Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Price of NON-DIY..
I have to agree with Terry here. (I'd hate to be in a Frugal-phile(tm) contest with some of his stuff, the competition would be frighteningly stiff).
I've owned the baby B&Ws are they are staggeringly good for a cheap conventional 2-way bought at a hifi store, but i do have speakers here that a frugal-philed up that easily go head-to-head with them musically for a fraction of the price.
My fit & finess never has a hope of matching the big guys, but i have at least 2 builders who consistenly turn out stuff that does, and one, who given the challenge could equal the best.
Commercial speakers will always be boat-anchored by the need to pay rent, salaries, and feed a distribution chain that almost always includes 1 or 2 other sets of hungry mouths -- in DIY-land we don't even feed ourselves, althou sometimes, one project will feed the basic requirements for the next one.
dave
TerryO said:
I have to agree with Terry here. (I'd hate to be in a Frugal-phile(tm) contest with some of his stuff, the competition would be frighteningly stiff).
I've owned the baby B&Ws are they are staggeringly good for a cheap conventional 2-way bought at a hifi store, but i do have speakers here that a frugal-philed up that easily go head-to-head with them musically for a fraction of the price.
My fit & finess never has a hope of matching the big guys, but i have at least 2 builders who consistenly turn out stuff that does, and one, who given the challenge could equal the best.
Commercial speakers will always be boat-anchored by the need to pay rent, salaries, and feed a distribution chain that almost always includes 1 or 2 other sets of hungry mouths -- in DIY-land we don't even feed ourselves, althou sometimes, one project will feed the basic requirements for the next one.
dave
leadbelly said:Scott
Your points are valid. But you still seem to live in a dream world. Sure, If someone built a $0.49 line array and bought a used graphic eq or whatever to fix the problems maybe they would have something special. But they don't. They run the line array straight up and then deluge us with posts about how they made something that "sounds better than commercial speakers costing $xxxx". I might puke if I read that phrase used on this forum again. Same with finishes. What is the point of saying "well they could put a really nice finish on if they wanted to...."
Anyway, don't anybody take my comments too harshly, I mean I'm here on this forum and I slap speakers together too, I just don't call my Miller Lite champagne!(that was a joke, I only drink dark beers)
I have yet to hear someone say that...
also with a 30 band equalizer, RTA, and cone mods on that NSB with good xovers, in a 3-way setup... I'm sure it would pretty much womp most speakers out there
Loudspeaker Pricing
In point of fact, the ESP Concert Grand SI contains almost $10,000 in parts, including almost $5,000 in raw drivers. I know this because I help procure the materials for this speaker. These costs are before labor, vendor margin, advertising, dealer and distributor margins, etc. Believe me, high-end audio is not a place to make money, and most of us do this part-time because of our love of it, just like DIY'ers.
One can argue about whether a good enough speaker can be made for much less than that, but that is a separate argument. ESP's are not relatively expensive--their price-to-cost ratio is among the lowest in the industry, in an industry where, incidentally, $50,000 speakers are becoming commonplace and $100,000 speakers are not rare (I can think of a dozen or so right off the top of my head). Given its costs, ESP could price its speakers like the others, but chooses not to.
The fact that you may not be able to afford these speakers (for what it's worth, I cannot either) should not make you hostile toward them. The designer is one of the world's great speaker designers, highly respected among great recording and mastering engineers like John Marks and Steve Hoffman (the latter uses the speakers in his mastering studio).
DIY is a great and respectable hobby, but it does not have to be clannish or hostile to outsiders, even though there are, admittedly, many industry vendors who price their products cynically (ESP is NOT one of them) and may deserve a little bit of opprobrium.
Regards,
MJV
In point of fact, the ESP Concert Grand SI contains almost $10,000 in parts, including almost $5,000 in raw drivers. I know this because I help procure the materials for this speaker. These costs are before labor, vendor margin, advertising, dealer and distributor margins, etc. Believe me, high-end audio is not a place to make money, and most of us do this part-time because of our love of it, just like DIY'ers.
One can argue about whether a good enough speaker can be made for much less than that, but that is a separate argument. ESP's are not relatively expensive--their price-to-cost ratio is among the lowest in the industry, in an industry where, incidentally, $50,000 speakers are becoming commonplace and $100,000 speakers are not rare (I can think of a dozen or so right off the top of my head). Given its costs, ESP could price its speakers like the others, but chooses not to.
