carlosfm said:
Really Carlos, now that is petty.
I don't have a dog in that fight. I have not sold anything for a profit and I really doubt I ever will. It costs me more to develop and produce boards than I am ever likely to make. I only take money to cover the costs.
I make Mauro's design available to DIYers because they want it, and it is popular because it is actually something innovative. It's not my design, though I do like it. I can't take any credit for it, nor would I. So please stop trying to assciate me with it alone, I am certianly much more broad in my thinking than that.I have not hyped it, though everyone who has tried it is enthusiatic about Mauro's MyREF design.
It would be just as easy or perhaps easier to sell ordinary little chipamps with snubbed power supplies. Heaven forbid!
But I am not really in this for commercial reasons. I am in it for fun.Your trying to disparage me because I provide something to DIYers is rather silly and honestly(well I hope) beneath you. I am simply another DIYer who likes to see other people able to do what I do.
There is no shame in providing what my friends want. I really don't understand your angst.
And BTW which snubberized PS have I not tested?
How do you know what I have tested?
As you like to say. You don't know me, you don't know what I do.
You also seem to think I have a closed mind. Wrong. It is wide open, it is just that I am at an impass with the facts. There just don't seem to be any that support your theory.
Whenever someone asks you for facts you attack, that is the posture of a man on the defensive. Well rest assured, you have nothing to defend yourself from. I am on your side.
Cheers!
Russ
It's been a while since I have learned that strictly engineer's way of thinking may (or may not!) result with technically perfect devices, but sometimes engineers do not allow another point of view, which is in my opinion at this particular hobby very important, and that would be - improvisation.
Music is a form of art, and the best thing in art is it's imperfection. Therefore i suggest - free your mind, sometimes forget those strange peaks or oscillations, because our brain prefers imperfect informations. If the music is presented perfect, without any disformations, it is somehow naked and without soul.
There might be an explanation why we have Carlos at one side, and Per Anders and the other at the other side. You all have right, more or less. You all just have to allow another point of view.
While constructing some electronic device we need engineers and their theoretical knowledge because we need circuit which will be stable and will work well within it's boundaries. On the other side we also need to experiment with different approaches and LISTEN, because we are not building just any electronic device, but an electronic device which should be capable to feed our brain and ears with music (art).
In short form, we need measurements as guides and orientation, but we also need to try, experiment and improvise. I have learned a lot from engineers (and still learning), and I have a big respect to them, but sometimes I also want to try a different approach.
Sorry for the long post, but I think that you're fighting without reason. You should work together.
Music is a form of art, and the best thing in art is it's imperfection. Therefore i suggest - free your mind, sometimes forget those strange peaks or oscillations, because our brain prefers imperfect informations. If the music is presented perfect, without any disformations, it is somehow naked and without soul.
There might be an explanation why we have Carlos at one side, and Per Anders and the other at the other side. You all have right, more or less. You all just have to allow another point of view.
While constructing some electronic device we need engineers and their theoretical knowledge because we need circuit which will be stable and will work well within it's boundaries. On the other side we also need to experiment with different approaches and LISTEN, because we are not building just any electronic device, but an electronic device which should be capable to feed our brain and ears with music (art).
In short form, we need measurements as guides and orientation, but we also need to try, experiment and improvise. I have learned a lot from engineers (and still learning), and I have a big respect to them, but sometimes I also want to try a different approach.
Sorry for the long post, but I think that you're fighting without reason. You should work together.
Russ White said:
See what happens?
You have the facts, you have the reason.
Great.
What facts?
Nevermind, this is useless and endless.
You and the gang are right, I'm crazy.
And who follows me is crazy too.
Forget that I exist.
Forget that I shared this snubber thing, ok?
Nobody would be discussing this now.
I don't need this, you guys play at your will.
I'll guess we won't come any further. My snubber guide lines stands and noone has objected. The conclusion is:
We use a snubber to attenuate a resonance peak in analog applications and we use it in switching applications when we want to protect the switching device and there it is essential.
Carlos achieves great effects in the audioband, but noone can explain this, neither himself nor anybody else.
Some other people also achieve positive experiences.
As a test I have implemented it here but I have used 0805 resistors, real tight and directly down to the groundplane.
We use a snubber to attenuate a resonance peak in analog applications and we use it in switching applications when we want to protect the switching device and there it is essential.
Carlos achieves great effects in the audioband, but noone can explain this, neither himself nor anybody else.
Some other people also achieve positive experiences.
As a test I have implemented it here but I have used 0805 resistors, real tight and directly down to the groundplane.
