Not at all Joel. Just an observation on the general human condition. We all hear differently and some will indeed not hear things that other do. It's just when one makes those "Black and White" claims without an honest effort or refuses to listen openly to a different view that I get hot.
Later
Bruce
Later
Bruce
Something else to consider...
When we talk about passives and the way they affect the sound, would it be fair to say that the difference in one component may be impossible to detect, because it is such a small change? My point is this: Maybe when people claim not to hear the difference between components, they are listening to the "sound" of one component change. Maybe the magic is to be found in the best components used throughout- that is, all the small benefits being cumulative and adding up to something beautiful as a whole. If this is the case, then one weak link may be nearly impossible to detect among a group of mediocre or misplaced components. But, when everything is just right, everything works together, and something magic happens. How do you expect to hear the difference between simple component changes, if this is the case? Just a theory: maybe good audio is like a recipe- the end result isn't about tasting any one ingredient- it's the sum of all things complimenting each other. To me, it would make more sense to start with a system full of the best of everything, and try swapping in possible bad sounding components, and see if anything goes sour.
-NS
When we talk about passives and the way they affect the sound, would it be fair to say that the difference in one component may be impossible to detect, because it is such a small change? My point is this: Maybe when people claim not to hear the difference between components, they are listening to the "sound" of one component change. Maybe the magic is to be found in the best components used throughout- that is, all the small benefits being cumulative and adding up to something beautiful as a whole. If this is the case, then one weak link may be nearly impossible to detect among a group of mediocre or misplaced components. But, when everything is just right, everything works together, and something magic happens. How do you expect to hear the difference between simple component changes, if this is the case? Just a theory: maybe good audio is like a recipe- the end result isn't about tasting any one ingredient- it's the sum of all things complimenting each other. To me, it would make more sense to start with a system full of the best of everything, and try swapping in possible bad sounding components, and see if anything goes sour.
-NS
Sound of parts
On the risk of being shot, let me make a prediction:
If you tell listeners that you have added in a "bad" component, 8 (or 9) out of 10 will clearly hear the deterioration.
If, on the other hand, you tell them you put in the worlds'best cap, 8 (or 9) out of 10 will clearly hear the improvement.
Jan Didden
On the risk of being shot, let me make a prediction:
If you tell listeners that you have added in a "bad" component, 8 (or 9) out of 10 will clearly hear the deterioration.
If, on the other hand, you tell them you put in the worlds'best cap, 8 (or 9) out of 10 will clearly hear the improvement.
Jan Didden
don't tell them what's in what, but let them switch between them. if they have good ears, they will still be able to tell the difference.
another thing - some people may not have good enough systems to hear the difference in parts quality. i know that when i upgraded my speakers, etc., my system became excruciatingly sensitive to things that didnt' matter so much before. hence audiophile neurosis.
another thing - some people may not have good enough systems to hear the difference in parts quality. i know that when i upgraded my speakers, etc., my system became excruciatingly sensitive to things that didnt' matter so much before. hence audiophile neurosis.
Dhaen, don't you think the other way around would work also? Hear something and then measure, or am I off my rock (don't answer that, my wife would say YES).
For example if a cap sounded "bright" could this be a group delay issue of lagging low frequency and "soft or dull" sound, lagging High frequency? I don't know. I'm asking. I know what these things look like in video, I'm just trying to figure out how they would sound.
Later
Bruce
For example if a cap sounded "bright" could this be a group delay issue of lagging low frequency and "soft or dull" sound, lagging High frequency? I don't know. I'm asking. I know what these things look like in video, I'm just trying to figure out how they would sound.
Later
Bruce
janneman,
send me two units, say a simple preamp circuit, identical except for parts "quality," in identical black boxes. mark them simply as "1" or "2," and let me listen to them for a month. i'll be able to tell you which one sounds better, if at all. it may well turn out that the cheapo parts sound better, or the expensive parts sound better, but i guarantee you they will sound different, and i will be able to identify them accurately. unless of course they really do sound the same.
send me two units, say a simple preamp circuit, identical except for parts "quality," in identical black boxes. mark them simply as "1" or "2," and let me listen to them for a month. i'll be able to tell you which one sounds better, if at all. it may well turn out that the cheapo parts sound better, or the expensive parts sound better, but i guarantee you they will sound different, and i will be able to identify them accurately. unless of course they really do sound the same.
dorkus said:
This is exactly what has been done by Reginald Williamson in Electronics World a few years ago. Simple line amp, one using price-is-no-object parts, the other parts selected on engineering grounds only. Result: impossible to identify a difference in blind testing. This IS documented.