The fact that you may not be able to afford these speakers (for what it's worth, I cannot either) should not make you hostile toward them. The designer is one of the world's great speaker designers, highly respected among great recording and mastering engineers like John Marks and Steve Hoffman (the latter uses the speakers in his mastering studio).
DIY is a great and respectable hobby, but it does not have to be clannish or hostile to outsiders, even though there are, admittedly, many industry vendors who price their products cynically (ESP is NOT one of them) and may deserve a little bit of opprobrium.
Regards,
MJV
Re: Loudspeaker Pricing
Almost 10k in parts hmm?
The "almost" would have to be quite liberal - even if the manufacturer is ordering custom drivers and crossover components (of the "exotic" variety). Nor would wood or veneer boost the price so much. (even solid wood - excepting rare species.)
Don't get me wrong. I'm generally not in the habit of bashing anyone's products. (Nor did my comments have anything to do with my purchasing ability, or anyone elses for that matter.) Your belief that the speakers are not "relatively expensive" is simply not a belief I could possibly share, nor do I think most others could share it (..but I do respect your right to your opinion). Again, just because speakers near 50k or more are common place does not (in-it-self) justify their existance. Moreover if their price-to-cost ratio is so poor, (for them with such an exhaulted price), I can only think that they don't know how to properly control costs. And yet again - I *DO* think they are pricing their speakers in such a manner (i.e. w-a-y over-priced). If you don't think the pricing is "cynical", so be it (as your viewpoint). But I'm not sure cynicism has anything to do with pricing structure - rather, look to supply and demand factors.
And I'm sure this goes without mentioning, but I'll state it anyway. Just because some (or perhaps many even) think that a speaker designer is "one of the best" doesn't mean "boo" here (..and this is where we can get VERY cynical). Nor is this sentiment particularly bolstered by association with recording/mastering engineers (..supposedly great or otherwise). (i.e. this appears to be marketing pure and simple.., which is both out-of-place here and frankly wasted on this board - as I doubt you'll find anyone here in the target market for such speakers.)
And sure, hi-end audio is a place to make money - it really depends though on the quality of your product and your ability to control costs coupled with your marketing capability, (just ask Dave.. Wilson that is.)
MJV said:
Almost 10k in parts hmm?
The "almost" would have to be quite liberal - even if the manufacturer is ordering custom drivers and crossover components (of the "exotic" variety). Nor would wood or veneer boost the price so much. (even solid wood - excepting rare species.)
Don't get me wrong. I'm generally not in the habit of bashing anyone's products. (Nor did my comments have anything to do with my purchasing ability, or anyone elses for that matter.) Your belief that the speakers are not "relatively expensive" is simply not a belief I could possibly share, nor do I think most others could share it (..but I do respect your right to your opinion). Again, just because speakers near 50k or more are common place does not (in-it-self) justify their existance. Moreover if their price-to-cost ratio is so poor, (for them with such an exhaulted price), I can only think that they don't know how to properly control costs. And yet again - I *DO* think they are pricing their speakers in such a manner (i.e. w-a-y over-priced). If you don't think the pricing is "cynical", so be it (as your viewpoint). But I'm not sure cynicism has anything to do with pricing structure - rather, look to supply and demand factors.
And I'm sure this goes without mentioning, but I'll state it anyway. Just because some (or perhaps many even) think that a speaker designer is "one of the best" doesn't mean "boo" here (..and this is where we can get VERY cynical). Nor is this sentiment particularly bolstered by association with recording/mastering engineers (..supposedly great or otherwise). (i.e. this appears to be marketing pure and simple.., which is both out-of-place here and frankly wasted on this board - as I doubt you'll find anyone here in the target market for such speakers.)
And sure, hi-end audio is a place to make money - it really depends though on the quality of your product and your ability to control costs coupled with your marketing capability, (just ask Dave.. Wilson that is.)
ScottG,
Remember... 10k parts cost could also mean, that they'd cost 10k if one was to buy them seperately, including a margin for distributor etc.