Well, I am not in this forum for such a long time, but I have read a lot and made my thoughts. I must say that I find it dangerous business, to offend those who share their designs openly with the community as you do with Carlos. He has shown you the results of his extended listening tests, provides additional comments and help to anybody who asks, and I think that this should be considered a worthwile offer of him. Offending those people has the risk that they stop sharing their designs.
Carlos has always said that his PSU (and other designs) is the result of extensive trial and listening procedures. He has never stated that he has made scientific research involving measurements, calculations and the like. He says no more than that the result works. And that should be ok!!! What I find strange is that some people here think that sharing of a desing automatically means that the designer is responsible for the provision of detailed scientific explanations of why it works. I dont agree with this point at all. If someone is interested in such an explanation, he has to take of that by himself.
One more word on the manners. Per Anders, I agree with Carlos that you are frequently jumping into discussions in a rather offending way. Frequently you are strongly criticizing the way people present their developments or thoughts etc. (Remember e.g. your Kwak Clock thread !). Frequently you are inadequately possessive (for example claiming the invention of surface mount designs in GCs or even the word "snubberized" (see your last attachment)). All in all your strong seeking for recognition is expressed by opposition against those who productively contribute to this forum and I can understand very well that these people become very upset.
Carlos has always said that his PSU (and other designs) is the result of extensive trial and listening procedures. He has never stated that he has made scientific research involving measurements, calculations and the like. He says no more than that the result works. And that should be ok!!! What I find strange is that some people here think that sharing of a desing automatically means that the designer is responsible for the provision of detailed scientific explanations of why it works. I dont agree with this point at all. If someone is interested in such an explanation, he has to take of that by himself.
One more word on the manners. Per Anders, I agree with Carlos that you are frequently jumping into discussions in a rather offending way. Frequently you are strongly criticizing the way people present their developments or thoughts etc. (Remember e.g. your Kwak Clock thread !). Frequently you are inadequately possessive (for example claiming the invention of surface mount designs in GCs or even the word "snubberized" (see your last attachment)). All in all your strong seeking for recognition is expressed by opposition against those who productively contribute to this forum and I can understand very well that these people become very upset.
Mick_F said:
Hi Mick,
IMHO you really need to go back years to make a proper judgement. This kind of heated discussions have been going with some of these players and some different players for a long time and there is really no one that is right and therfore no one that is wrong. When you get a few people together with strong convictions and personalities a little friction will occur. It proves strength of conviction. It keeps everyone on their toes. It's human nature, enjoy it.
I, on the other hand would back off from direct conflict, I don't need the last word, but hey that's me.
Regards
Having a debate isn't offending, not accordning to me.Mick_F said:
The question here was how this snubber resistor had a major impact in the audio bandwidth when I think everybody else have the 1-10 MHz range in mind, which also both calculations, simulations and maesurements indicate. My question was "how come", nothing to get offended for.
Actually he has. If I remember correctly he stated that he had made calculations at least.Mick_F said:
My question then was just why discussing something in public you don't want to share in public. Later Elso published the schematics so the initial question wasn't valid after some posts.Mick_F said:
If someone was before me making a SMD Gainclone, I don't mind to change it to the second SMD Gainclone in the world but such claims aren't very important to me. If someone already has invented snubberize used in this sense may he be the one who invented this, not either very important.Mick_F said:
I'll guess noone else has any opinions about snubbers and where they should be used and how they should be designed so I'll guess the subject is closed for now. I have implemented it in my way and noone has any objections. If there is I'm listening and I won't be offended if it turns out that I'm wrong.
I'm just mentioning that I publish everything of my work except for one thing. With this done I risk to have my work copied which has been done but if I want to avoid that I'll just have to have my stuff "non-public".
peranders said:
Indeed, I do.
But I have no interest in revealing that, and one of the reasons is YOU.
You specialize in stealing others' work, always searching for a possibility to make it yours, and to make a new board to sell.
Jung regulator boards are a fine example, and Mick's quote (on the end of his post) from your site is another.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=737757#post737757
You have been very very interested on this since the beginning. I know why.
And you also left questions to answer, because you never admited that the snubber improved your 'industrial SMD Gainclone', as you called it.
Actually, you claimed it to be the first SMD chipamp (as if Linn doesn't make it for years
), and even better, the best chipamp ever. (!)Well, I did help some privately to achieve decent results with your amp. They bought it and didn't like the results.
Many changes were needed, and I'm not only talking about snubbers on the PSU.
You make things in a way that you think are technically correct, but you always forget the audio performance part.
