Markus, on-wall would be really great. I have no idea why there were and still are only a few on-wall systems.
graaf, the more channels you add the more realistic the listening experience gets, as long as the recording is well made. Movies are more on these effects, creating a "wow". It is well known by professionals that multichannel recordings can be superior. SACD and DVD-A were the first really seriously marketed products with multichannel support. They are dead by now.
graaf, the more channels you add the more realistic the listening experience gets, as long as the recording is well made. Movies are more on these effects, creating a "wow". It is well known by professionals that multichannel recordings can be superior. SACD and DVD-A were the first really seriously marketed products with multichannel support. They are dead by now.
First Graaf, we don't use special effects in multi channel music, it just the music and ambiance of the hall as captured by the microphones. What the heck would we do with "special effects" in music? YOU may not desire the rear channels, and that is okay. But two channel is a step backwards from achieving any level of "reality". And all of the band aids applied to stereo(Flooders, Bose direct/reflecting, AR magic speaker,OB's) are all attempts to squeeze more out of stereo than there really is. Two channels is two channels, and room reflections(as helpful as they are) does not equal more channels, more information, or more realism.
As far as Walkers comments, if you have to reach all the way back to the 70's to make a point, your point has no legs. You are just throwing stuff against the wall as seeing what does not make it to the floor. His statement is nearly 40 years old, quad didn't have a center channel, nor are mixes done today anything like the quad mixes of the 70's. Quad emphasized movement and gimmick, today's surround is about accurate capture to enhance the "you are there" experience of listening. It is about immersion, not gimmicks.
I would strongly suggest you have A LOT more exposure to multichannel music before you make these kinds comments. With all due respect, anyone that has would think your comments are "out there". I think anyone that has had profound exposure to both stereo and multichannel sure wouldn't the comment that the rear channels aren't necessary, or does multichannel add any more realism than stereo. Only a person with little or no exposure to multichannel music would ask this.
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SACD is not quite dead yet they are still releasing content on the format. DVD-A is dead, it is not supported by anyone. Bluray disc has stepped in its place, and I have about 450 concert and video concert titles in my collection, and there are more being released weekly.
Who says you need five big speakers? My 7.1 music system uses seven mini monitors and two subwoofers. Bass management allows for the use of smaller speakers along with a sub(s). On my receiver bass management can be done digitally or in the analog domain. While the analog bass management only allows a single crossover point(80hz), that crossover point works well with a wide variety of speakers. Aside from that, there is not a lot of bass in the surround channels, so full or extended range speakers are not necessary for those channels - there really is no benefit for the added cost of full rangers in the surround channels.
Here in the states we still get a fair amount of weekly releases, mostly classical.
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ok, I see, thank You for the reply, I can understand that multichannel has advantages in conveying a sense of envelopment, LEV, ambient ie. spaciousness of the soundstage.
But can you tell me whether available multichannel formats allow for perception of apparent source width (ASW) ie. the spaciousness of a sound source?
Of course you don't need five big floorstands, each equipped with 2x 8" woofers. Using small monitors which can deliver reasonable output down to 80 Hz, together with one or more subwoofers, will be sufficient.
But let me show you the reality in Germany: Movie 3005 - Movie Series - CANTON German loudspeaker tradition (en)
A few years ago I sold dozens of these small sets from various manufacturers each year. I can remember only one time when I sold a set of Kef Q1 (and the matching center, can't remember its name). And I convinced a friend of mine to buy a set of Kef Cresta. That's all. The customers simply don't want five "big" speakers in their room. Of course they're more expensive, too, but I don't think that this is the main reason. It's the size, and often you can't attach them to the wall without banging your head everytime you walk by.
I would say yes, because there are more speakers with more information coming to the ears from various directions - much like(but not precisely) the live event itself.
In saying this, I would challenge you to listen to a well calibrated well set up multichannel system for yourself. At that point you can decide whether the rear channels add anything to the experience, or whether it is better than stereo.
I can talk all day about being a Doctor, but it is not quite the same experience as actually being one.
Exactly!
I cannot believe that is all the options available to German consumers.
You keep mentioning BIG speakers, and that is not necessary for multichannel music. You don't need BIG speakers to playback multichannel sound. Bass management give you more options than that.
So there are no other options in Germany except speakers that bang your head every time you walk by? I thought Germany was more technologically sophisticated than that.
Of course not. But that's what people actually BUY.
Read "BIG" as "BIG from customers POV". Everything bigger than the ones I linked to are BIG. Not for me, but for approx 95% of the customers, and that's not only the case in Germany.
Excuse me to use some exaggerations. Next time I put a short notice in front of it.
But it's not that strange. I can't switch to surround because the additional rear speakers would stop me from entering the living room without the danger of tripping over the speaker's cables or bumping against the speakers. And as I visited a lot of other homes, I know that many, many consumers have similar problems. And the rest simply doesn't want BIG speakers.