It could also be the cost to persuade some of the involved people to sell any of the (more-or-less) hand made parts. When custom made or hand made, price is no longer an issue, as there is only one source... which can set the price tag as desired.
In other words, my reasons differ, but essentially we agree that sales-price vs. parts cost is irrelevant when it comes to these up-priced items.
As long as there's someone who is willing to pay the price, there's always someone who's willing to manufacture/sell. (i.e., the 300$ wooden knob. Hey, it's given them all the publicity they could ask, and probably thousands of visits to their web site!)
Jennice
Remember... 10k parts cost could also mean, that they'd cost 10k if one was to buy them seperately, including a margin for distributor etc.
It could also be the cost to persuade some of the involved people to sell any of the (more-or-less) hand made parts. When custom made or hand made, price is no longer an issue, as there is only one source... which can set the price tag as desired.
In other words, my reasons differ, but essentially we agree that sales-price vs. parts cost is irrelevant when it comes to these up-priced items.
As long as there's someone who is willing to pay the price, there's always someone who's willing to manufacture/sell. (i.e., the 300$ wooden knob. Hey, it's given them all the publicity they could ask, and probably thousands of visits to their web site!)
Jennice
I seem to have come late to the thread here, but I have a few observations if I may.
First as regards the price of “High End” audio gear it seems to always be debated as to the intrinsic value of an audio product but I’ve never run across any derision as to the pricing of Ferrari’s $850,000 sports car the F40 or a Breguet watch at $200K plus or even a multi-million dollar Lürssen yacht; all of which may in a reductionistic view be considered to have been constructed from a few hundred dollars worth of aluminum, steel and composites in the case of the Ferrari and Breguet or a few thousand (well maybe tens of thousands) in the case of the Lürssen. Why is it that audio equipment alone is singled out? My own belief is perhaps because we are able to pierce the veil of the “Marketing Mystique” of the products in question and actually know how they are manufactured. Thus with this knowledge we think, why I could do the same for “x” amount of dollars; with familiarity breeds contempt. Whereas, few have the general knowledge to be able to replicate a Lamborghini, it simply never crosses one’s mind to question the value of a million dollar car? Maybe they would if they realized that these products come from mundane origins, remember Ferruccio started with farm tractors, just doesn’t bring to mind the allure of today’s marketing image does it?
Personally I don’t begrudge the existence of the myriad array of exotica available to the uber-rich the manufactures are just supplying a market demand for the unique. From a commercial standpoint this is no different than a company supplying the demand for yet another soft drink. Whether high or low in the market a product only exists do to the desire of its consumer base, no demand no product.
As to the parts cost to retail price ratio, the manufacturer must include a far greater amount of expense than is usually considered, there are the employees’ salaries, the utilities, the lease or mortgage on the building, not to mention insurance one of the largest expenses, just go price business liability insurance for true sticker shock. The parts must be purchased in large enough quantities to support the product for years of future customer service. And, of course must be warehoused properly and insured, separate from the liability policy yet additional expense. Not to even begin to mention the finishing process which may have to be sub-contracted out do to EPA compliance with VOCs and disposal of hazardous waste. Just what do you do with the shellac, lacquer, polyurethane, turpentine, paint thinner, used rags, pads, brushes and all the detritus from the construction process? Then there is the shipping, not an inconsequential expense; the packing material, shipping box and transportation costs may actually exceed the parts cost in general consumer electronics such as at the chain stores and while that is not true for the higher priced goods it is still a significant factor. Before casting aspersions at a “High End” product consider how labor intensive it is to produce, in addition to the research and development it took, perhaps hundreds of man-hours of labor, before it could be offered to the market in the first place.
End of rant.
First as regards the price of “High End” audio gear it seems to always be debated as to the intrinsic value of an audio product but I’ve never run across any derision as to the pricing of Ferrari’s $850,000 sports car the F40 or a Breguet watch at $200K plus or even a multi-million dollar Lürssen yacht; all of which may in a reductionistic view be considered to have been constructed from a few hundred dollars worth of aluminum, steel and composites in the case of the Ferrari and Breguet or a few thousand (well maybe tens of thousands) in the case of the Lürssen. Why is it that audio equipment alone is singled out? My own belief is perhaps because we are able to pierce the veil of the “Marketing Mystique” of the products in question and actually know how they are manufactured. Thus with this knowledge we think, why I could do the same for “x” amount of dollars; with familiarity breeds contempt. Whereas, few have the general knowledge to be able to replicate a Lamborghini, it simply never crosses one’s mind to question the value of a million dollar car? Maybe they would if they realized that these products come from mundane origins, remember Ferruccio started with farm tractors, just doesn’t bring to mind the allure of today’s marketing image does it?
