On to the tonality battle...
I looked up my old settings (of which I was very pleased, tonally) and adjusted some things in this new processing setup to mimic the old ones. There were only small changes, but over a broad spectrum like 300-800 Hz. I'm still amazed how big the perceived tonal changes are of a small edit like that.
It points out just how important the "mastering job" is in audio. Having heard different masterings of the same songs in multiple cases it makes "getting it right" very difficult.
Sure, on superficial listening they sound about the same. But in imaging and perception even the smallest change can have consequences.
I see people worry about a dip here and peak there (and they should, especially the peaks), and how that sounds, but seldom you read how even tiny level changes in a broader FR spectrum can make an equally big change in perception.
It makes me glad I chose this particular route. Even though there is way to much I can adjust, I CAN adjust it. Way better than to rely on the speaker to do a good enough job by itself.
The rewards are huge, so I'll be spending a lot more time listening, enjoying and trying all kinds of small changes, one at a time.
The first hint to the above was when Mr. Bob Katz said as much on a thread I followed long ago (a thread about Audiolense DSP, he later went with Acourate).
While often people state: "you can't hear a "X" change in dB", you can! Even more so if it's a change over a larger/broader FR spectrum/area.
My goal? Getting lost in the music. It's working!
Late edit: I did save these current test settings to a new JRiver Zone to save them, I don't want to mess up something like this!
I looked up my old settings (of which I was very pleased, tonally) and adjusted some things in this new processing setup to mimic the old ones. There were only small changes, but over a broad spectrum like 300-800 Hz. I'm still amazed how big the perceived tonal changes are of a small edit like that.
It points out just how important the "mastering job" is in audio. Having heard different masterings of the same songs in multiple cases it makes "getting it right" very difficult.
Sure, on superficial listening they sound about the same. But in imaging and perception even the smallest change can have consequences.
I see people worry about a dip here and peak there (and they should, especially the peaks), and how that sounds, but seldom you read how even tiny level changes in a broader FR spectrum can make an equally big change in perception.
It makes me glad I chose this particular route. Even though there is way to much I can adjust, I CAN adjust it. Way better than to rely on the speaker to do a good enough job by itself.
The rewards are huge, so I'll be spending a lot more time listening, enjoying and trying all kinds of small changes, one at a time.
The first hint to the above was when Mr. Bob Katz said as much on a thread I followed long ago (a thread about Audiolense DSP, he later went with Acourate).
While often people state: "you can't hear a "X" change in dB", you can! Even more so if it's a change over a larger/broader FR spectrum/area.
My goal? Getting lost in the music. It's working!
Late edit: I did save these current test settings to a new JRiver Zone to save them, I don't want to mess up something like this!
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Of coarse it is, but with 1000 ways to control it all, I'd be crazy not to try out a few of those possibilities! What IS working is the more 3D stage. Especially but not limited to the phantom center. Just like the phase shuffler got me, but that one didn't work out as well in the end. I found no way to get tonality back in check with that one.
I did save the settings I have so far for a reason. It's already working.
The changes I am making would easily fall in a +3 to -3 dB window. I'm basically just dialing in my room curve and left/center/right balance.
It just takes a whole lot of different recordings to convince me I got it right.
Let's just say this: if I mount a new wing on my car, and it's working, why couldn't/shouldn't I re-adjust the shocks.
I did save the settings I have so far for a reason. It's already working.
The changes I am making would easily fall in a +3 to -3 dB window. I'm basically just dialing in my room curve and left/center/right balance.
It just takes a whole lot of different recordings to convince me I got it right.
Let's just say this: if I mount a new wing on my car, and it's working, why couldn't/shouldn't I re-adjust the shocks.
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When You say "broad", are You referring to increasing or decreasing a "broad" range of frequencies, say 300 - 800 Hz 1 dB (up or down) at a Q curve of about 2 (maybe even 1)?
I was taught to raise "broad" and cut "narrow". With all the tweaks You have done on this journey, have You found many of these former "teachings" valid?
I got to come back to this, when I have more time, as I have some things I would like to share on this topic. Hopefully I can come back to this in a timely manor. I work too much.
I was taught to raise "broad" and cut "narrow". With all the tweaks You have done on this journey, have You found many of these former "teachings" valid?
I got to come back to this, when I have more time, as I have some things I would like to share on this topic. Hopefully I can come back to this in a timely manor. I work too much.