Sometimes one thing is not compatible with the other.
Like using a servo on a (single chip) inverted topology, when you can very easily control DC-offset with less (or no) impact.
We have different priorities and different goals.
One thing I can assure you: any audio gear must be made with one final goal in mind: audio performance.
If this is difficult to understand, I throw the towel and quit, it's useless.
Sure Carlos, I know which that person was but I didn't know that you actually has listened to my Gainlcone because you surely must have listened to it in order what to tweak? Yes? OK. "he" wasn't too pleased but everyone else were... so far, so improvements can surely be done but not major one.
Are you sure that Linn has made a Gainclone or a LM3886 amp? Anyway I ment SMD DIY Gainclone. Commercial simlilar amps are lot's of I'll believe because National made this IC for it.
I use DC servo because I felt for it and an AD8620 is pretty good as DC servo, don't you think? If you have DC servo you reach predictability and you will have output offset less than 80 uV always! 60-80 uV isn't needed when 50-100 mV is enough but why settle for this when you can have it lower?
Are you sure that Linn has made a Gainclone or a LM3886 amp? Anyway I ment SMD DIY Gainclone. Commercial simlilar amps are lot's of I'll believe because National made this IC for it.
I use DC servo because I felt for it and an AD8620 is pretty good as DC servo, don't you think? If you have DC servo you reach predictability and you will have output offset less than 80 uV always! 60-80 uV isn't needed when 50-100 mV is enough but why settle for this when you can have it lower?
peranders said:
No, I don't think.
I prefer to avoid servos.
You know, your amp in the final had ~1mv. WITHOUT the servo.
That's your problem, you bother with details of no importance, never thinking on the final audio result.
I'm not going to point all the mods that were done, why bother? I'm not making your work here.
Btw, if Linn doesn't do for you because they use TDA chips, then take Jeff Rowland.
PS: You still run away from my question, as always.
Is the snubber an improvement for that amp?
Why do you bother so much about this?
Why do you put your name in the middle of this thing?
Answers, answers...
Still we have here reports about pretty high offsets now and then. It's not a big problem, just change the IC but I want similiar performance between units. It's easy to disconnect the servo if you happen not to like.carlosfm said:
You didn't answer if you actually have listened to my amp... don't have to answer.
Can't say, not sharp enough ears for that. It's possible that it make a bigger difference with your setup without any real pcb's. You are using P2P or Vero board I'll believe?carlosfm said:
peranders said:
No, I just have the feedback from those I helped.
But as your PSU goes, I've done that and I know the results.
peranders said:
I never made P2P.
I made some amps on veroboard, and I made my PCBs.
I'm using PCBs.
You are not going to say again that a badly designed amp is good because it has a flashy green SMD PCB, are you?
Oh, one more question: how can I avoid you?
I was just answering a member's question on my thread.
If I can't do that without a virus steppin' in, moderators please close all my threads.
Thanks.
Carlos and Peranders, it may be best to cool off for a short time so that you can keep the discussion to the issues and not to personalities and emotions. Please refrain from posting on this thread for the next two days. Violation of this directive will result in SinBinning.
R1, R2, R3 & R4
Dear Carlos and Friends,
I am now happily making 6 unregulated Power Supplies for my Orion speaker project (using your suggestions of total capacitances, Carlos. Many thanks for the advice).
There was lots of discussion earlier about the nature and value of the snubber resistors, but I am wondering about the type of the resistors around the 4700uF capacitors (R1 - 4). I have easy access to those (ugly) ceramic-looking 5W resistors, but I think that these are Wire Wound. Are these OK, or should I be purchasing some 2 and 3 watt carbon resistors for these positions?
Regards,
George.
Dear Carlos and Friends,
I am now happily making 6 unregulated Power Supplies for my Orion speaker project (using your suggestions of total capacitances, Carlos. Many thanks for the advice).
There was lots of discussion earlier about the nature and value of the snubber resistors, but I am wondering about the type of the resistors around the 4700uF capacitors (R1 - 4). I have easy access to those (ugly) ceramic-looking 5W resistors, but I think that these are Wire Wound. Are these OK, or should I be purchasing some 2 and 3 watt carbon resistors for these positions?
Regards,
George.
I dont agree. Indeed additional L wont make a problem for the line resistors R3 and R4. For the snubber resistors R5 and R6, on the other hand, I think it is more critical. The network has proven to be very sensitive to small variations in R and C and hence may be also very sensitive concerning an extra L. The values used for R and C are very small, and hence the addition of some L may lead to a small RLC serial oscillator.
Mick
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