Personally I don’t begrudge the existence of the myriad array of exotica available to the uber-rich the manufactures are just supplying a market demand for the unique. From a commercial standpoint this is no different than a company supplying the demand for yet another soft drink. Whether high or low in the market a product only exists do to the desire of its consumer base, no demand no product.
As to the parts cost to retail price ratio, the manufacturer must include a far greater amount of expense than is usually considered, there are the employees’ salaries, the utilities, the lease or mortgage on the building, not to mention insurance one of the largest expenses, just go price business liability insurance for true sticker shock. The parts must be purchased in large enough quantities to support the product for years of future customer service. And, of course must be warehoused properly and insured, separate from the liability policy yet additional expense. Not to even begin to mention the finishing process which may have to be sub-contracted out do to EPA compliance with VOCs and disposal of hazardous waste. Just what do you do with the shellac, lacquer, polyurethane, turpentine, paint thinner, used rags, pads, brushes and all the detritus from the construction process? Then there is the shipping, not an inconsequential expense; the packing material, shipping box and transportation costs may actually exceed the parts cost in general consumer electronics such as at the chain stores and while that is not true for the higher priced goods it is still a significant factor. Before casting aspersions at a “High End” product consider how labor intensive it is to produce, in addition to the research and development it took, perhaps hundreds of man-hours of labor, before it could be offered to the market in the first place.
End of rant.
Now it's my understanding as taught in Commerce faculties, the the Standard business model in the Western World for manufacturing is 20% of the Retail price of a product is what the Manufacturer recieves.. that Includes ALL parts labour, overhead, Shipping and Profit. Rememember.. Products usually go into a distribution network and to retailers.. who bear the burden of Selling the Stuff.. they won't do it for free.. there is always risk involved
Granted some may want to/can risk altering that percentage, but they are 'pushing onna string' financially... the system has been in place for some time.
Bleating to the Contrary is basically self serving.
Granted some may want to/can risk altering that percentage, but they are 'pushing onna string' financially... the system has been in place for some time.
Bleating to the Contrary is basically self serving.
Just some thoughts.
I sure hope a 50K speaker includes some prestige. People dropping 50K aren't worried about pennies. They are worried about image.
When you're figuring out what your project costs don't forget to inclue things like tools. I've some times bought things I could make because the cost for a new tool would not make sense.
I sure hope a 50K speaker includes some prestige. People dropping 50K aren't worried about pennies. They are worried about image.
When you're figuring out what your project costs don't forget to inclue things like tools. I've some times bought things I could make because the cost for a new tool would not make sense.
NickZ said:
yup, this was part of what I implied with my statement of "supply and demand" - that at this pricing level consumers are relativly insensitive to price (i.e. they will pay just about anything as long as they perceive that they are getting what they want at the time they make the purchase.)
To cfb..
As to the debate of High End audio products - "why are they singled out"? It could be that they are singled out HERE because this is a related topic. I'm sure you'll find car enthusiast boards debating the value of Ferrari or a Lamborghini. Additionally, your missing a vital fact here with your analogy - that NONE of your examples include products built largely built from parts from out-sourced suppliers (and in particular suppliers that are available to DIY'ers). In otherwords they actually produce their products from raw materials which is VASTLY more expensive to do - and which is why a product from a manufacturer like Audio Note Japan could well represent a legitimate value to even a DIY'er.
In this instance the only serious labor intensive raw material-to-product is the loudspeaker's cabinet - which is NOT some incredible feat of woodworking, but rather is something that with effort could be acomplished by a DIY'er (..and quite possibly bettered by a DIY'er).
