So some sad truths for the DSP/DF/plug in solution………everything effects phase in this realm and the more you process and beat these signals into submission, the more phase differentials created. While this type of processing or ‘mixing in the box’ workflow allows the modern recording industry to work faster and cheaper (less expensive than outboard gear and giant consoles) the end process is always either a mix or master buss pass through an analog tape machine to smooth it out before printing………a slight ‘blurring’ of the digital artifacts(primarily phase shifts ). There are in fact digital emulations of even this as well and in the photography and video realm, Gaussian type processing in the digital realm works well, but for audio, the two are discernible from one another…..our ear/brain mechanism isn’t fooled and our psyche will often prefer the analog presentation to allow us to accept other accompanying tradeoffs…..hence the long standing love of vinyl.
So be careful with that axe Eugene……sometimes the forest looks better through the trees.….With every swing, there’s a ripple and with every stage of AD/DA and back again another cumulative resonance to phase. With no intention of beating up on your system, you’re design is already riddled with mechanics phase issues…..deep and significant shifts that you’ve managed to correct with time, effort and learning to process into a system capable I’m sure of tremendous output and clarity…….but there’s a point where the pile of wood chips is too much a distraction to the view you’ve intended to create.
So be careful with that axe Eugene……sometimes the forest looks better through the trees.….With every swing, there’s a ripple and with every stage of AD/DA and back again another cumulative resonance to phase. With no intention of beating up on your system, you’re design is already riddled with mechanics phase issues…..deep and significant shifts that you’ve managed to correct with time, effort and learning to process into a system capable I’m sure of tremendous output and clarity…….but there’s a point where the pile of wood chips is too much a distraction to the view you’ve intended to create.
But they don't do a great job not unlike the tape emulations......there's simply no substitute for magnetic tape and heads. Clock sync AD/DA helps but that ain't cheap when done properly. My assistants still do some things the old way because i ask them to.........expand the track and line up the phase shift.....sadly you can't do that on a master with any surgical precision.
On a side note, dynamic digital PeQ is just as destructive to phase.......avoid it if you can......round analog tone controls in a pre amp stage are still as beautiful as ever, i promise!
On a side note, dynamic digital PeQ is just as destructive to phase.......avoid it if you can......round analog tone controls in a pre amp stage are still as beautiful as ever, i promise!
After having spent a lot of time with digital eq, I am starting to see the truth in mayhem’s words. Simply put, music is about timing, and digital processing works against that. With no digital eq, I am able to get as good or close to pure analogue sound from the DAC. And I’ve tried all kinds of solutions. The best is HQPlayer, IMO. It does the least harm with EQ. I’m not even talking about fir filters, which can be pretty bad when implemented improperly, but even iir filters alter the timing, IME. The simplest way to express it would be to say music becomes less enjoyable.
I can't say I agree, nor can I say I disagree. I'm after an analog type of sound in the end, no doubt. Yet all I play is stored on SSD in digital format, from there it goes trough DSP etc and out of the DAC, amp and out towards the speakers. I am picky about the DAC, they do not all sound alike to me. Heck, I needed a pré-amp at one point because my gain structure had changed with an amplifier swap. It seemed that I preferred to use the DAC at a certain input level or it wouldn't sound that convincing to me. These days, I'm still using the same DAC but now with the Scan Speak drivers (higher sensitivity) and that pré-amp is gone again.
I have wrestled with plugins, especially phase linear EQ plugins. They didn't all seem to sound alike. For the longest time I was happy on Windows 7 Pro, with the equalizer plugin PlParEQ.
My FIR processing had become a study of sorts. The less I corrected with it, the better it got, meaning: using the shortest (frequency dependent) window I could get away with. For a long time I've used DRC-FIR for the correction, but always trying to find that ideal mix of linear phase and minimum phase. Eventually I've found my optimum preference. Short (frequency dependent) window minimum phase correction with DRC-FIR plus a manual phase manipulation (with RePhase) on top of that, as all that needs correction/manipulation is what is below Schroeder. And even there, knowing what you can correct and what not is essential. (study what happens in the room)
When I moved to Windows 10 Pro, and at the same time wanted to use 64 bit JRiver, I could start all over again. I couldn't use my trusty PlParEQ anymore, as it was a 32 bit VST program. So I needed a replacement. Eventually, I've found one that satisfies me in Equilibrium. The rest of the process didn't change. It takes me (what seems like) forever to work towards my goals, but it does work.
It doesn't take long in listening to hear what I want to hear. It's either there or not. Many EQ tweaks take me time to judge, but timing? or call it PRaT is recognized (or is it felt) immediately.
What I like about phase correction, being able to get that timing I've shown more than once (at the listener's ear):
It creates a sort of bloom. Probably not a great term for it, but the music simply sounds more "full". I can only ascribe that "full" sound to the lining up of the harmonics. Much like picking up the acoustic guitar, holding it firmly to your body and play super clean notes (takes practice and that sound isn't found all that often on 'girl with guitar' music). It projects the sound into the room, fills the air so to speak. For me, that's what I'm after. Involuntarily you're pretty much forced to move your feet to the music, the music takes over. Key words: balance and timing, headroom is required. Shivers down the spine and hair raising.
I've tried to find logical answers for all of it. For the FIR filters, I was able to find clues that have led me towards my current way of doing things. But for the equalizers? I tried more than one, yet only a handful remained in use. Right now, just one: Equilibrium. Don't need to look further.
