Re: Another fine pair.....
Hi All,
I think I should have been more specific here!!
What I meant to say was that one set has socketed caps to roll those. I have a habit of socketing op amps nowaday as I've had to replace a few in the past due to 
, and you know how difficult that can be!!! 
I'll have a look through this thread again to see what the cap-swap recommendations are. Although my DC offset is pretty negligible, I'm still a little nervous when it come to DC coupling my beloved IPLs! I have some Obbs here I can try, and also some teflons, too.
The second box idea was more about noise reduction as about getting it all in the same case (4 trafos will weigh a bit - and I have only alu cases stashed away at the moment), but I'll have another look at it. Perhaps a steel baseboard for load-spreading the trafos??
I'm enjoying them with a LS, so halfway there!!
Cheers!!!
Jon
jonclancy said:... or MyRefC amps!! Same toroids, though!
As I have the other pair socketed, it'll make rolling easy.
Hi All,
I think I should have been more specific here!!
What I meant to say was that one set has socketed caps to roll those. I have a habit of socketing op amps nowaday as I've had to replace a few in the past due to , and you know how difficult that can be!!! I'll have a look through this thread again to see what the cap-swap recommendations are. Although my DC offset is pretty negligible, I'm still a little nervous when it come to DC coupling my beloved IPLs! I have some Obbs here I can try, and also some teflons, too.
The second box idea was more about noise reduction as about getting it all in the same case (4 trafos will weigh a bit - and I have only alu cases stashed away at the moment), but I'll have another look at it. Perhaps a steel baseboard for load-spreading the trafos??
I'm enjoying them with a LS, so halfway there!!
Cheers!!!
Jon
Jon
Dont sweat the DC to much. If you have 50mV then you will start to hear it and over 100mV and its not a good thing for your speakers from what I have read. The DC just sits there and warms your speakers and makes a crackling, fuzzy noise while the cone goes into excursion. A little of this is fine and if you cant hear it - even better. A lot of this will cook he speaker. What actually happens is the wires wound round the voice coil have a glue on them to hold them in place. The glue cooks off and then the 'motor' of the voice coil cant work as well as it had.
One thing you can do to 'roll' caps for output is to remove the output speakers and get a few alligator clips. Remove your speaker wire from the speaker terminal and replace it with the cap then alligator clip the speaker wire to the other end of the cap.
Uriah
Dont sweat the DC to much. If you have 50mV then you will start to hear it and over 100mV and its not a good thing for your speakers from what I have read. The DC just sits there and warms your speakers and makes a crackling, fuzzy noise while the cone goes into excursion. A little of this is fine and if you cant hear it - even better. A lot of this will cook he speaker. What actually happens is the wires wound round the voice coil have a glue on them to hold them in place. The glue cooks off and then the 'motor' of the voice coil cant work as well as it had.
One thing you can do to 'roll' caps for output is to remove the output speakers and get a few alligator clips. Remove your speaker wire from the speaker terminal and replace it with the cap then alligator clip the speaker wire to the other end of the cap.
Uriah
Re: Re: Another fine pair.....
To help your reread the most important posts about my caps choice:
Caps swap description
Clarification on C6/C11
All the mods (outdated, C13 now has no bypass at all)
How the standard kit could sound (DC Coupled)
Mouser BOM for the import tool (remember that the 10nF is no longer necessary)
Good work!
jonclancy said:
To help your reread the most important posts about my caps choice:
Caps swap description
Clarification on C6/C11
All the mods (outdated, C13 now has no bypass at all)
How the standard kit could sound (DC Coupled)
Mouser BOM for the import tool (remember that the 10nF is no longer necessary)
Good work!
Hello,
First of all thanks to Peter and Uriah for the GB, and of course to Mauro. I have assembled the kit, and it worked flawlessly the first time. I've never heard such good music from my old sony bookcase test speaker. So detailed, i never know my test speaker can sound that good!