To all:
We seem to be getting a little off-track here. A "break-down" of the costs for producing a product is largely irrelevant in so far as it exceeds parts and materials - i.e the DIY'ers expenditure. Remember this thread was established to suggest that while at least some of us do in fact spend a considerable amount of money on our hobby, that the results may more than justify the costs (monitarily speaking) when compared to a loudspeaker like the aforementioned ESP product at its retail price. (..and of course as mentioned previously by others - the value of DIY goes beyond a simple monitary calculation.)
From a consumer viewpoint I have nothing against ESP or similar offerings from other companies. To me they justify their existance by selling product - period (..more power to 'em). Nor would I hesitate to even recomend them if I believed they sounded as good or better than most products up to their price-point (..though I've never heard them - so I can't say this).
From the perspective of a DIY'er however the balance of percieved value is radically shifted and perhaps could be perceived as "bashing" or an "attack" on ESP speakers - if so, so be it. But please remember the context here, otherwise it represents a disservice to them and other similar manufacturers.
There was however one area that I did attack that IMO is justified as a "consumer attack" - the riduculous marketing preamble on their website entitled "Pricing Explained" where they actually try to justify their retail price by attacking other similarly priced products. (..and recently MJV tried to bolster this absurd notion with illusive claims, glittering generalities, and testimonials.) In my view this reaches pretty-much into the context of:
"the Emporer's clothes are so expensive because other Emporers are wearing the same thing..".
My apologies for not conveying my reasoning as clearly as I should have in my previous post.
I was actually referring to the fact that in the audio hobby taken as a whole and not just exclusively to DIYAudio.com there is a more pronounced critique of High End products in general than one finds to be the case in other fields of specialized interest i.e. the automotive or boating fields for example, one could also add watches and wine. True, one can certainly find the occasional criticism amongst these fields of enthusiasts but not to the extent one finds in the audio hobby.
I do not know the specific facts surrounding the manufacturer mentioned in the earlier posts but my comments were meant to be applicable to High End audio manufacturers in general and not exclusively to a singular company. I would not assume a priori that a particular product is or was overpriced in the market without more detailed information as to the company’s expenses involved in its manufacture. For example, there may have been costs associated with producing the product such as outside design consulting services or testing for example was time in an anechoic chamber purchased perhaps, we do not know. Furthermore I was attempting to illustrate that there exists far more expense to a manufacturer than the part costs alone. If indeed the company in question has stated to a production cost of $10,000 there might be material costs or other investments that are included in that amount in excess of the speaker driver outlay.
Additionally, the stated production expenditures in the amount of approximately $10,000 would tend to demand a final retail price of between $40,000 to $50,000 once standard distributor and retail margins are taken into consideration.
As to the typical DIY audio enthusiast, I notice that many of the DIY projects have a total cost outlay that is equivalent to the currently stated level of what is classed as a discretionary expenditure, being approximately $500 in United States currency for the time frame of 2004 to 2005. For purposes of illustration were such a project to be a commercial product then that level of expenditure ($500) would necessitate a retail price of approximately $2,500. This might erroneously seem an unusually high retail price particularly to the hobbyist who constructed our hypothetical product in this example.
I was actually referring to the fact that in the audio hobby taken as a whole and not just exclusively to DIYAudio.com there is a more pronounced critique of High End products in general than one finds to be the case in other fields of specialized interest i.e. the automotive or boating fields for example, one could also add watches and wine. True, one can certainly find the occasional criticism amongst these fields of enthusiasts but not to the extent one finds in the audio hobby.
I do not know the specific facts surrounding the manufacturer mentioned in the earlier posts but my comments were meant to be applicable to High End audio manufacturers in general and not exclusively to a singular company. I would not assume a priori that a particular product is or was overpriced in the market without more detailed information as to the company’s expenses involved in its manufacture. For example, there may have been costs associated with producing the product such as outside design consulting services or testing for example was time in an anechoic chamber purchased perhaps, we do not know. Furthermore I was attempting to illustrate that there exists far more expense to a manufacturer than the part costs alone. If indeed the company in question has stated to a production cost of $10,000 there might be material costs or other investments that are included in that amount in excess of the speaker driver outlay.
Additionally, the stated production expenditures in the amount of approximately $10,000 would tend to demand a final retail price of between $40,000 to $50,000 once standard distributor and retail margins are taken into consideration.