But I cannot (yet) find a clue as to why, because when I inspect IR's made with say: Fabfilter Pro Q2 vs Equilibrium, I see no difference that I can point at. Yet, I prefer Equilibrium (when using linear phase mode).
If this all sounds a bit 'whooly', far fetched or audiophile like, I apologize. But hey, this is what I've encountered so far. These days my son, who has no interest often is used by me for a sanity check. He has no interest in the technical side, but speaks his mind if he likes what he hears. I try not to tell him if or what I've done, just let him take control over the music library and let him do his thing. If it's right, one usually hears it anywhere in the room. If it's wrong, and gets on my nerves after a while, I'll feel it in my body, cramping up etc.
I'm not afraid of DSP though, as it has given me lots of joy.
I'm gonna close this window now and listen to some tunes...
I have wrestled with plugins, especially phase linear EQ plugins. They didn't all seem to sound alike. For the longest time I was happy on Windows 7 Pro, with the equalizer plugin PlParEQ.
My FIR processing had become a study of sorts. The less I corrected with it, the better it got, meaning: using the shortest (frequency dependent) window I could get away with. For a long time I've used DRC-FIR for the correction, but always trying to find that ideal mix of linear phase and minimum phase. Eventually I've found my optimum preference. Short (frequency dependent) window minimum phase correction with DRC-FIR plus a manual phase manipulation (with RePhase) on top of that, as all that needs correction/manipulation is what is below Schroeder. And even there, knowing what you can correct and what not is essential. (study what happens in the room)
When I moved to Windows 10 Pro, and at the same time wanted to use 64 bit JRiver, I could start all over again. I couldn't use my trusty PlParEQ anymore, as it was a 32 bit VST program. So I needed a replacement. Eventually, I've found one that satisfies me in Equilibrium. The rest of the process didn't change. It takes me (what seems like) forever to work towards my goals, but it does work.
It doesn't take long in listening to hear what I want to hear. It's either there or not. Many EQ tweaks take me time to judge, but timing? or call it PRaT is recognized (or is it felt) immediately.
What I like about phase correction, being able to get that timing I've shown more than once (at the listener's ear):
It creates a sort of bloom. Probably not a great term for it, but the music simply sounds more "full". I can only ascribe that "full" sound to the lining up of the harmonics. Much like picking up the acoustic guitar, holding it firmly to your body and play super clean notes (takes practice and that sound isn't found all that often on 'girl with guitar' music). It projects the sound into the room, fills the air so to speak. For me, that's what I'm after. Involuntarily you're pretty much forced to move your feet to the music, the music takes over. Key words: balance and timing, headroom is required. Shivers down the spine and hair raising.
I've tried to find logical answers for all of it. For the FIR filters, I was able to find clues that have led me towards my current way of doing things. But for the equalizers? I tried more than one, yet only a handful remained in use. Right now, just one: Equilibrium. Don't need to look further.
But I cannot (yet) find a clue as to why, because when I inspect IR's made with say: Fabfilter Pro Q2 vs Equilibrium, I see no difference that I can point at. Yet, I prefer Equilibrium (when using linear phase mode).
If this all sounds a bit 'whooly', far fetched or audiophile like, I apologize. But hey, this is what I've encountered so far. These days my son, who has no interest often is used by me for a sanity check. He has no interest in the technical side, but speaks his mind if he likes what he hears. I try not to tell him if or what I've done, just let him take control over the music library and let him do his thing. If it's right, one usually hears it anywhere in the room. If it's wrong, and gets on my nerves after a while, I'll feel it in my body, cramping up etc.
I'm not afraid of DSP though, as it has given me lots of joy.
I'm gonna close this window now and listen to some tunes...
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In fact, one of my favorite 'girl with guitar' 'like' songs is a song by an old man. Treetop Flyer by Steven Stills. I just love it how the sound of that guitar bounces off from the other side wall to create a believable space. Don't care if it's real or not, as long as it feels real. Makes me think of GM's often used phrase: Is it live or is it Memorex. that's kind of the goal here, isn't it? At least for me it is.
Dynamic eQ has an adjustable threshold setting much like a compressor........and used often before compression which allows for faster attack but retaining transients..........very useful in the recording, mixing and mastering stages.Digital PeQ - OK, but what is a "dynamic digital PeQ"?
Analog and digital PEQ effects phase equally.
I think that if someone like analog "PEQ" better, its because they come with a doze of "sugar"...
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no.....but they're not linear phase either.....and linear phase eqs have a time shift and tend to flatten DR due to the headroom limitations which are real time dependent......that's where dynamic eQ before helps.
Thanks again for your recomendation! In fact the guy looks a little bit like a german polititian from bavaria: Anton Hofreiter
EDIT: put on the one song and now the whole album is playing. Right up my alley
EDIT2: definitely for me the album has some very strong "Framption Comes Alive II" - vibes! me likey
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In a recording environment any decent plugin should report delay which will be compensated for by the DAW.
And how should they meaningfully limit DR when operating in 32 bit float mode or even more resolution?
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I'm education myself as I listen... Obviously the album is a copy of a live recording for a radio station. I can clearly hear some hiss from the live audio chain. Do I care that we have +N ~ -60 to -70dB (guesstimated)? No I don't. Obviously this album had very little (zero?) multitrack postprocessing. Does not kill any of the ambience mikes through the use noise gates. Just a guess. If so, kudos to the man or woman riding the faders this evening!!! Still I'm strongly reminded of the style of Framton's second live album.
Do you have a lineup of musicians? Could not find anything about it.
Do you have a lineup of musicians? Could not find anything about it.