That's about it, but the Q is around 0.6 actually. Deviating form a pure flat line (well declining from low to high). Over such a wide area even lower amounts than 1 dB stand out.
This is mid/side EQ to (re)balance the left/center/right I'm talking about.
If you have one speaker right in front of you, flat FR would be my advice. But in stereo you can do better (I.M.H.O.).
This is mid/side EQ to (re)balance the left/center/right I'm talking about.
If you have one speaker right in front of you, flat FR would be my advice. But in stereo you can do better (I.M.H.O.).
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No center, mid/side processing. Just a Stereo DAC, a Musical Fidelity M1.
The whole "Fixing the Phantom Center" thread started my search into mid/side processing and for a while mid/side EQ seemed a good answer to tonally balance panned sounds vs (phantom) center sounds.
Until the phase shuffler convinced me there was more to be had. So now I run a form of cross talk canceling and I'm rebalancing tonal differences.
More info here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-237.html#post4759810
And here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-238.html#post4760587
The whole "Fixing the Phantom Center" thread started my search into mid/side processing and for a while mid/side EQ seemed a good answer to tonally balance panned sounds vs (phantom) center sounds.
Until the phase shuffler convinced me there was more to be had. So now I run a form of cross talk canceling and I'm rebalancing tonal differences.
More info here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-237.html#post4759810
And here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array-238.html#post4760587
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I haven't changed anything yet since my last session. Getting my previous tonal balance back was enough to just enjoy this for a while.
Still have the cross talk cancelation like I described. In other words, very pleased with my current sound.
On other (related) news... I get to do experiments with sound/audio at work.
I have a couple of near field monitor speakers, curtsey of Jan Fekkes. I'll get to do experiments both at home and at work, how cool is that! Can't promise any results, as at work I'll be concentrating on the benefits for my students, rather than my own, but I think with these two different setups I get to see just how different the cross talk is between my living room setup and a near field setup in a larger room.
I have my "own" classroom available for these experiments. A nice big room, very different from my own living room.
Good times! Maybe we learn something new... (at least new to us)
One thing I'm getting more and more convinced about. That cross talk between stereo speakers and our ears is very real. And probably very different between speaker types, like Horns, direct radiators, open baffle, the choosen setup etc...
But we shouldn't deny it.
Still have the cross talk cancelation like I described. In other words, very pleased with my current sound.
On other (related) news... I get to do experiments with sound/audio at work.
I have a couple of near field monitor speakers, curtsey of Jan Fekkes. I'll get to do experiments both at home and at work, how cool is that! Can't promise any results, as at work I'll be concentrating on the benefits for my students, rather than my own, but I think with these two different setups I get to see just how different the cross talk is between my living room setup and a near field setup in a larger room.
I have my "own" classroom available for these experiments. A nice big room, very different from my own living room.
Good times! Maybe we learn something new... (at least new to us)
One thing I'm getting more and more convinced about. That cross talk between stereo speakers and our ears is very real. And probably very different between speaker types, like Horns, direct radiators, open baffle, the choosen setup etc...
But we shouldn't deny it.
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+1 I found quite unexpectedly the impact that having a separate monoblock amplifier for each channel is on the sound quality. Simply by splitting off the PSU on my class AB amps for monoblock operation, I immediately noticed a substantial (I mean as in "wow this is amazing!") improvement. It is immediate and noticeable. Very cheap if you already have amp modules that are single channel. Just get separate PSU's so that the crosstalk via the PSU rails is eliminated and the soundstage just opens up to a new level. Very worthwhile upgrade to any sound system if you have existing mono amp boards already. One of the biggest bang for the buck upgrades possible.
I don't think that's what he was referring to, but cool. The crosstalk specs on audio products are usually among the worst, so that makes sense! I wonder if it would be worth doing with the TAS5630 or 5613 chip amps that I use...
Quick question to this thread since it's the cornucopia of this style of line array information in these forums. After a long time, I'll make speakers for myself this winter. The room dimensions are just 3130mm to 3700mm. Speakers would be on the short wall corners with a table and window between them, listening position would be around 2,5m from front wall.