As to the typical DIY audio enthusiast, I notice that many of the DIY projects have a total cost outlay that is equivalent to the currently stated level of what is classed as a discretionary expenditure, being approximately $500 in United States currency for the time frame of 2004 to 2005. For purposes of illustration were such a project to be a commercial product then that level of expenditure ($500) would necessitate a retail price of approximately $2,500. This might erroneously seem an unusually high retail price particularly to the hobbyist who constructed our hypothetical product in this example.
cfb said:
Though it isn't neccesarily relevant to the thread I'll make a guess here and try and "tie" this in with the thread's topic..
1. Compared to other expenditures.. this pursuit relies on our hearing ability, and we are still in the infancy period of understanding this ability. Moreover, the issue is compounded by the fact that no two persons have exactly the same auditory sense. Now the mention of wine in this "sense" perfectly correlates with Hi-Fi (..the others mention do not). A quick search will reveal that there is every bit if not more contention as an ethusiast pursuit. Additionally, like audio, our understanding of our tasteing ability is every bit as limited (..perhaps more so). And again, no two people will have exactly the same sense of taste.
2. In conjunction with #1, our ability to define "perfect" reproduction of audio has often had little correlation (or even an inverse correlation) with what any given listener would describe as "perfect" reproduction. Low cost mass-market "mid"-fi equipment is often reputed to "measure" better than more costly alternatives. With such a vast disparity in pricing the natural question arises: "why spend more for less?". The answer of course is because what supposedly is less (by way of measurement) often sounds better to any given listener.
3. Tieing in with the thread.. notice the response I gave you before. While we may delinate the difference here (on the board) between speaker building and consmer purchases of speakers, (or other audio equipment in general), the average consumer might not. Such a consumer might simply account for the raw material cost and the available parts costs along with the perceived complexity of assmebly and come to the conclusion that such a product is not worth its cost. (..which I believe is what you thought I was reffering to in this thread.) This is further compounded by the fact that assembly IS often with in reach of lay person (given sufficient patience, research, and applied knowledge). As the commercials say "but wait, theres more.."; "Tweaking" based on parts substitution may well lead a person to believe they can "one-up" a commercial product - which even further calls into question the consumer value of the product.
All three categories spawn ADDITIONAL critique that other enthusiast pursuits might not have - which is perhaps one set of reasons why High End Audio might be more contentious than other interests.
As to real production costs industry-wide. I think that its usefullness is dubious at best. No doubt you'll find quite a few companies in Hi-Fi that do not conform to standard business models. (i.e. the "norm" is not the "norm" here.)
I'm also not sure what hi-fi DIY'ers are spending on their hobby. I personally occasion several of the larger forums (like this one) primarily relating to loudspeaker building, and while I couldn't disagree that $500US represents a reas. average (or mean), I rarely find anyone that spends anywhere around this figure. Typically the expenditure is substantially more or less than 500 (often 300 or less or 700+++). I've personally spent more than 700 this year on drivers alone, ( - so perhaps I started this thread looking for my own justification..). In any event this is an interesting topic, but I'd say its worthy of its own thread.
Whenever you pay for a commercial product, you are paying for that company to keep jobs available, just like the ones most of use have.
Frequently when I walk into an audio store, the first question people around here ask is "what kind of budget do you have in mind?" I think it's just because there are so much variety that the combination is unlimited.
I think DIY is fun. But if I could get something of a good quality at less price (work hour price included) than I can do myself I would go buy. If I think I can do something with better quality for the price, then I make.
Speakers are just one of those things that look simple, but really complicated if you want to get them really good, yet they are fault tolerant (don't burn up if you do something wrong), you always hear a difference with a tweak, yet, you always think you're missing it just by a little. It's addicting.
Frequently when I walk into an audio store, the first question people around here ask is "what kind of budget do you have in mind?" I think it's just because there are so much variety that the combination is unlimited.
I think DIY is fun. But if I could get something of a good quality at less price (work hour price included) than I can do myself I would go buy. If I think I can do something with better quality for the price, then I make.
Speakers are just one of those things that look simple, but really complicated if you want to get them really good, yet they are fault tolerant (don't burn up if you do something wrong), you always hear a difference with a tweak, yet, you always think you're missing it just by a little. It's addicting.
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