbelieve my client, or the time to verify the materials content, well then i tend to believe them and just do the design work, and sleep quite soundly at the end of the day.
Dr Joe probably just took the ingredients they gave him and made a critically acclaimed system. No shame there.
It may well be that Dr Joe is acutely embarrassed by this issue but feels there is nothing constructive to be gained (and much to be lost, including his hard earned professional reputation) by entering into this fray. I know if I were in his shoes, I would not respond either. His name will (probably unjustly) suffer enough as it is.
Let´s not diffuse the attention by including someone who is more than likely just a hired contractor doing the job he was paid to do.... and probably not aware of the fake beryllium issue until well after the design phase was over.
Nope, don´t sling arrows at the wrong guys, aim square at the villains. Them villains is Sonic and Usher.
So, let´s carefully and accurately refocus the flamethrower on the greedy little creeps that have knowingly committed fraud... and who will continue to do so until enough heat has been applied to render their derrieres into Chicharron.
by the way, the allusion to Chicharron is entirely deliberate....
Chicharron comes from taking pork skin and deep-frying it in boiling oil...
Of course, I wouldn´t dare imply that the con artists are pigs, but if the slipper fits....
Are you listening Rosa?
Hey SoongC, what is your motive for trying to gloss over the Sonic/Usher beryllium FRAUD issue?
Your queries and comments look suspiciously like you have a vested interest in helping sonic and Usher look better than they are.
If you are selling audio goods, be aware that this is NOT making you look good. Maybe to chinese eyes this kind of stuff is OK, but not to most of the Western world.
Is this too blunt?
Well, are you or are you not an audio dealer, and do you or do you not represent some products using alloy domes made by Sonic? like maybe usher speakers?
I hope my suspicions are unfounded, and of course invite you to reply directly, without evasion.
Best Regards
Your queries and comments look suspiciously like you have a vested interest in helping sonic and Usher look better than they are.
If you are selling audio goods, be aware that this is NOT making you look good. Maybe to chinese eyes this kind of stuff is OK, but not to most of the Western world.
Is this too blunt?
Well, are you or are you not an audio dealer, and do you or do you not represent some products using alloy domes made by Sonic? like maybe usher speakers?
I hope my suspicions are unfounded, and of course invite you to reply directly, without evasion.
Best Regards
In case someone missed the OBVIOUS
Attention Chinese brothers and sisters (especially Rosa)
It is NOT acceptable to say that gold plated items are made of solid gold and then sell them that way.
This is not just a "cultural" difference.
Some of the english words for this are:
greed
deceit
fraud
theft
What are the Chinese words for this aside from CHA-CHING?
Rosa: We don´t like it, and we tend to not trust people who try and steal from us.
SoongC:
It´s not about politics. it´s about basic human fairness.
Audio is not going to be a "happy place" until more people stop being greedy and give us good products at a fair value...
And, no, I´m most definitely not a racist. I know and admire some wonderful chinese people. And I positively LOVE chinese women.
(But not the ones like Rosa)
Do you get the point?
It is just not OK to steal or commit fraud.
Attention Chinese brothers and sisters (especially Rosa)
It is NOT acceptable to say that gold plated items are made of solid gold and then sell them that way.
This is not just a "cultural" difference.
Some of the english words for this are:
greed
deceit
fraud
theft
What are the Chinese words for this aside from CHA-CHING?
Rosa: We don´t like it, and we tend to not trust people who try and steal from us.
SoongC:
It´s not about politics. it´s about basic human fairness.
Audio is not going to be a "happy place" until more people stop being greedy and give us good products at a fair value...
And, no, I´m most definitely not a racist. I know and admire some wonderful chinese people. And I positively LOVE chinese women.
(But not the ones like Rosa)
Do you get the point?
It is just not OK to steal or commit fraud.
The whole topic is about "Whole Truth About Beryllium Diaphragms" and I expect to get the WHOLE TRUTH, and not just what a person representing one company bashing another.Santiago53 said:
I am new in audio design, and this mud throwing just makes the industry look bad.
I do not represent any of the brands you mention here, and up to now, nor have I used any products from any.
I hope you are here to know the WHOLE TRUTH. Because as soon as anyone here can publish in this thread his/her own measurement data, I have some of my measurements that will probably but pure Be dome drivers to shame.
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