Face it: surround is great, but the reality in too many homes prevents its use.
So it is totally impossible to build a decent surround system from smaller/even on wall speaker system? I find that hard to believe
I can see this. Anyone who has read European based A/V magazine(as an American) can see that Europe tends to sell much smaller televisions, and bookshelf type speakers. I was kind of shocked that a poster from Europe on another site thought that a 40" television was big.
LOLOLOL.
Now I understand why so many from Europe seem so far behind the times. Aside from the size of the rooms, Europeans are just a different kind of customer than the American market is. However, given the room size difference, I am surprised that manufacturers have not figured out how to make speakers small enough to create a surround system. I did it with 7 mini monitors and two subs in a 13'x17'x10' room, and put a 55" backlit LED television in there as well. I had no problems in doing it, and adhering to both THX and SMPTE standards to boot. I am surprised that people in Europe can't do this, it is not that hard. Your comment surprises me as I thought Europeans were much more ingenious than this.
What constitutes big and small for many people is fairly often subjective. It depends on the size of the area that it's supposed to go in, and also depends on how much the person really loves their gear, or what their significant other will let them get away with.
It's also cultural in some ways, in NA I often see small women driving around in 3/4 ton turbo-diesel pickup trucks that they can barely get in and out of. I watch the guys from Top Gear in the UK talk about how large and obtuse some NA cars are...I would suspect a lot of the same ideas carry over into furnishings and lifestyle when it comes to things like audio gear.
I will if I can find one around
Thank You for Your patient reply.
Only one more question - does such a multichannel system produce precise imaging - well focused, pinpoint - characteristic of a well calibrated stereo system?
Well... I better leave that uncommented...
They have. And they build On- and In-wall speakers. But it's just very small market.
On-wall: I saw so many living rooms where the couch, the main place for listening, was directly in front of the rear wall, and the TV and front speakers direct in front of the opposite wall - 2.5m away. These mini-speakers somewhere far left/right in 2m height on the rear wall, out of the way. Serious multichannel listening? No way. Attaching on-wall speakers where they belong? Never.
In-wall: most people here live in rented appartments, you can't use in-wall speakers or your landlord will kick you out immediately.
That's the actual situation in Germany, and I'm sure all over Europe. Ever been to the UK? Some of the nicest homes in some of the nicest village are so small, the toilet is an extra building where you have to go through the backyard! Bigger homes are an very rare exception. Serious multichannel in those houses? Forget it. France? Italy? Nice little houses, with just enough room to live.
I could now write an essay why the situation is like that. It is completely different for all of the countries here in Europe.
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I've heard that finally McMansions are going out of fashion in the US too. There's probably other priorities in people's lives than having houses with 10 bathrooms or driving 14 mpg cars...
By the way, attached is home theater size data from US homes. Taken from AES Convention Paper 8310.
By the way, attached is home theater size data from US homes. Taken from AES Convention Paper 8310.
Attachments
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True, and what about other continents ? In Asia, 5 children, parents and grand parents living under the same roof. Home theater ?? Maybe Sony
And what about in Africa, home theater ?? Seriously 
It's not to complain situation in Europe, let's not forget roughly about 20000000 people is living without daily electricity in the world today.
Well, but for smallish living rooms there are good solutions
http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2400456/html/Elias_Pekonen/SingleSpeakerStereo.html
- Elias
I will if I can find one around
Thank You for Your patient reply.
Only one more question - does such a multichannel system produce precise imaging - well focused, pinpoint - characteristic of a well calibrated stereo system?
I would say a multichannel system is better at it. Rather than using two channels and phantom imaging, it uses three channels and phantom images between those. Because there is less distance between speakers, phantom images are more precise, and more stable.
With a multichannel system, the mixer can separate the tight frontal imaging from the ambience making it much more clear. You don't have to use the same pipeline to create spaciousness AND tight imaging like you do in stereo.
Yes Markus, they are going out of style. Many should not have ever been built in the first place. A lot of people that bought them really could not afford them in the first place. It is one thing to get a good price or low interest rate on a huge house, it is another to have to heat it, cool it, and maintain it.
The new generation here does not want to own a home in the suburbs. These young people don't want to own a car, don't want to get drivers licenses, and they don't want to have to drive to entertainment spots. So once again(for the second time in my relatively young life there is a migration back to cities. They certainly don't want to live the same life as their parents.
I have been living in a 6,000 sqft house for twenty years. My wife has passed away, my kids are gone, and now I am considering trading down to something less expensive and easier for me to maintain. I also consider it a waste of space for just one person.
I think it is easy to say that hometheater is much more popular here in the states than it is in Europe because of room sizes.
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