Hi Pano
This is actually a very useful submission. As one of many old veteran making all the stuff we all would like to make a horn speaker that will perform to the highest standard now available at a reasonable price.
Having said that the Ariel replacement project is just great and I am following that and lot of other threads and my 50 years of hifi experience.
A number of threads should end up more or less at the same place, If not then it probably means that maybe one or two or none of these threads gets there.
The Arial and its replacement are for triode or valve amps in general especially of low output if DHT making it unique compared to a SS or valve blockbuster.
But to use a Behringer DCX device that I have heard others acclaim makes good sense to me.
I have asked JMLC to confirm suppliers of genuine quality JMLC alternatives to Azura which are pricey but good. There are others for less than half the price Stereolab.de and others. Marco henrys sounded good but I cannot get any info about availability
This was my thought. To boil it down If you have virtually any of the older quality 2 way speakers including the Peaveys with the CH1 or CH2 horn, All of the Altecs, All of the EV 2 ways from 70s a great deal of the older PA gear and nearly all of the large horn 2 way hifi stuff, and you are looking for a speaker without amplitude (dynamic compression) distortion. ( Yeah as a matter if fact let's make a pact and call this what it is, *amplitude distortion*, insidious and included in all direct radiation speakers) The addition of modern DSP active crossovers will bring these Units to something that approaches a state of the art speaker. Let's face it, they can't even make this stuff anymore without a huge price tag, and all of those radial form speakers that only need proper crossovers EQ and time alignment are sitting around abandoned in a garage while some $2000 Bo*e or some other direct radiating pos " hifi" speakers that can not in any fashion touch them with modern dsp has the cat bird seat in the captains house.
B.S., I call big shining BS. Stop amplitude distortion, even if it "tolerable" once you have sweet potato pie you won't be eating any more pumpkin pie. Happy thanksgiving!
B.S., I call big shining BS. Stop amplitude distortion, even if it "tolerable" once you have sweet potato pie you won't be eating any more pumpkin pie. Happy thanksgiving!
No the dirty secret is that all of the boxes have already been checked and we need to understand that modern DSP
plus speaker tech from decades ago renders the best possible experience, you get most of the bennies of a point source when those big horns and drivers cover 500 to 18k with and aren't compressing the crap out of your signal. The best is available to all now, sitting around in a shed. That'd the secret.
plus speaker tech from decades ago renders the best possible experience, you get most of the bennies of a point source when those big horns and drivers cover 500 to 18k with and aren't compressing the crap out of your signal. The best is available to all now, sitting around in a shed. That'd the secret.
Pete - I understood your point from the beginning. Many just aren't yet that aware of what a good horn/waveguide system can do, but it is finally becoming accepted. Ten years ago when I started the design of the Summa I don't think that many would have taken that approach to a first class audiophile system. Around here, these days, it seems to be taken for granted.
And yes, DSP has made it all so easy. When I had to do the passive network for the first Summa it was a daunting task that took all my knowledge of speakers, electronics and software to master. Today, with DSP and the software that they provide its almost child's play.
I think that you are starting to figure that out and it seems like finding the secret to someone's magic trick. All magic is like that - its easy once you see how its done. It was not so easy when there was no one showing you how to do it.
And yes, DSP has made it all so easy. When I had to do the passive network for the first Summa it was a daunting task that took all my knowledge of speakers, electronics and software to master. Today, with DSP and the software that they provide its almost child's play.
I think that you are starting to figure that out and it seems like finding the secret to someone's magic trick. All magic is like that - its easy once you see how its done. It was not so easy when there was no one showing you how to do it.
Imo, the dirty little secret is that the speaker makers all know this and don't talk about it, mislead, smoke, mirrors, bullcrap. Sure there are a ton of designs but every damn on of them is terminally flawed unless it is a horn speaker. If you have amplitude distortion or assaults from multi directions you simply have a crap speaker no matter what you paid for it.
Don't get carried away now, you and I both know we have been doing this in the field with a 19" rack of Rane and Symetrix parametrics, crossover and delay lines since the 80s. I have commented that your speakers were PA speakers for the home, but that is a good thing. I know a lot of musicians that have A7s 19s, Community, JBL, EAW, ETC. sitting in the same spot in the living room since the 70s. What we did not have is the instruments to refine this and the impetus. I commend you for getting people to understand this a big yes.