If you can detect a difference between two otherwise identical units, in my view it only proves the gross incompetence of the designer. A competent design is tolerant on component non-ideal properties.
Jan Didden
In gereral I agree with what has been said in the last few posts. One must consider the whole system in these things. Some amplifiers and speakers don't work well together. The room has a huge effect. The speaker themselves can mask a lot of things.
We all know what our own systems sound like. We know where they are good and where they are not. This should not stop us from trying to find areas to explore.
Myself I plan to use my Beyerdynamic 831 headphones and a Headphone amplifer of my own design (just a big modulated power supply) for my testing with a DVD player as source.
Later and I'll see ya Tuesday;
Bruce
We all know what our own systems sound like. We know where they are good and where they are not. This should not stop us from trying to find areas to explore.
Myself I plan to use my Beyerdynamic 831 headphones and a Headphone amplifer of my own design (just a big modulated power supply) for my testing with a DVD player as source.
Later and I'll see ya Tuesday;
Bruce
ok, well give me the benefit of a doubt and let me try it. maybe my ears are better than Reginald's, or maybe there really is no difference. what sort of system was he using to test it anyway? i would be happy to try this experiment, i could even get my girlfriend involved as an extra listener. she doens't give a rat's *** about stereo equipment, but she is also a musician (oboe) and has about as sharp ears as anyone. IN FACT, she has even commented out of the blue, "hey your stereo sounds different now," after i swapped a single interconnect cable, without me telling her a word. that's even better than double blind.
so, let's give it a shot. i'll figure out a circuit and buy the parts. unless you're afraid to try. i certainly am not.
so, let's give it a shot. i'll figure out a circuit and buy the parts. unless you're afraid to try. i certainly am not.
AGREED.
Hi,
Absolutely.
I realize I've said this before on the forum but I used to use a Stax ELS headphone to be able to discern audible differences in components,wires etc.
It perfectly eliminates room acoustics and all kinds of other deficiencies.
Do any of you recall Linn CEO Ivor Tieffenbrun saying:rubbish in,rubbish out while refering to the Linn TT?
And strangely enough no one seems to argue that OPTs sound different when using different core materials or wire for that matter.
Even when both measure the same...odd.
Ciao,
Hi,
Absolutely.
I realize I've said this before on the forum but I used to use a Stax ELS headphone to be able to discern audible differences in components,wires etc.
It perfectly eliminates room acoustics and all kinds of other deficiencies.
Do any of you recall Linn CEO Ivor Tieffenbrun saying:rubbish in,rubbish out while refering to the Linn TT?
And strangely enough no one seems to argue that OPTs sound different when using different core materials or wire for that matter.
Even when both measure the same...odd.
Ciao,
"Reginald Williamson in Electronics World "
Tell us more about this project please. For instance what type of listeners did they use? Most people could not care one bit about sound at all. And cannot hear the difference between two completely dissimilar amps. If they used so called "audiophiles" I think that it is a completely valid test.
Or..did the system have enough resolution? Was it transistor based? Did it use feedback?
I happen to think that feedback blurs so many detail that the differences in parts becomes negligible..because of the blurring/smearing of sound anyway..
I happen to think that a tube based (SE) zero feedback amp probably shows up parts quality more than any other topology...I might very wrong cause this is just a gut feeling..
On a different note how about measuring harmonic distortion?
ie..does it increase odd or even order harmonics.. (forgive me Joel)
Don't know if that last point makes any sense at all...because I am a complete novice when it comes to the science of it all..
Cheers,
Bas
Tell us more about this project please. For instance what type of listeners did they use? Most people could not care one bit about sound at all. And cannot hear the difference between two completely dissimilar amps. If they used so called "audiophiles" I think that it is a completely valid test.
Or..did the system have enough resolution? Was it transistor based? Did it use feedback?
I happen to think that feedback blurs so many detail that the differences in parts becomes negligible..because of the blurring/smearing of sound anyway..
I happen to think that a tube based (SE) zero feedback amp probably shows up parts quality more than any other topology...I might very wrong cause this is just a gut feeling..
On a different note how about measuring harmonic distortion?
ie..does it increase odd or even order harmonics.. (forgive me Joel)
Don't know if that last point makes any sense at all...because I am a complete novice when it comes to the science of it all..
Cheers,
Bas
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