I've read about the caps mods etc. As I will be ordering parts for my 3rd kits (Ordered 2 extra PCB on top of the 2 kits). What would be the parts to upgrade in regards to resistors, or what would be the 'ultimate' parts?
I will follow on Dario's suggestion for the caps, any suggestion in regards to other parts?
If shorting the input caps will still leave the caps signature, if we were to bypass the caps by connecting the input directly to the cap's output pin, would the signature sound still be there?
Many thanks for all the thread contributor, I've learn quite a lot just by reading.
Kind regards,
Ben
First of all thanks to Peter and Uriah for the GB, and of course to Mauro. I have assembled the kit, and it worked flawlessly the first time. I've never heard such good music from my old sony bookcase test speaker. So detailed, i never know my test speaker can sound that good!
I've read about the caps mods etc. As I will be ordering parts for my 3rd kits (Ordered 2 extra PCB on top of the 2 kits). What would be the parts to upgrade in regards to resistors, or what would be the 'ultimate' parts?
I will follow on Dario's suggestion for the caps, any suggestion in regards to other parts?
If shorting the input caps will still leave the caps signature, if we were to bypass the caps by connecting the input directly to the cap's output pin, would the signature sound still be there?
Many thanks for all the thread contributor, I've learn quite a lot just by reading.
Kind regards,
Ben
Hi Ben. If you want super resistors try Michael Percy Audio. Download his catalog. Find what you want (HOLCO and PRP resistors should cost you around 45 cents each) total it all up and send the money via paypal to Michael Percy. This is probably the fastest way to reach him. I had a heck of a time just sending him emails. Someone said pay him FIRST then you will get a quick response.
Uriah
Uriah
Michael Percy offers good selection of quality parts, but his service is a bad joke--on you. He once actually told me that he had too much business and didn't want to fill my order. Avoid him.
I have had far better success with Parts Connexion. They have recently upgraded their web siite to make it even easier to order parts, and they respond to e-mails and ship very quickly, and their prices are usually competitive with, sometimes better than, Percy's. I purchased a bunch of PRP resistors from them for my "ballsout" My Ref's, and they even matched the tight tolerance ones for me for a small fee.
Dario is not the only person with a qualified opinion on quality caps for this amp. See my previous posts, as well. Some of his evaluations are spot on, but his selection of Elna electro at C9 is a poor choice. A Blackgate there is far superior in every respect except price, and even the stock Panny FM's are better than Elna. I have received e-mail from another builder who experimented with caps who agrees with that. If you choose to install C13 (and I believe you should if you value your speakers), concentrate the most money on that component. I have found the Mundorf Silver/Oil to be the best so far, but it takes a loooong time to break in. Caps constructed of film and actual foil instead of metalized paper also provide outstanding results. Almost any decent cap must be mounted off the board, but that poses no problems if it is secured from vibration. You can save some money by using a smaller cap there: 1.0 uF is not necessary. You can get by with a 0.68 and still get decent bass.
If you have an extra board left over, I am desperate to buy one.
Peace,
Tom E
I have had far better success with Parts Connexion. They have recently upgraded their web siite to make it even easier to order parts, and they respond to e-mails and ship very quickly, and their prices are usually competitive with, sometimes better than, Percy's. I purchased a bunch of PRP resistors from them for my "ballsout" My Ref's, and they even matched the tight tolerance ones for me for a small fee.
Dario is not the only person with a qualified opinion on quality caps for this amp. See my previous posts, as well. Some of his evaluations are spot on, but his selection of Elna electro at C9 is a poor choice. A Blackgate there is far superior in every respect except price, and even the stock Panny FM's are better than Elna. I have received e-mail from another builder who experimented with caps who agrees with that. If you choose to install C13 (and I believe you should if you value your speakers), concentrate the most money on that component. I have found the Mundorf Silver/Oil to be the best so far, but it takes a loooong time to break in. Caps constructed of film and actual foil instead of metalized paper also provide outstanding results. Almost any decent cap must be mounted off the board, but that poses no problems if it is secured from vibration. You can save some money by using a smaller cap there: 1.0 uF is not necessary. You can get by with a 0.68 and still get decent bass.