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I have only ever had Pro speakers in my listening rooms. That said most of the early ones were pretty bad. Take the JBL 4430's that I had for ages. Not bad, but when compared to the more modern designs were rated very low. So yes the idea is the same, but the implementation is much different.
Hi Earl,
I'm having some difficulty sourcing suitably large blocks of foam to cut a single piece to fill the horn. Is this essential, or will similar results be possible by, say, using a couple of 2" thick layers? (layer perpendicular to horn axis)
I was thinking of using double-sided sticky pads to hold the foam in place, but if anyone has any better ideas, I'd happily go with that instead.
TIA
Chris
I'm having some difficulty sourcing suitably large blocks of foam to cut a single piece to fill the horn. Is this essential, or will similar results be possible by, say, using a couple of 2" thick layers? (layer perpendicular to horn axis)
I was thinking of using double-sided sticky pads to hold the foam in place, but if anyone has any better ideas, I'd happily go with that instead.
TIA
Chris
Well said.Puh-leeeze
The incredible new magic of compression drivers that are for all intents and purposes We555's from the what the 30s?, the incredible new magic of getting as much of the sound out of one point so source as possible from what the 40s?, the incredible new magic that sound is round from what the 1800s? the incredible new knowledge that everyone in the room needs to hear all of the speaker? Lets be honest here gentlemen, we are talking about measuring instruments and computers, making it possible to take just about any large 2 way horn that's based on "round" and has reasonable dispersion and make it just about as good as anything you can buy now. And that is the point of this posting, not to detract from anything or anyone else, just point out that we already had this, sans the DSP and measuring gear, and now they are dirt cheap. Recycle those 2 way speakers with big round horns, direct radiators are NOT going to beat an them when coupled with DSP, a PC etc, and half a brain.
The incredible new magic of compression drivers that are for all intents and purposes We555's from the what the 30s?, the incredible new magic of getting as much of the sound out of one point so source as possible from what the 40s?, the incredible new magic that sound is round from what the 1800s? the incredible new knowledge that everyone in the room needs to hear all of the speaker? Lets be honest here gentlemen, we are talking about measuring instruments and computers, making it possible to take just about any large 2 way horn that's based on "round" and has reasonable dispersion and make it just about as good as anything you can buy now. And that is the point of this posting, not to detract from anything or anyone else, just point out that we already had this, sans the DSP and measuring gear, and now they are dirt cheap. Recycle those 2 way speakers with big round horns, direct radiators are NOT going to beat an them when coupled with DSP, a PC etc, and half a brain.
Horn too small and no DSP so lumpy, but still sounded pretty damn good compared to most of the competition.
I think its the rant of someone who has read far too much ad copy from speaker guys constantly re-inventing the same damn thing and in most cases losing as much ground as gained. Of course my apparent insanity of a self estimated 18.3 % should also be factored in as well as a safety margin
Pete, what kind of rant is this?
It is the same with the drivers. This is what can be so good with the military and space. They make the best they can. If MIT decided to make best woofer tweeter or lets call it sound transducer it would bear very little comparison with what is out there. Who ever thought that we could have modern cars like the Mc Laren and others that bear no comparison.
Electrostatic speakers are expensive but they are so simple. All drivers are benignly simple and made to a standard that is 'sufficient' .
But why do the manufacturers dumb it down even more, then offer a range of drivers with progressively more improvements for exponential money. They can start with a simple ceramic magnet and add steel pole pieces and frame punched out of a steel sheet, and copper wire wound on a toilet roll, pushing a cone made from a corn flake packet .
They charge a price forthe basic unit. They offer an improved one with a bigger magnet and add 50% to the price. They offer another with a vented pole piece. 50% more, they keep going where eventually they even throw in some diamond or beryllium and yes youve guessed it. It is now 30 times the price of the cheapest model. If it gets favourably tested by a magazine then it gets sold out and comes back 50% more expensive.
State of the art drivers can be made for a few dollars. Speakers are sold on market spiel and hype. How different yesterdays computer: £1000 today, into the dustbin worthless within a few year. With few exceptions most of yesterdays speakers are fit forthe dustbin
At last the cheap 2 way speakers for the mass market are with simple modern technology are blasting away the cobwebs.
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