Someone mentioned in some LA thread that the listening position distance should be at least 1,5-2x the height of the line arrays. I think wesayso mentioned in this thread that for LA to work properly, it would need to be at least 90% of the room height. This would mean at least 2,4m tall line arrays for me, which would indicate that my listening position is too close for them to function without major HF losses.
So the big question is, should I bother with corner line arrays in such a small room, or just start looking at other options.
Someone mentioned in some LA thread that the listening position distance should be at least 1,5-2x the height of the line arrays. I think wesayso mentioned in this thread that for LA to work properly, it would need to be at least 90% of the room height. This would mean at least 2,4m tall line arrays for me, which would indicate that my listening position is too close for them to function without major HF losses.
So the big question is, should I bother with corner line arrays in such a small room, or just start looking at other options.
For the height I'd recommend a height of about 70% (or more) of the actual room height.
My room is 4.30 meter from the wall behind the arrays to the opposite wall. Not that far off from yours.
While moving further back from the arrays does have advantages by moving the comb pattern up in frequency I'd say a 2.5 meter listening distance should still work. My arrays are half a meter out from the back wall (the baffle to wall), on one side I have a close side wall that needed damping. There's no damping on the wall behind the speakers in my case.
I didn't do corner arrays. Are you planning to put them in the corner? I guess you have seen/read ra7's thread on his corner arrays? Do you plan to run them full range (if you do decide to go with arrays)?
In my opinion it will be important to treat (at least part of) the wall behind the listening position.
Look at ra7's thread that shows the walls need to be continuous to make the corner position work out. Right now I believe he has a "sort of" horn extension which worked better than using the real corners due to suffering from reflections of irregularities on those walls. Maybe he will chime in.
My room is 4.30 meter from the wall behind the arrays to the opposite wall. Not that far off from yours.
While moving further back from the arrays does have advantages by moving the comb pattern up in frequency I'd say a 2.5 meter listening distance should still work. My arrays are half a meter out from the back wall (the baffle to wall), on one side I have a close side wall that needed damping. There's no damping on the wall behind the speakers in my case.
I didn't do corner arrays. Are you planning to put them in the corner? I guess you have seen/read ra7's thread on his corner arrays? Do you plan to run them full range (if you do decide to go with arrays)?
In my opinion it will be important to treat (at least part of) the wall behind the listening position.
Look at ra7's thread that shows the walls need to be continuous to make the corner position work out. Right now I believe he has a "sort of" horn extension which worked better than using the real corners due to suffering from reflections of irregularities on those walls. Maybe he will chime in.
Well, it's still 1m more in your case, which could make a critical difference. Also if I remember correctly, your listening position is on the back wall, which would still mean you have about 1.5x array lenght to listening position, likely resulting in less combing and higher HF levels.
I've tried to read almost all info I can on line arrays that I've found They look very attractive in my opinion, and would love to have a pair of towers in my room, but I first need to decide if they are viable option or not. Corner array is something I'm looking for at the moment, but I have some free space to play with in case I decide to make normal arrays or other speakers.
Anyhow, I think I'll open a new thread for this, as it's going to be my "ultimate speaker" for a long time
I've tried to read almost all info I can on line arrays that I've found
They look very attractive in my opinion, and would love to have a pair of towers in my room, but I first need to decide if they are viable option or not. Corner array is something I'm looking for at the moment, but I have some free space to play with in case I decide to make normal arrays or other speakers.Anyhow, I think I'll open a new thread for this, as it's going to be my "ultimate speaker" for a long time
Synergy horns might be a very good sound wise, but they are too large for the available space & harmony of my marriage. I live in an apartment building, so I doubt I need 120db of power from the horns to harass the neighbours either
Anyhow, started a new thread so we can consider the options in there.
Anyhow, started a new thread so we can consider the options in there.
I recently started a condensed version of this thread on JRiver. It's still very much a "work in progress", and it lacks the detail I shared here. I will try to move to JRiver specific subjects over there but had to do an intro.
I've put a link into the first post of this thread and I'll add it here for convenience: Why I love JRiver, a tale of taming my Line Arrays
As this thread grows and grows, I guess it's getting harder to wade trough it all. Maybe the above will help to get an idea of the things I've done so far.
I've put a link into the first post of this thread and I'll add it here for convenience: Why I love JRiver, a tale of taming my Line Arrays
As this thread grows and grows, I guess it's getting harder to wade trough it all. Maybe the above will help to get an idea of the things I've done so far.