If you have an extra board left over, I am desperate to buy one.
Peace,
Tom E
Hi Ben,
start removing bypasses and replace AVXs with Wimas as in this post (C13 bypass no longer necessary).
Regarding resistors you can buy the excellent Takman and CMF55 0,1% (guaranteed non magnetic) and for the Elcos, since Tom doesn't agree with me, try if it's good enough for you with FMs.
If you'll find that highs could be more refined and bass is a bit muddy then go for Silmics or even Blackgates.
In C13 position a 1,2uF Mundorf MCAP Zn is quite as good as DC coupling, for me there's no need to go further.
If you connect directly the RCA to the output of the cap no signature is added.
Tom, for sure I'm not the only qualified person and I value your impressions; I'm pretty sure that a Blackgate in C9 could be even better than a Silmic but I can say for sure (because I've tried it, with and without bypass) that FMs are not as good as Silmics.
You're still writing as an absolute truth that a Silmic in C9 is a bad choice when you didn't tried it with the 22nF FKP2 bypass.
If another guy tried Silmics in C9 and agree with your findings it would be better if he shares his impressions here in the thread, isn't it?.
Last edited:
Sorry, Dario. I should have stated that it was my opinion, not as a fact. I certainly value all of your insights and your thorough testing procedures, and I have successfully implemented some of your recommendations, such as removing bypasses. Nor did I mean to imply that my opinions have any more validity than yours. However, I am somewhat frustrated that I have been sharing my experiments here but everyone seems to refer to you as the expert. It just pisses me off that my impressions are disregarded, but that certainly isn't your fault.
I don't know why the person who sent me the e-mail did not post his impressions here. He did opine that the Elna's were not a good substitute for FM's, but I don't know if he tried that smaller bypass you prescribe to cure them of their smothering characteristics. You are correct to state that I did not try it in that configuration. However, these are only opinions, and all builders are encouraged to experiment for themselves.
I guess that's the main point, and our findings and opinions, yours and mine alike, should be considered as only a starting point.
I wish others would post their impressions. There is no penalty for disagreeing here, and we all appreciate different configurations and points of view. What ever happened to the guy who said he was going to try some kind of cap substitute circuit with lots of different caps?
Friends again, Dario?
Peace,
Tom E
I don't know why the person who sent me the e-mail did not post his impressions here. He did opine that the Elna's were not a good substitute for FM's, but I don't know if he tried that smaller bypass you prescribe to cure them of their smothering characteristics. You are correct to state that I did not try it in that configuration. However, these are only opinions, and all builders are encouraged to experiment for themselves.
I guess that's the main point, and our findings and opinions, yours and mine alike, should be considered as only a starting point.
I wish others would post their impressions. There is no penalty for disagreeing here, and we all appreciate different configurations and points of view. What ever happened to the guy who said he was going to try some kind of cap substitute circuit with lots of different caps?
Friends again, Dario?
Peace,
Tom E
Hi Tom,
first of all I have always considered you as a friend, we're simply confronting opinions
And as I've previously stated I value you opinions, you're experience with high end gear is way better than mine.
You're feedback on changes was determinant for knowing for sure that I wasn't fooling myself
Thanks to you're findings on the strange 'nasality' I've found a better value for C21 and tried FKP2s, that are far better than AVXs or MKS2s.
Is for that same reason that I would have appreciated that you'd first swapped C21 to confirm or not its effect on Silmics on C9.
But apart that C9 cap it wasn't a team work?
And last but not least it's only you that confirmed everyone that better resistors are an improvement.
No experts here, only appasionate people, as me and you, that experiment and share their findings!
Last edited:
Hi Tom,
sorry about your frustration. I don't think people are ignoring you.
I did request the silmic's from you and have posted my feedback previously.
Before I sold the my ref unit, I did a bunch of coupling cap comparisons.
Using your silmics, nichicon muse, panasonic fm, k42y PIO's. I did
do some of the mods like replacing the avx's with the wimas.
I honestly I could hear much of a difference between the electrolytic
caps. The k42y pio opens up the sound some more, that's about it.
I've tried DC coupling as well. In summary, in my set up with my speakers, amp and preamp, the sound was overly bright(way to crisp) for music. for H.T. it was fine.
I still have a set of boards and may re-visit it once again. It all comes
down to your own system and whether one cap sounds better or not
is really up to the listener.
we are all in it together to learn a thing or to and have some fun!
I must say that I have a stock units as put together by Peter and Uriah with the nice toroids that Uriah found and I love the way it sounds as is. I use it with a sub and NHT Super Ones in a nearfield setup. The imaging is excellent with nice resolution and natural timber.
I have a very revealing preamp in the wings that I hope to have finished in the next few weeks. After it settles in to my system I am looking forward to trying some of the suggestions put forth here as I am sure that I will be able to hear the differences.
Definitely going for an upgrade to C13, and am open to suggestions for resistors that are in the signal path.
I have a very revealing preamp in the wings that I hope to have finished in the next few weeks. After it settles in to my system I am looking forward to trying some of the suggestions put forth here as I am sure that I will be able to hear the differences.
Definitely going for an upgrade to C13, and am open to suggestions for resistors that are in the signal path.
that's good to hear. the person I sold the unit to said it sounded great in his system.
I think my issue is I had the mmg's at the time and it was most likely not a good match for them. probably sounds fine as you mentioned with standard cone drivers.
if I build another set, I'll post some feedback on the various caps.
might as well ignore my previous cap feedback since with planars, the
sound was not too impressive.
Yes, I think that you don't want to push these amps. They do play nice and loud but I rarely listen loud, that and combining with a sub so that they don't have to work hard. I think that is how I get the wonderful noise out of them, good source helps too though.
I guess I will need to find an active x-over now for the new pre. so I can use the sub. Anyone have any suggestions?
I guess I will need to find an active x-over now for the new pre. so I can use the sub. Anyone have any suggestions?
you guys are great!
I had the mini Aleph running the mmg's and it sounded very nice.
I took a detour and went the HT route for now. bought an emotiva xpa-5.
The Adcom you have is a powerhouse! I'm on the west coast so
shipping is a killer, thanks for the offer! very generous of you.
I'm slowly working on an Aleph J.
I had the mini Aleph running the mmg's and it sounded very nice.
I took a detour and went the HT route for now. bought an emotiva xpa-5.
The Adcom you have is a powerhouse!
I'm on the west coast soshipping is a killer, thanks for the offer! very generous of you.
I'm slowly working on an Aleph J.
Hello,
Tom, I've read your advice as well and I thank you as well as one of the thread contributor (I said that didnt I?). When I say I will follow Dario's advice, I mean the one that he posted a list of the recommended mod, the agreed and the controversial ones. I surely remember your advice about the silmics vs fm. When I try them, I will give my impression here.
But I think mostly are agreeing that the high is a bit 'over'. Its not harsh, or 'bad' its just 'more' than to my liking. I agree as well that the bass is 'less'. it sounds detailed, tight, but 'less'. This is why I would like to try out different caps. This is an excellent amp in any way, btw, what I said is purely my opinion.
What is the critical resistor that's in the signal path definitely should be upgraded?
Tom, I've read your advice as well and I thank you as well as one of the thread contributor (I said that didnt I?
). When I say I will follow Dario's advice, I mean the one that he posted a list of the recommended mod, the agreed and the controversial ones. I surely remember your advice about the silmics vs fm. When I try them, I will give my impression here. But I think mostly are agreeing that the high is a bit 'over'. Its not harsh, or 'bad' its just 'more' than to my liking. I agree as well that the bass is 'less'. it sounds detailed, tight, but 'less'. This is why I would like to try out different caps. This is an excellent amp in any way, btw, what I said is purely my opinion.
What is the critical resistor that's in the signal path definitely should be upgraded?